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Bob Niac
Gallente Fink Operations -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.03.10 14:47:00 -
[1]
Okay ..I am looking at spaceship command skills and saying, "That is a lot of redundant skillbooks." There are also flaws in consistency.
For perspective, let's look at a real world pilot. They start out with a smal single engine trainer, something like a Cessna. They then train up to multi engine, and eventually to larger and / or faster moving planes. Sounds a lot like EVE, right?
But here is where I see a divide from real life and EVE: You dont have to get a new license to fly similar planes from different manufacturers. If you have a commercial and multi-engine license, you are legally qualified to fly a Boeing AND an Airbus. They are close enough that a small amount of training will actually make you very profficient in both.
So .. why do we have racial frigate, cruiser, battleship, even capital ship skills? Why not a centralized system with specialization skills for each race? Drones have something like that. It would reflect real world training as well.
For instance, if I want to fly a logistics ship for the 4 races, I have to train cruiser 5 for all of the races. If I want to switch to Matari ships from my original race (Gallente,) I have to go up a very lengthy chain to get comparable ships to what I have now.
What I would like to propose to strip the race from the ship skills and instead use a "<Racial> Spaceship Specialization" for tech 1 ships, capital ships need "Advanced <Racial> Spaceship Secialization," "Improved <Racial> Spaceship Specialization" for Tech 2, and "Elite <Racial> Spaceship Specialization" for tech 2 capitals.
In this way, there is a clear, vertical upgrade path for any ship, with small forks in a realistic manner to specialize in a specific ship. Battleship as a skill still requires spaceship command to be fully trained and vast "knowledge" of smaller ships. But the ship itself has a race specific skill req.
Why you may ask? Because EVE is growing, and so are the factions getting pilotable ships in the game. Players are also breaking 120k skillpoints by training multiple races (as I have inferred I fly more then one race myself.) Going foward we are going to get bogged down by confusing branches in an already large tree.
Adding an ORE spec skillbook, for exmple, allows us to consider adding similar ships to the Orca and Rorqual, and only train the appropriate faction's spec to fly them.
Obviously this is going to ruffle a lot of feathers. CCP would basically have to refund up to a quarter of a players skillpoints (yes guessing) on average, along with any isk invested so they could repurchase the correct skillbooks. Ranks of skills that havent been touched since before launch day would have to be adjusted to compensate fo the new skills.
But, in my humble opinion, it is worth it to new players to have the oppertunity to go the path they choose, and for veteran players to be able to diversify to adapt to EVE's dynamic sandbox.
Thanks, Bob
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Korg Leaf
Time Bandits. Waterboard
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Posted - 2011.03.10 14:51:00 -
[2]
I dont support this idea
If this ever made it into the game, this "<Racial> Spaceship Specialization" for tech 1 ships should take as long as training for every races t1 ship to that level. For example training that skill to level 1 should be the same as training all the frigate, cruiser, destroyer, battlecruiser and battleship skills to 1 and so on.
-------------------------------------------- Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2011.03.10 15:28:00 -
[3]
I could support this as long as the ships bonuses were tied back to the "Racial Specialization" skill instead of the basic Frigate (for example) skill.
So for example:
Frigate 3 gives you the ability to fly a Rifter (or whatever). But you have to have Minmatar Frigate specilization if you want the bonus % points to small projectiles etc.
It's the difference between being good at a lot of things or great at a few. --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Henry Haphorn
Gallente Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2011.03.10 15:50:00 -
[4]
I have a bad feeling this proposal won't work because Eve always had this original setup for years. It may seem simple to you, but don't forget that Eve Online is a complex MMO with a learning cliff that is intentionally designed to not only level the playing field for everyone in terms of being able to pilot certain ship but it's also designed to keep Eve from being flooded by players who only want a fast-paced game.
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Bob Niac
Gallente Fink Operations -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.03.10 15:57:00 -
[5]
Originally by: De'Veldrin I could support this as long as the ships bonuses were tied back to the "Racial Specialization" skill instead of the basic Frigate (for example) skill.
So for example:
Frigate 3 gives you the ability to fly a Rifter (or whatever). But you have to have Minmatar Frigate specilization if you want the bonus % points to small projectiles etc.
