| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
   |
Posted - 2011.03.16 01:38:00 -
[1]
Hello,
it dawned on me that PLEX price oscillations suck and their highs come exactly when I'd need them cheap to convert ISK into them.
I'd like to protect the Donors sacrifices in some way, the first that comes to mind would be to create a floating hedge fund whose assets value would grow / shrink in the opposite direction of PLEXes. Basically something like Isotopes vs Robotics.
When the hedge fund (don't mistake it for a speculation hedge fund!) would grow, the plusvalence would be transferred to the charity fund. The contrary won't happen, as the charity fund is a pure black hole and what enters there won't come back.
Now, while I am not seeking for investors for such a thing (I'd be a volounteer effort of mine I suppose) what I'd need is if someone with deep markets knowledge like Akita T would please hint me about what portfolio of assets could possibly act as viable hedge against PLEXes variations.
Thanks in advance.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Elise DarkStar
|
Posted - 2011.03.16 01:44:00 -
[2]
Neat idea. I'm up for a challenge, so I'll give it some thought.
|
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2011.03.16 07:01:00 -
[3]
Why not just act as a PLEX Warehouse with a low rate of growth, always stabilizing the PLEX market or at least attempting to stabilize?
The reason I mention this is this concept was the original idea in which Block created the original design of the Mineral Reserve. In an attempt to stabilize the mineral market price a slow progression of buying and selling of minerals with low profit profiles would stabilize the market somewhat. The design changed a little in the second incarnation of the reserve but the original concept was and is still there.
The fact it's just one item, which a majority of market transactions for that item happen in a single location. Would make this somewhat easier then a minerals. When demand is high and price starts to climb, the PLEX Reserve would release PLEXes to any order above a threshold which represented a low profit. When the market is crashing and PLEX Price is decreasing the PLEX Reserve would purchase PLEXes blow a threshold which would lower the sell threshold.
After a while, the PLEXs would naturally be lowered to a equilibrium between buy and sell with little variance between the buy and sell plus market fees.
Amarr for Life |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.03.16 10:45:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: SencneS
Why not just act as a PLEX Warehouse with a low rate of growth, always stabilizing the PLEX market or at least attempting to stabilize?
Don't you think it'd take a staggering amount of billions to do this?
I need to counter-balance just about 12-14B in PLEXes, the warehouse would factually create a deleveraged equity of something like 1:100 or below.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
Estel Arador
|
Posted - 2011.03.16 16:38:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I'd like to protect the Donors sacrifices in some way, the first that comes to mind would be to create a floating hedge fund whose assets value would grow / shrink in the opposite direction of PLEXes.
Why is the first thing that comes to your mind always something overly complicated?
(And again, why does it need its own thread?)
You're in the business of stocking PLEX until there's a CCP charity drive. It's "buy and forget", it can't be any simpler. If PLEX prices are too high, put up a buy order at a price which will be acceptable and wait till the prices drop again. There you go, everyone's interest is protected, and it cost you 0 extra effort.
|
Fulbert
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.03.16 17:45:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Fulbert on 16/03/2011 17:46:29
Ask any charity fundation member if it's even remotely imaginable to "secure" its money in a high-volatility fund : "are you kidding, sir?".
The better solution is the most simple. Set buy orders with the money. Hoard PLEX's. Resell them when they are spiking for non-charity related reasons. Give everything to CCP when "PLEX for x" comes out again.
By the way, blocking ISKs in long-term market orders is way more risky than simply stacking PLEX's. Anything can completly screw all your long-term MD elite predictions.
TL;DR : Hell, no
____________________________________
Fulbert
Industrialist - Casual Trader
EVE Online, the best browser MMO of them all |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.03.16 19:08:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 16/03/2011 19:10:37
Quote:
Why is the first thing that comes to your mind always something overly complicated?
Hedging has been invented in the same day they invented futures: ancient Greece.
