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Vierego
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Posted - 2011.03.09 23:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Vierego on 09/03/2011 23:29:09
Oops forgot to type my message.
Anyways I think buyers and sellers need more power to choose who to buy and sell from.
I understand it can lead to more chance of money laundering, but that shouldn't deny us the right to choose to who we sell to.
If someone is wardecing my corporation or insulting my character, then I should have the right to not sell to them. Same goes for the other side, you should be able to choose not to buy from someone.
I buy mission loot in bulk at above buy order prices! (sinq laison) |
Moto Akimoto
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Posted - 2011.03.09 23:51:00 -
[2]
I came to Eve from another MMO (which I played for about 3-4 years) where buyers & sellers could choose who they bought and sold to. The result was very poor player retention, trader "cliques" that only traded with each other, and the game developers could barely stay afloat with low subscriptions. In my opinion, it was one of the biggest flaws of the game.
My understanding is that Eve does give you that option though through the station trade windows, alliances, and contracts.
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Vierego
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Posted - 2011.03.10 01:26:00 -
[3]
Well that is kind of silly, there are a lot of people here would who jump at the opportunity to fill the void you made. As for the alterantives you listed yes, but that is still silly.
I buy mission loot in bulk at above buy order prices! (sinq laison) |
Moto Akimoto
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Posted - 2011.03.10 02:48:00 -
[4]
Yes, it does sound silly in theory but would traders want to fill the "void" if they had to sell 50% below market just to make the sale in Jita? Would you continue to trade if you had no fills for months yet you had the cheapest price while in the meantime you are still paying 15 Euros for monthly subscriptions? Wouldn't you get upset if your tritanium was 30% cheaper yet I would only buy from Chribba because he is in the "cool crowd"?
My observations thus far is that real traders trade and they don't care if it's with "Tom, Nick, or Harry" as long as there is profits.
But anyways its just my opinion and I only sell "rookie ships in bulk", there are many threads discussing some of these same issues. Here is one for starters: Overhaul the Market System
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Strrog
Caldari
Zero Excavations
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Posted - 2011.03.10 02:49:00 -
[5]
Hmm intersting, it sounds like a light form of a boycot vs other player :). I see 2 things happening though: 1 ) If you want to limit access to your goods - this will cost you market share, 2) If you think you controlled that market for example competitors may just charge same or extra money for the produce.
It just does not seem like a good business idea, it will hurt you more in the short/long run.
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Vierego
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Posted - 2011.03.10 15:35:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Strrog
Hmm intersting, it sounds like a light form of a boycot vs other player :). I see 2 things happening though: 1 ) If you want to limit access to your goods - this will cost you market share, 2) If you think you controlled that market for example competitors may just charge same or extra money for the produce.
It just does not seem like a good business idea, it will hurt you more in the short/long run.
Strrog, of course this hurts the seller (as well as the buyer).
Hypothetical situation that could happen.
There is a lowsec area filled with different pirate corps. You are a trader who likes to risk it and decided to take your goods there to market. You go ahead and contact a couple of the major pirate factions and say "hey look, I see you guys are getting gouged to all hell here. I'm willing to bring you guys in shipments and price them a lot fairer, which means you can reimburse your ships easier as long as you give me safe passage.
Corp 1-3 go "okay, we will tell our guys not to shoot you."
Corp 4 goes "FU YOU CAREBEAR TRADER, ROUGH RIDDDERRRSSS"
So I block corp 4 from buying my stuff (why would I sell a gun to someone who has just told me, given the chance he would turn around and shoot me in the face.)
So Now instead of imaginary goods being 17 million in Jita, 25 million here, I price it at 20 million.
Now the other traders have to react. If they are smart they will see, while before they were getting 4 sells a day at their price, now they are only getting 1 a day... Yet their price is beaten by 5 million. Which makes them conclude that some group here is blocked. They can use this to their advantage, and charge 30 million because they know the group has no other choice. (which, then leaves someone looking at the market going...hmmm this is odd, and come in and price their items).
Or they can .01 isk me to 19.9 million.
Which then leads to phase 3. Depending on either one of our capitals we could buy each other out and just relist (me because I don't want corp 4 to have ANY ships in this area now), and him because he doesn't want his margin hurt. (which then we see in transaction and can simply block one another from them doing that)
Eventually, it still ends up with me pricing my items at 20mil, maybe the other guy now that there is competition starts pricing his at 20 mil too.
Corp 1-3 are still have with me because I've effectively lowered their barrier to pvp(even if they aren't buying from me), has forsaken group 4, and so now they may be willing to escort me when I bring in trade goods so group 4 isn't a concern.
Can it be borked/ of course they can have an alt. Maybe I've just been rubbed wrong as I've been podded with a ship I sold on the market =)
I buy mission loot in bulk at above buy order prices! (sinq laison) |
Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.03.10 15:47:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 10/03/2011 15:47:26
A big reason why free markets work is precisely because they remove this and replace it with numbers.