It's the difference between being good at a lot of things or great at a few.
That is the basic idea. A frigate would require the friggy skill and the racial spec skill. The traditional spaceship command requirement would be removed in lieu of Minmatar Spaceship Specialization I and spaceship command would be solely a prerequisite of the actual Frigate skill. (In your example)
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Bob Niac
For perspective, let's look at a real world pilot. They start out with a smal single engine trainer, something like a Cessna. They then train up to multi engine, and eventually to larger and / or faster moving planes. Sounds a lot like EVE, right?
In real life there are not 4 completely different propulsion systems (fusion, ion, magpulse, plasma) 4 completely different electronic systems, (gravimetry, magnetometry, radar, ladar) 4 completely different weapons technologies (projectile/htbrid/energy/missiles), 4 completely different capacitor technologys (electrolytic/oscillator/scalar/tesseract) 4 different reactor technologies (fusion/nuclear/antimatter/graviton) and so on (armour and sheilds are also individual and distinct) before you even consider each race will no doubt have designed everything with different specifications, computer software and of course languages.
Flying a cesna does not qualify you to fly rockets, scramjets and helicopters, nor does it qualify you to use ladar, magnetographs or sonar, nor does it qualify you to use any sort of reactor.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:16:00 -
[7]
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:33:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Doddy on 10/03/2011 16:36:10
Originally by: Goose99 Edited by: Goose99 on 10/03/2011 16:26:34
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Bob Niac
For perspective, let's look at a real world pilot. They start out with a smal single engine trainer, something like a Cessna. They then train up to multi engine, and eventually to larger and / or faster moving planes. Sounds a lot like EVE, right?
In real life there are not 4 completely different propulsion systems (fusion, ion, magpulse, plasma) 4 completely different electronic systems, (gravimetry, magnetometry, radar, ladar) 4 completely different weapons technologies (projectile/htbrid/energy/missiles), 4 completely different capacitor technologys (electrolytic/oscillator/scalar/tesseract) 4 different reactor technologies (fusion/nuclear/antimatter/graviton) and so on (armour and sheilds are also individual and distinct) before you even consider each race will no doubt have designed everything with different specifications, computer software and of course languages.
Flying a cesna does not qualify you to fly rockets, scramjets and helicopters, nor does it qualify you to use ladar, magnetographs or sonar, nor does it qualify you to use any sort of reactor.
Lore don't necessarily make for good game mechanics.
Nor does real life. This proposal simply wants to cut down training time on advanced ships. If you think this is a good idea (i don't) you can do it without trampling on the lore. The fundamental premise is that a basilisk and a scimitar are somehow more alike than a scimitar and a munin which is wrong on so many levels.
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4C 4F 5645
Rogue Drone Systems
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:33:00 -
[9]
I don't support it. The fact that there is a lot of potential sideways training is what makes it so new players have a shot at being competitive by focusing on flying one faction or even ship type well. It also gives the different races more character.
Since there is no skill cap there has to be "skill sinks" in the game. Wanting to fly some fancy faction ship you aren't trained for is such a sink, if they were made any easier to get into they'd have to nerf them back down to hangar decoration.
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E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:37:00 -
[10]
Do not support.
It is more akin to piloting a Russian fighter Vs an American Fighter. Yes similar and all your suport skills are great, but you still need to train for THAT plane.
Also how does piloting a caldari ship let you pilit a mimnitar ship that works on duck tape and hope? ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin |
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Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: 4C 4F 5645 I don't support it. The fact that there is a lot of potential sideways training is what makes it so new players have a shot at being competitive by focusing on flying one faction or even ship type well. It also gives the different races more character.
This is the best point. Under such a streamlined system spacialisation is hurt which gives less oppurtunity for new players to "catch up" or even overtake older players. Under the proposed system my 2003 char would probably be maxed for every sub-cap ship (and even capitals if i read it right) A new player could never have a better char than me for anything. In the current system pretty much any new player who specialises is anything other than amarr bs can overtake me in their chosen specialisation. This is how it should be.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.03.10 16:44:00 -
[12]
Originally by: E man Industries Do not support.
It is more akin to piloting a Russian fighter Vs an American Fighter. Yes similar and all your suport skills are great, but you still need to train for THAT plane.