It does not seem that complicated to me, people do it all days long.
IE those banks offering you those low yield "balanced securities portfolios" are doing exactly that.
Quote:
You're in the business of stocking PLEX until there's a CCP charity drive. It's "buy and forget", it can't be any simpler. If PLEX prices are too high, put up a buy order at a price which will be acceptable and wait till the prices drop again
PLEXes are on the rise ATM and I don't know if I can wait till they drop down, I can't get late to the CCP campaign deadline.
Also, I posted it in the main thread, I don't have any CN trade alt (I am not even a proper trader) so the broker fees are so big I may as well use sell orders (aka what I wanted to avoid).
Quote:
Ask any charity fundation member if it's even remotely imaginable to "secure" its money in a high-volatility fund : "are you kidding, sir?".
The charity fund is staying as is, this would be a new one paid by me alone to create a plusvalence to transfer into the charity fund.
Plusvalence => goes to charity fund.
Minusvalence is paid by me, there is never a cent taken of the charity fund.
Quote:
The better solution is the most simple. Set buy orders with the money
Forbidden by the fund rules. Nothing EVER comes out of it except:
- Possible BoD wages (currently there's no BoD so this equals to zero).
- Contracts fee and rental fees (currently paid by me so equal to zero in the charity fund P.O.V.).
- When CCP will receive PLEXes during their RL relief campaigns.
Quote:
By the way, blocking ISKs in long-term market orders is way more risky than simply stacking PLEX's. Anything can completly screw all your long-term MD elite predictions
This is a 100% paid by me risk and effort and the charity fund will never lose a cent whatever happens.
How I risk my money and why I risk it for a charity fund is my business.
-
Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
|
TomHorn
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2011.03.16 21:28:00 -
[8]
Quote:
This is a 100% paid by me risk and effort and the charity fund will never lose a cent whatever happens.
How I risk my money and why I risk it for a charity fund is my business.
This is a very generous thing for you to do and i wish you good luck with it.
Although i think to have a VV charity which i believe CHRIBBA holds everything and have a VV charity hedge fund is not a good idea. "VV charity hedge fund" people start thinking scam, bernie madoff and badboy bobby. Which might be un helpful for the charity.
If you think it will help do it , my advice would not to call it that or link it with the charity , do it privately and contact chribba privately when you want to transfer funds to the charity.
My other advice regarding the charity is advertising , more people who know about it more chance of donations.
Eve news 24 , eoh poker ,somner blink, try and get people to link it in there bios's.
Good Luck
TH
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 00:20:00 -
[9]
Last post before going to bed.
@Estel Arador
I forgot to add: regarding creating several child threads vs posting in the charity thread:
I believe the main thread needs to stay clean, these child threads are about some side activities and could become several pages each. I don't want to have a threadnaught made of badly stitched quasi-offtopics, it distracts people from the charity "mission".
Originally by: TomHorn
Quote:
This is a 100% paid by me risk and effort and the charity fund will never lose a cent whatever happens.
How I risk my money and why I risk it for a charity fund is my business.
This is a very generous thing for you to do and i wish you good luck with it.
Although i think to have a VV charity which i believe CHRIBBA holds everything and have a VV charity hedge fund is not a good idea. "VV charity hedge fund" people start thinking scam, bernie madoff and badboy bobby. Which might be un helpful for the charity.
If you think it will help do it , my advice would not to call it that or link it with the charity , do it privately and contact chribba privately when you want to transfer funds to the charity.
My other advice regarding the charity is advertising , more people who know about it more chance of donations.
Eve news 24 , eoh poker ,somner blink, try and get people to link it in there bios's.
Good Luck
TH
There's no charity hedge fund.
There is one sealed corporation managing a sealed charity fund. These receive ISK and PLEXes and that's it.
In the background, there *might* be a second fund created to funnel its ISK into the above.