When you buy your breakfast cereal from the supermarket, do you care about the morality of the man who made the packaging? Do you worry that you might not like the person who drove the boxes to the supermarket? How about the personality of the packer who put the box together?
Most of the people who keep you alive, you probably wouldn't like half of them if you ever met them. It takes millions of people across thousands of markets over multiple continents to sustain your standard of living.
And as was pointed out earlier in the thread - the markets serve us perfectly well without needing to know and judge the people in them.
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Roguehalo
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.10 15:49:00 -
[8]
Arms dealers have always sold to anybody with the readies 
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Durnin Stormbrow
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:09:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vierego
I understand it can lead to more chance of money laundering, but that shouldn't deny us the right to choose to who we sell to.
If someone is wardecing my corporation or insulting my character, then I should have the right to not sell to them.
I could see some value in a Do Not Serve list, but that'd probably lead to a variant of the margin trade scam.
If you are only interested in trading with specific players, just use the contract system. Myself, I'd rather have to deal with that small pita, than see the open market become a blatant laundrymat for RMT.
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Fred Barbossa
Dell Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.10 18:21:00 -
[10]
Can someone tell me exactly how they want ccp to keep track of boycotts so that I can't just buy stuff on my alt? How about my other account? Because if you can't do that this as a feature changes nothing while adding lag, bugs, scrams, and money laundering.
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Tutskii
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Posted - 2011.03.10 18:25:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 10/03/2011 15:47:26
A big reason why free markets work is precisely because they remove this and replace it with numbers.
When you buy your breakfast cereal from the supermarket, do you care about the morality of the man who made the packaging? Do you worry that you might not like the person who drove the boxes to the supermarket? How about the personality of the packer who put the box together?
Most of the people who keep you alive, you probably wouldn't like half of them if you ever met them. It takes millions of people across thousands of markets over multiple continents to sustain your standard of living.
And as was pointed out earlier in the thread - the markets serve us perfectly well without needing to know and judge the people in them.
Actually, a lot of people DO care about where their stuff comes from. I am not suggesting any kind of relevance for the game (although there may be one, say for instance a power block boycott, or such; although how that might be done and alts kept track of beats me), but the morality (or perceived morality) of the people that produce the things people wear, eat and use, or at least of the corporations representing those companies is a (significant?) factor on peoples purchasing habits.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.03.10 19:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Edited by: Liberty Eternal on 10/03/2011 15:47:26
A big reason why free markets work is precisely because they remove this and replace it with numbers.
When you buy your breakfast cereal from the supermarket, do you care about the morality of the man who made the packaging? Do you worry that you might not like the person who drove the boxes to the supermarket? How about the personality of the packer who put the box together?
Most of the people who keep you alive, you probably wouldn't like half of them if you ever met them. It takes millions of people across thousands of markets over multiple continents to sustain your standard of living.
And as was pointed out earlier in the thread - the markets serve us perfectly well without needing to know and judge the people in them.
I'm surprised to say this...but I absolutely agree with you. 
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.03.10 19:21:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hexxx
I'm surprised to say this...but I absolutely agree with you.
going...cold....somebody...hold me...
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Matalino
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:26:00 -
[14]
If you want to choose with whom you buy and sell then use contracts. The market is exclusively for those who do not care.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.03.10 22:36:00 -
[15]
you can use the contract system if you're this big a sperglord
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Nypheas Azurai
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Posted - 2011.03.11 00:04:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Matalino
If you want to choose with whom you buy and sell then use contracts. The market is exclusively for those who do not care.
Except you fail to notice contract is for a specific entity. As OP implies, what happens when you want the inverse? Sell to everyone *except* a certain player or corp. There is no support for this in EVE and along with forcing to always sell to the lowest seller makes for a noticeable gap left wanting in the market system.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.03.11 00:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Nypheas Azurai
Except you fail to notice contract is for a specific entity. As OP implies, what happens when you want the inverse? Sell to everyone *except* a certain player or corp. There is no support for this in EVE and along with forcing to always sell to the lowest seller makes for a noticeable gap left wanting in the market system.
There's no support for it in real life either. When was the last time you went into a shop where they refused to sell to a certain set of people? Maybe Alabama in the 60s, or the Third Reich. The law is that if you put something up for sale then anyone can buy it - it's not a free market unless everyone can use it.
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Matalino
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Posted - 2011.03.11 03:29:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Matalino on 11/03/2011 03:34:55
Originally by: Nypheas Azurai
Except you fail to notice contract is for a specific entity. As OP implies, what happens when you want the inverse? Sell to everyone *except* a certain player or corp.
That is a fantasy feature that simply cannot be implemented. If you want to buy something that is available to everyone except you, then you just use alt to buy it. 