Also how does piloting a caldari ship let you pilit a mimnitar ship that works on duck tape and hope?
That's the thing, it shouldn't, but does atm. The advanced ship skills cover all 4 factions. The proposal is to make it cover only one faction, but more ship within that faction.
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Di Mulle
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Posted - 2011.03.10 17:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bob Niac Edited by: Bob Niac on 10/03/2011 16:04:25 For perspective, let's look at a real world pilot. They start out with a smal single engine trainer, something like a Cessna. They then train up to multi engine, and eventually to larger and / or faster moving planes. Sounds a lot like EVE, right?
But here is where I see a divide from real life and EVE: You dont have to get a new license to fly similar planes from different manufacturers. If you have a commercial and multi-engine license, you are legally qualified to fly a Boeing AND an Airbus. They are close enough that a small amount of training will actually make you very profficient in both.
Fully qualifying to fly a new type of a big commercial airplane is a big deal for a pilot and takes years.
Besides, any RL analogies are barely relevant in the game.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.03.10 17:18:00 -
[14]
It doesn't take that long to crosstrain if your basic skills are in order.
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Bob Niac
Gallente Fink Operations -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.03.10 17:20:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Bob Niac on 10/03/2011 17:25:56
Originally by: E man Industries Do not support.
It is more akin to piloting a Russian fighter Vs an American Fighter. Yes similar and all your suport skills are great, but you still need to train for THAT plane.
Also how does piloting a caldari ship let you pilit a mimnitar ship that works on duck tape and hope?
So using your example:
I am a pilot in the US air force. I have extensive training in say, an F-15 Eagle. I am told that I am to train for a Mig 29 for a covert mission. Are you saying that because I have flown twin engine jet fighters for several years minimum, I cannot fly another twin engine jet AT ALL? That my experience as a pilot means NOTHING? Or are you saying, like myself, it should only be a small amount of specialized training to learn the nuances of the craft?
Edit; just so we are clear:
You would need to train 'Spaceship Command' to a certain level to enable a ship skill. If it is a higher tier skill, you also need the class below that. But instead of training for frig > cruiser > battleship, etc. in each race, you would train the appropriate racial secondary skill to either pilot a racial ship, or receive bonuses. Haven't decided on that.
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Majid Al'Amarr
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Posted - 2011.03.10 18:56:00 -
[16]
Real world aviation requires pilot have a "type certificate" for any aircraft over 12,500lbs they fly, Therefore, the current ship skills seem entirely appropriate given your "real world" scenario
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mkmin
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Posted - 2011.03.10 19:02:00 -
[17]
The flaw with your argument is that a frig is the size of a boeing. It takes maybe 5 minutes to cross-train racial frigs. There ya go.
Training from a harrier to an f-15 to a sherman tank to an aircraft carrier is probably RL analogues but even then still not there. Don't pretend story (in game or RL) has anything to do with what makes a good game.
Does it make sense to not have to cross-train races? Not really, no. The system might be able to use a little bit of trimming up, but the current system of encouraging specialization (and thus cooperation) is a good thing.
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Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.03.10 20:07:00 -
[18]
Different races ships are nothing like the difference between Boeing and Airbus.
Its closer to the difference between the Saturn 5 and the Russian ship of the time (not that close, but they'll do). You can't go from one to the other without hours of training.
In EVE, different race ships use completely different system setups, and completely different direct interfaces (not to be confused with the UI, as that is generated by the pod). Like the difference between driving auto and stick.
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Mr LaboratoryRat
Confederation of DuckTape Lovers
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Posted - 2011.03.10 21:55:00 -
[19]
making isk is not, go make a few bil and buy new char....
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Kumi Katana
Caldari Order of the Orange Lion
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Posted - 2011.03.14 15:03:00 -
[20]
Actually a good one, skills are often done 4 times to get each race. Besides that it takes way to long to learn them all, specially if you add in the fitting that will be required as well.
So making 4 skills into 1 and then in some what shorter time periods, then I mean the lvl 3-5 skills, the rest is easy. This should solve the problem. However, I fear CCP will refuse this since they want you to pay up for the game, so giving you a lot of time needed for the skills, insures them they will get payed more. So unfortunately this good post has a bad side and may never be solved. I hope I will get in CSM6, then I will try my best to get at least something done in this.