The latter is not really an "hedge fund" but a fund born to hedge. I.e. it's a sort of ISK battery that would pump its value in the charity fund (and never the contrary) when its assets create a plusvalence over PLEXes.
Anyway I fear this thread is not going anywhere because the people-in-the-know I hoped to see seemingly decided not to show their face.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Estel Arador
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 01:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
@Estel Arador
I forgot to add: regarding creating several child threads vs posting in the charity thread:
I believe the main thread needs to stay clean, these child threads are about some side activities and could become several pages each. I don't want to have a threadnaught made of badly stitched quasi-offtopics, it distracts people from the charity "mission".
You may be keeping your thread clean, but you do it at the cost of a section of the forums. The entropy has to go somewhere.
|
Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 01:04:00 -
[11]
2012's going to be a busy year. Idk if we have enough plex in EVE to handle the end of the world
---
RL Meeting w/ Chribba
|
Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 01:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Cheque Please
2012's going to be a busy year. Idk if we have enough plex in EVE to handle the end of the world
/me checks wallet. Yeah I'm good for myself.
|
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 01:42:00 -
[13]
Personally, I like a thread per topic. The issue at hand is general enough to deserve its own thread. Perhaps, rename the thread to "Possible Hedge Fund to Protect Investment Funds".
Going back to Plexes.
It sounds like you did not buy the Plexes when the ISK was donated, otherwise raising prices shouldnÆt be a big issue. If you were holding to the ISK, rather than Plexes, then you definitely over exposed the fund to price risk.
One strategy that might work is the market neutral strategy by holding long and short positions. This is basically what Fulbert proposed. I think this is a very reasonable approach to Plexes since you canÆt hedge using any other commodity in EVE.
In addition, you need to realize that you canÆt hedge the ôcharityö fund if you are going to treat it as a black hole. This simply does not work. Your idea of creating a separate fund to dump ISK into the black hole is not hedging.
If I had the time I would launch a Tritanium Hedge Fund ¬ or a Plex Reserve based on market neutral strategies. BTW, this is in part what I do with the Mineral Indices.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Syds Sinclair
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 03:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Why is the first thing that comes to your mind always something overly complicated?
(And again, why does it need its own thread?)
You're in the business of stocking PLEX until there's a CCP charity drive. It's "buy and forget", it can't be any simpler. If PLEX prices are too high, put up a buy order at a price which will be acceptable and wait till the prices drop again. There you go, everyone's interest is protected, and it cost you 0 extra effort.
..Of course VV could go the simple route and and just offer all services for free.
And not think about optimal business strats.
And religiously keep a thread updated advertising a free service.
And devalue a service that has much value.
FREE JUMP CLONES!
|
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 05:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Don't you think it'd take a staggering amount of billions to do this?
I need to counter-balance just about 12-14B in PLEXes, the warehouse would factually create a deleveraged equity of something like 1:100 or below.
Well I didn't say it would be easy or cheap just would solve the issue at hand 
Even on a small scale with a small amount of PLEXes in inventory could be enough to adjust the market trend in the direction you require to "stabilize" it.
The big problem with PLEXes is a lot of people including myself monitor/track their price and take opportunities to buy/sell them when the market is ripe. Knowing someone out there will screw the opportunity of quick short term gains at a moments notice would deter a good number of people who view them like I do.
I'd be less inclined to buy them cheap, and sell them high if I knew at a moments notice you could come along and dump your inventory in an attempt to keep the price low. Remove those traders that consider PLEXes in this way by advocating and using ISK to stabilize the market would most certainly lower the speed in which PLEXes raise and lower in price. While they would still fluctuate, the frequency and speed of that fluctuation would be less noticeable. The less noticeable it becomes the more likely people such as myself would just not bother with using PLEXes in a way to make short term quick gains.