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
There's no support for it in real life either. When was the last time you went into a shop where they refused to sell to a certain set of people? Maybe Alabama in the 60s, or the Third Reich. The law is that if you put something up for sale then anyone can buy it - it's not a free market unless everyone can use it.
Unless of course you use contracts. If you want only want to sell your house to someone in the family, then you can do so using a contract.
However, it is worth noting that the game market is not for trading unique items like houses. Nor is it like a store where you can choose where you want to shop.
It is like the stock/commodities market: you use a broker to place an order for a given stock/commodity, your order is then filled by any available counter-order. You have no control over who you buy from unless you exchange the stocks/commodities through a contract.
Perhaps we might see stores implemented in Incarna at some point. If that ever becomes a feature, then I see no reason why shopkeepers could not restrict access to their shops. However, the addition of such a feature is not justification for changing the current commodities market that we have.
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Clementina
Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.03.11 03:36:00 -
[19]
There are embargoes in Eve. If you declare war on Red Frog for instance, you cannot use them to haul after the war is over. But there are not many of them because goods traded in Eve are relatively undifferentiated from each other.
A long time ago, way before invention, Tech 2 ship sellers would sell their ships via websites, then escrow the ship to the person who said they wanted to buy it on the website. I bought my first Ishkur from such a website. I'm not sure if any of the old blueprint monopolies ever did, but you could engineer an embargo against certain people if you are using an out of game website to do business.
If you're selling something like tritainium, this would be foolish to set up a website to sell it. Anyone can buy it from anyone else, and Low Sec enemies probably trade with each other all the time. On the other hand, if you are an inventor and you sell blue print copies, It might make more sense to have a website to do business from and to restrict commerce to people not on your red list.
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Vierego
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Posted - 2011.03.11 05:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Liberty Eternal
Originally by: Nypheas Azurai
Except you fail to notice contract is for a specific entity. As OP implies, what happens when you want the inverse? Sell to everyone *except* a certain player or corp. There is no support for this in EVE and along with forcing to always sell to the lowest seller makes for a noticeable gap left wanting in the market system.
There's no support for it in real life either. When was the last time you went into a shop where they refused to sell to a certain set of people? Maybe Alabama in the 60s, or the Third Reich. The law is that if you put something up for sale then anyone can buy it - it's not a free market unless everyone can use it.
NO SOUP FOR YOU.
Yes, business refuse the right to serve customers all the time in RL, you just can't discriminate vs a certain group of people (like african american, hispanic, ect). I know a couple restaurants that refuse to sell to trouble makers that try to get free food.
There are charities out there that refuse donations because the person donating because they don't want to be associated with that individual/group.
Hell, our government (at least mine) has an embargo on Cuba and doesn't buy/sell goods there (oh hell who am I kidding I know we do but say we don't).
I buy mission loot in bulk at above buy order prices! (sinq laison) |
Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
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Posted - 2011.03.11 06:10:00 -
[21]
We need a better GUI. Like a right click, buy 100, right click buy out, a feature to remember item prices.
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Mini Tee
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Posted - 2011.03.11 06:20:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Mini Tee on 11/03/2011 06:21:00
@OP: Terrible idea, this would be just worse for the average guy, which usually is not a station trader and just wants to buy/sell quickly and get on with their game.
Currently the game rewards people that make the markets for being active and keeping prices at a very competitive rate.
But even if that option would be implemented, I still don't think the vast majority would give a flahhin fakk, and still just buy/sell the best order.
Originally by: Tutskii
For instance, I stopped eating KFC after I found out that KFC doesn't particularly mind its workers playing soccer with live chickens.
Well now this all depends on perspective. Your average Chinaman sure wouldn't care. I know there happens some bad stuff with livestock, but damn, this is alright with me as long as there is cheap enough food to feed everyone.
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Matalino
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Posted - 2011.03.11 17:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Vierego
NO SOUP FOR YOU.
Yes, business refuse the right to serve customers all the time in RL, you just can't discriminate vs a certain group of people (like african american, hispanic, ect). I know a couple restaurants that refuse to sell to trouble makers that try to get free food.
There are charities out there that refuse donations because the person donating because they don't want to be associated with that individual/group.
Hell, our government (at least mine) has an embargo on Cuba and doesn't buy/sell goods there (oh hell who am I kidding I know we do but say we don't).
As I have already noted in this thread: you are comparing the market to stores or business, which is an invalid comparison. The correct comparison is to a stock or commodities market, and in those cases you have no control over who you trade with.
Purhaps Incarna might be the place for the feature you are requesting, but the existing market is certainly not the place for such a feature.
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Commander Predator
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Posted - 2011.03.11 21:52:00 -
[24]
Somebody somewhere said,
"It's nothing personal, just good business"
Hello, My Name is.... |
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