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Janos Saal
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Posted - 2011.03.14 15:38:00 -
[21]
Nope.
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Shawna Gray
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.03.14 20:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bob Niac
For perspective, let's look at a real world pilot.
Lets not. Its a bad idea along with the rest of your post.
Its good the way it is.
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Ulfsark Vegtamson
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Posted - 2011.03.15 00:10:00 -
[23]
Seems stupid. Just because you can fly an F-17 doesn't mean you can fly a JF-17.
Remember, each race reached space seperately. They have their own technology that is unique to themselves. THAT is why each race has different skills.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.03.15 02:17:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Goose99 on 15/03/2011 02:18:52
Originally by: Ulfsark Vegtamson Seems stupid. Just because you can fly an F-17 doesn't mean you can fly a JF-17.
Remember, each race reached space seperately. They have their own technology that is unique to themselves. THAT is why each race has different skills.
Again and again, people say the exact reasons why they agree with OP's idea, and then turn around and say they disagree. It's contradictory. The idea is, right now, skills like Logi, hac, hic, etc, are all cross racial. Each skill applies to all 4 races. OP wanted to change it so that each cover only 1 race, but multiple ship types within that race (e.g. HAC + HIC + logi of 1 race, instead of 4 races of HACs). You post sound like you agree with OP's idea. |
Lykouleon
Bad Kitty Inc.
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Posted - 2011.03.15 05:24:00 -
[25]
The rent is also too **** high.
Nerf rent Don't click on this. No, really, don't, it'll make your eyes bleed. |
ArtieLange
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Posted - 2011.03.15 11:14:00 -
[26]
What have we to google? I'll get right on it, you just need to be more specific.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.03.15 15:31:00 -
[27]
Maybe in teh world of Eve the mechanics and systems of the different races and ships are different. Your logis is flawed and Eve isn't forced to use logic. -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.03.15 15:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: 4C 4F 5645 I don't support it. The fact that there is a lot of potential sideways training is what makes it so new players have a shot at being competitive by focusing on flying one faction or even ship type well. It also gives the different races more character.
Since there is no skill cap there has to be "skill sinks" in the game. Wanting to fly some fancy faction ship you aren't trained for is such a sink, if they were made any easier to get into they'd have to nerf them back down to hangar decoration.
Where's Malcanis with his law when you need it?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues
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Posted - 2011.03.16 05:36:00 -
[29]
Most of the skill training required to be good at flying; is more related to non-spaceship command related skills. That is: Engineering, Navigation, Gunnery, Industry, ...and whatever else. Training for Minmatar Cruiser, is a matter of Days; heck, I picked up Orca, Transports, and Freighters; all within the last month and a half, on one toon. On another, I dropped training guns for a bit; and I'm picking up Minmatar Cruiser V. I only have 12-1/2 days left on that; for which I'll net a new race of HAC's, T3's, and various other craft. That toon has only 15 million SP; and is Tech II Armor and Shield tank, and Tech II Heavy Missiles, and Small and Medium projectiles. Even got Sentry Drones at Tech II, in there.
Point is, it does not take too long. A week for each Frigate, a month for each Cruiser; and some 45 days for each Battleship, more or less. Given the amount, and variation of skills you can train in EVE; that's hardly too much time to waste, for the sake of access to a new range of ships.
Take a look at the ships. Each follows a different design philosophy; so to, it's engineered along a different path. It's not a Volkswagon Jetta; that you can get in, and just drive. It's a complex, space-faring machine; in which you, are the entirety of the crew.
Ask how long it takes NASA; to train their pilots. ..or the airforce, how long it takes to train for an F-35. We're not talking bicycles, and pick-up trucks.
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Corel Drau
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Posted - 2011.03.17 14:51:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shawna Gray
Originally by: Bob Niac
For perspective, let's look at a real world pilot.
Lets not. Its a bad idea along with the rest of your post.
Its good the way it is.
Exactly. The system works as it is in the context of EVE, which is the only relevance needed. Also real-world pilot training and type certification is more complex than OP thinks it is.
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