Sure, it would take loads of ISK, but we're talking about doing something to help everyone play EVE at reasonable price or time usage. In my mind PLEXes shouldn't be something people trade for pure profit, from a "game" perspective they have NO place in EVE, at least in terms of environment. These are "CCP" usable items, not "EVE" usable. The only function they serve is to allow you to play the game longer. While I have no qualms about using them for profit generation, using them this way they are not in the "spirit" of New Eden. So devising something to stabilize their price is not anti-capitalism or outside of the spirit of EVE, but a 3rd party service to assist those who use PLEX to continue to play EVE.
Amarr for Life |
Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 05:23:00 -
[16]
IF there is a 2% or higher spread between buy and sell of plexes, I will actively work to make it closer (indirectly, I am just buying and selling them really :D). From the looks of it, a lot of people do this as well. Just how would VV (or anyone, really) stabilize it?
The attempt to market manip plex of a couple months back came to mind. And I think that guy had way deeper pockets than VV.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 08:26:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 17/03/2011 08:26:23
Originally by: Block Ukx
It sounds like you did not buy the Plexes when the ISK was donated
Well, if you check the relevant post: it says we got the massive ISK donation... yesterday.
I did not have *that* much time to grab PLEXes cheap.
I still want to defend Roguehalo's hard earned money with my nails. I owe this to him.
Originally by: SencneS
In my mind PLEXes shouldn't be something people trade for pure profit, from a "game" perspective they have NO place in EVE, at least in terms of environment. These are "CCP" usable items, not "EVE" usable.
This is not exactly what CCP created PLEXes for.
CCP created PLEXes with at least the following intents:
1) First and foremost as hard cap for competing RMT money sellers. Thus PLEXes have to have a floating value and be "responsive".
2) To create a forward liability vs the players. Players go long on PLEX (aka CCP "Futures"), CCP goes short, acts as market maker and takes the anticipated money.
3) The liability is constantly reduced by newer and newer sinks. Therefore CCP sells futures for money and then ends up sinking them. It's the Perfect Liability, the one that deletes itself over time.
4) In case of emergencies, the PLEX money's revenues will be a genius way to avoid paying part of the due taxes. CCP burns liability paid at full and keeps the difference between the taxes they'd have had to pay for the burned PLEXes derived revenue minus the tax exempt donations.
They indeed hired an economist for something.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Estel Arador
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 14:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Syds Sinclair
..Of course VV could go the simple route and and just offer all services for free.
I wouldn't advise anyone to offer all their services for free. I offered only one for free.
Originally by: Syds Sinclair
And not think about optimal business strats.
I did think about that actually, factoring in effort as well as profit. From what I can deduce from public posts, MicanG made about 20 billion in 20 months running his very successful jumpclone service (charging 15M per character, with some discounts available). I made about 17 billion in 22 months, which isn't that much worse, considering I didn't have to track payments or client standings as MicanG had to.
Originally by: Syds Sinclair
And religiously keep a thread updated advertising a free service.
Exactly, one thread only. Not a new thread every other day.
Originally by: Syds Sinclair
And devalue a service that has much value.
Most of that is due to game mechanic changes, but don't let facts get in the way of your argument
Red Moon Rising - Introduction of Jumpclones - Services charge: 15M
Revelations I - Reduced standing requirements - Services charge: 10M-15M
[October 2007] - MicanG ends his service, more competition - Services charge: 5M-10M
Quantum Rise - Simpler corp standings calculations - Services charge: 0M- 5M
Originally by: Syds Sinclair
FREE JUMP CLONES!
Exactly!
|
Syds Sinclair
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 14:44:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Estel Arador
Originally by: Syds Sinclair
..Of course VV could go the simple route and and just offer all services for free.
I wouldn't advise anyone to offer all their services for free. I offered only one for free.
..All I can think of is "Nuh Uh! Only one! Just one service for free!! MOMMY!"
Free jump clones for everyone!!
Free Signatures also!!
No interest loans as well!
Ships and mods for only the price of mins!
|
Mister Rocknrolla
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 15:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Don't you think it'd take a staggering amount of billions to do this?
I need to counter-balance just about 12-14B in PLEXes, the warehouse would factually create a deleveraged equity of something like 1:100 or below.
Well I didn't say it would be easy or cheap just would solve the issue at hand
Even on a small scale with a small amount of PLEXes in inventory could be enough to adjust the market trend in the direction you require to "stabilize" it.
The big problem with PLEXes is a lot of people including myself monitor/track their price and take opportunities to buy/sell them when the market is ripe. Knowing someone out there will screw the opportunity of quick short term gains at a moments notice would deter a good number of people who view them like I do.
I'd be less inclined to buy them cheap, and sell them high if I knew at a moments notice you could come along and dump your inventory in an attempt to keep the price low. Remove those traders that consider PLEXes in this way by advocating and using ISK to stabilize the market would most certainly lower the speed in which PLEXes raise and lower in price. While they would still fluctuate, the frequency and speed of that fluctuation would be less noticeable. The less noticeable it becomes the more likely people such as myself would just not bother with using PLEXes in a way to make short term quick gains.
Sure, it would take loads of ISK, but we're talking about doing something to help everyone play EVE at reasonable price or time usage. In my mind PLEXes shouldn't be something people trade for pure profit, from a "game" perspective they have NO place in EVE, at least in terms of environment. These are "CCP" usable items, not "EVE" usable. The only function they serve is to allow you to play the game longer. While I have no qualms about using them for profit generation, using them this way they are not in the "spirit" of New Eden. So devising something to stabilize their price is not anti-capitalism or outside of the spirit of EVE, but a 3rd party service to assist those who use PLEX to continue to play EVE.
Someone used the phrase "mission creep" in the other thread.
This thread also seems to be enlarging the scope of the original intent of the project.
As someone stated above in this thread...the concept "collect isk, buy plex, send to CCP" is simple and clean. I never thought of the fund sitting on a pile of isk, only a pile of PLEX. I pictured the fund collecting isk throughout the day, purchasing PLEX once per day, and ending the day with...say...no more than 500M in liquid isk daily.
Just thoughts from the penny-seats.
 |
Roguehalo
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 15:48:00 -
[21]
Quote :-
"As someone stated above in this thread...the concept "collect isk, buy plex, send to CCP" is simple and clean. I never thought of the fund sitting on a pile of isk, only a pile of PLEX. I pictured the fund collecting isk throughout the day, purchasing PLEX once per day, and ending the day with...say...no more than 500M in liquid isk daily."
I agree with this. In fact maybe CCP can be approached with the suggestion that the isk be turned over to them and they turn the isk into cash.(using some agreed formula).
This would avoid the problem of efforts like this distorting the market in the event of needing to convert large amounts of isk into plexes in a very short space of time.
|
Estel Arador
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 16:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
Someone used the phrase "mission creep" in the other thread.
Indeed.
Originally by: Roguehalo
I agree with this. In fact maybe CCP can be approached with the suggestion that the isk be turned over to them and they turn the isk into cash.(using some agreed formula).
This would avoid the problem of efforts like this distorting the market in the event of needing to convert large amounts of isk into plexes in a very short space of time.
CCP will use any ISK to buy PLEX from the market anyway.
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.03.17 17:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
I pictured the fund collecting isk throughout the day, purchasing PLEX once per day, and ending the day with...say...no more than 500M in liquid isk daily
Lots of money came in yesterday, not a lot of time to buy PLEX "once per day".
Originally by: Estel Arador
Exactly, one thread only. Not a new thread every other day.
I am not going to add 1000 semi-offtopic tangent activities in a thread with one scope.
Despite what you believe, creating collateral threads is not done to promote whatever visibility. Bumping the main one by adding all this other stuff would do much better since it'd be at the top all the time.
Though I don't want that a random guy coming from another forum smacks his face in a mega-thread full of things not really related with the charity core "business".
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |