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[Proposal] Fix Cloaking

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Elena Stormbringer	Posted - 2011.03.22 10:44:00 - [1] I'm sure there are many of these threads, but I thought I'd start my own ones and present my ideas on the situation. Hopefully you can all give your ideas and comments on mine! First I'll explain why I feel this way: For me, this would help balance 0.0 combat a little bit more effectively. If you have a bomber or force recon ship which sits AFK in your system (you have sovereignty 5) it can be quite frustrating because it puts a halt to all activity in your system(s). What I propose is the following: 1. Provide an alliance with a sovereignty upgrade (or a POS module) which scans the system for any ships who have an active cloak. This way if the person is in the system waiting for a juicy target all they need to do is keep moving between safe spots (they have no disadvantage IF THEY ARE ACTIVE). It feels like its quite unfair that one can simply fly off into space cloaked for hours and then decide to come back at any time and search for targets. In all situations there should always be at least one way to counter the strategy. The way I propose the module works is that the FC (or whomever is in the highest position in the fleet i.e. Squad Commander if no Wing or Fleet Commander is present) is able to use the module to scan the system and warp the fleet into the location from the POS. 2. I don't support the idea of probes that decloak targets simply because it will not solve the problem, if you have a self-made safe somewhere and cloak up the probe won't hit you anyway (unless its a system wide effect), however I find that 1. makes more sense. Guys, I know I'm revisiting a very much discussed topic but I hope you can comment on my ideas. I'm really looking for some opinions! Thanks a lot, I'll be replying to your comments!
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 10:50:00 - [2] Cloaking is fine. Just man up and rat if you are sure he is AFK, and if he is afk this wouldnt solve it anyway as you can make an unprobable cyno stiletto that you would never catch and he can just go afk in that. Also as im sure it will get pointed out, this has been suggested before.
Elena Stormbringer	Posted - 2011.03.22 10:53:00 - [3] Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 10:54:12 Originally by: Korg Tronix Cloaking is fine. Just man up and rat if you are sure he is AFK, and if he is afk this wouldnt solve it anyway as you can make an unprobable cyno stiletto that you would never catch and he can just go afk in that. Also as im sure it will get pointed out, this has been suggested before. If you warp in a Dramiel to catch the stiletto when he is AFK flying into space then I argue you would be able to catch him. *Edit: The covert cyno is the issue.
Janos Saal	Posted - 2011.03.22 10:58:00 - [4] Not supported.
Elena Stormbringer	Posted - 2011.03.22 11:01:00 - [5] Originally by: Janos Saal Not supported. Thank you for your reason.
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 11:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Elena Stormbringer Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 10:54:12 Originally by: Korg Tronix Cloaking is fine. Just man up and rat if you are sure he is AFK, and if he is afk this wouldnt solve it anyway as you can make an unprobable cyno stiletto that you would never catch and he can just go afk in that. Also as im sure it will get pointed out, this has been suggested before. If you warp in a Dramiel to catch the stiletto when he is AFK flying into space then I argue you would be able to catch him. *Edit: The covert cyno is the issue. If that stilleto goes to his usual safe spot that dramiel wont catch him. Covert ships as in the ones that can fit the cov ops cloak, have already got plenty of drawbacks for the ability to fit the cov ops cloak.
Elena Stormbringer	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:00:00 - [7] Originally by: Korg Tronix Originally by: Elena Stormbringer Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 10:54:12 Originally by: Korg Tronix Cloaking is fine. Just man up and rat if you are sure he is AFK, and if he is afk this wouldnt solve it anyway as you can make an unprobable cyno stiletto that you would never catch and he can just go afk in that. Also as im sure it will get pointed out, this has been suggested before. If you warp in a Dramiel to catch the stiletto when he is AFK flying into space then I argue you would be able to catch him. *Edit: The covert cyno is the issue. If that stilleto goes to his usual safe spot that dramiel wont catch him. Covert ships as in the ones that can fit the cov ops cloak, have already got plenty of drawbacks for the ability to fit the cov ops cloak. If we have a cyno jammer then why should a covert cyno be able to be activated in the system?
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:14:00 - [8] Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 12:14:13 Originally by: Elena Stormbringer too much pyramids How will the change you are suggested stop this from occurring? In your OP you say that the change wont affect active cloakers only AFK ones, but AFK ones dont light cyno's.
Salli Nerval	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:14:00 - [9] sure you can open a covert cyno in a cyno jammed system. and no support for your idea, it is one of the less things you can do against bots.
Elena Stormbringer	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:17:00 - [10] Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 12:18:34 Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 12:17:32 Originally by: Korg Tronix Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 12:14:13 Originally by: Elena Stormbringer too much pyramids How will the change you are suggested stop this from occurring? In your OP you say that the change wont affect active cloakers only AFK ones, but AFK ones dont light cyno's. My suggestion is introducing a module that scans for cloaking ships, so if they go AFK they will be exposed because they are not moving (between safes). I don't want to get off topic and discuss covert cynos. Edit: Spelling..
Elena Stormbringer Pelican. Violent Entity	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Salli Nerval sure you can open a covert cyno in a cyno jammed system. and no support for your idea, it is one of the less things you can do against bots. My suggestion was to counter AFK pilots, not to remove the covert cyno in a cyno jammed system.
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 12:22:50 Originally by: Elena Stormbringer Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 12:18:34 Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 12:17:32 Originally by: Korg Tronix Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 12:14:13 Originally by: Elena Stormbringer too much pyramids How will the change you are suggested stop this from occurring? In your OP you say that the change wont affect active cloakers only AFK ones, but AFK ones dont light cyno's. My suggestion is introducing a module that scans for cloaking ships, so if they go AFK they will be exposed because they are not moving (between safes). I don't want to get off topic and discuss covert cynos. Edit: Spelling.. But what you suggest doesnt stop people going afk in a safe in unprobable cyno stiletto's, and now we are back to where we started. You brought up covert cyno's as an issue, with the cyno jammers not stopping them (and they shouldnt) your suggestion also does nothing to people with covert cynos
Elena Stormbringer Pelican. Violent Entity	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Korg Tronix Originally by: Elena Stormbringer Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 12:18:34 Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 12:17:32 Originally by: Korg Tronix Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 12:14:13 Originally by: Elena Stormbringer too much pyramids How will the change you are suggested stop this from occurring? In your OP you say that the change wont affect active cloakers only AFK ones, but AFK ones dont light cyno's. My suggestion is introducing a module that scans for cloaking ships, so if they go AFK they will be exposed because they are not moving (between safes). I don't want to get off topic and discuss covert cynos. Edit: Spelling.. But what you suggest doesnt stop people going afk in a safe in unprobable cyno stiletto's, and now we are back to where we started. This is why I posted this topic, to look for suggestions/solutions to the flaws in my idea. I know its not perfect, I'm looking for feedback. Thanks for that, I didn't realise that problem. Do you have a suggestion?
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:28:00 - [14] Originally by: Elena Stormbringer no more pyramid But what you suggest doesnt stop people going afk in a safe in unprobable cyno stiletto's, and now we are back to where we started. This is why I posted this topic, to look for suggestions/solutions to the flaws in my idea. I know its not perfect, I'm looking for feedback. Thanks for that, I didn't realise that problem. Do you have a suggestion? Not really, I dont see them as a problem. When a neutral or red goes afk in system I go back to ratting. I keep an eye on my directional and local. I dont sit at the warp in spots in the belt/cosmic anomaly im running and because I take these precautions I dont tend to lose ratting ships.
Elena Stormbringer Pelican. Violent Entity	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Korg Tronix Originally by: Elena Stormbringer no more pyramid But what you suggest doesnt stop people going afk in a safe in unprobable cyno stiletto's, and now we are back to where we started. This is why I posted this topic, to look for suggestions/solutions to the flaws in my idea. I know its not perfect, I'm looking for feedback. Thanks for that, I didn't realise that problem. Do you have a suggestion? Not really, I dont see them as a problem. When a neutral or red goes afk in system I go back to ratting. I keep an eye on my directional and local. I dont sit at the warp in spots in the belt/cosmic anomaly im running and because I take these precautions I dont tend to lose ratting ships. Really you watch local when he's already in system? You watch direction scanner to keep an eye if his cloaky ship shows up? You also don't sit on the warp-in point because then you'll see him warp in his cloaked ship? Do you live in 0.0?
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:33:00 - [16] Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 12:34:52 Originally by: Elena Stormbringer stuff I live in Catch/Curse. You watch local because if he isnt a cloaky and just a scout local will spike if someones coming. You watch directional scan for any ships on it, as most of the time these 'AFK cloakers' arent covert ops just whatever with a cloak fitted and if they are warping in they can be seen. And you stay off the warp in as obviously they will get warped there first, if he warps in on your head then so be it, just one of those things. edit. if he warps in on you he isnt an afk cloaky and again your suggestion doesnt work.
Elena Stormbringer Pelican. Violent Entity	Posted - 2011.03.22 12:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Korg Tronix Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 12:34:52 Originally by: Elena Stormbringer stuff I live in Catch/Curse. You watch local because if he isnt a cloaky and just a scout local will spike if someones coming. You watch directional scan for any ships on it, as most of the time these 'AFK cloakers' arent covert ops just whatever with a cloak fitted and if they are warping in they can be seen. And you stay off the warp in as obviously they will get warped there first, if he warps in on your head then so be it, just one of those things. edit. if he warps in on you he isnt an afk cloaky and again your suggestion doesnt work. ]] Again, I'm talking about the situation before he/she warps in. Once he's active well then we can't catch him anymore with the module. :)
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.03.22 13:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Elena Stormbringer Edited by: Elena Stormbringer on 22/03/2011 13:00:16 Originally by: Korg Tronix Edited by: Korg Tronix on 22/03/2011 12:34:52 Originally by: Elena Stormbringer stuff I live in Catch/Curse. You watch local because if he isnt a cloaky and just a scout local will spike if someones coming. You watch directional scan for any ships on it, as most of the time these 'AFK cloakers' arent covert ops just whatever with a cloak fitted and if they are warping in they can be seen. And you stay off the warp in as obviously they will get warped there first, if he warps in on your head then so be it, just one of those things. edit. if he warps in on you he isnt an afk cloaky and again your suggestion doesnt work. ]] Again, I'm talking about the situation before he/she warps in. Once he's active well then we can't catch him anymore with the module. <- Because he is moving (warping). Ah sorry I thought it was AFK cloakers that was your problem. So you want to be able to find cloakers before they decloak next to you and shout surprise
Baaldor Igneus Auctorita Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.03.22 13:27:00 - [19] And as many thread like this and before it....down in flames it goes. Do not start your threads with "For me...." "I feel", "This is wanted by the Majority or Many feel this way, when the only conversation you have is with three people that has less of an idea what is going on than you do. Threads like this and others fail because it is based on a self centered emotional view, they assume every one thinks like they do or should. And once the crashing reality hits, the OP's proposal will then deteriorate into a defensive "you are nothing but troll's and illiterate sociopaths." In reality, it is really a terrible idea.
Janos Saal	Posted - 2011.03.22 13:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Elena Stormbringer Originally by: Janos Saal Not supported. Thank you for your reason. np
nathanica	Posted - 2011.03.22 14:12:00 - [21] The problem is that local is usable as intel tool, not the fact that someone can cloak. That AFK cloaky is alot less scary if you dont know he is there (or alot more scary).
Di Mulle	Posted - 2011.03.23 00:23:00 - [22] I am hanging in the same belt or anomaly with you. I am cloaked. I am trying to get closer to start an assault, or to hot drop, whatever. Now, why I should get decloaked ? It destroys any purpose of a cloak, doesn't it ? Not even going into any flamewars about AFK cloaking, let's just say it is a good goal. But you just destroyed any "legitimate" cloaking.
Cassus Temon	Posted - 2011.03.23 02:29:00 - [23] your idea is designed to catch probing vessels which reatian a cloak; as you know, it takes time to do what they do. Warping about will only make it harder for them to do their job; and all you need, is a POS module, (perfectly safe), to do your job for you.
FantaKraut	Posted - 2011.03.23 08:26:00 - [24] I think Cloaking in general is a perfectly valid tactic. However, I also think that there needs to be a better counter to it than waiting to get attacked. People tend to use the U-Boat analogy a lot. But seem to forget that we had sonar, and depth charges and were able to hunt the other subs who attacked cargo transports at sea :P I would like to see one of a couple of things introduced. Firstly some way to scan down cloaked ships.. Make it really hard. Make it require special skills that take forever to train and still be difficult enough that the majority of pilots in eve are not going to be good at scanning down cloakers. This would give the crew who love scanning/exploring a little bit more that they can do. It would also require that those who are cloaked either log out, or keep an eye out for probes. Thus fixing the whole issue of people abusing the game mechanics by not being at the keyboard. Another alternative, since the issue is not that someone is cloaked but rather that they are essentially playing the game while not being at the keyboard. Introduce a simple timeout on the eve client. No mouse and/or keyboard movement within say an hour. Ewarp and log the character out of the game. Think of the resources saved on CCP's end in both cpu power and bandwidth. In fact it boggles my mind that CCP is so far behind the times that they do not currently have such a system in place :/ I cannot think of a valid reason that anyone could have for needing to stay logged into the client without any input. There just is not any. Of course people will create macro's that press the spacebar every 5 minutes. But It would be pretty easy for a GM to see that a character has been logged in 23/7 and take the same actions they often take against other players using 3rd party macros.
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.03.23 21:14:00 - [25] Originally by: FantaKraut I cannot think of a valid reason that anyone could have for needing to stay logged into the client without any input. There just is not any. Of course people will create macro's that press the spacebar every 5 minutes. But It would be pretty easy for a GM to see that a character has been logged in 23/7 and take the same actions they often take against other players using 3rd party macros. 1) just because you can't think of one, doesn't mean there isn't a reason 2) GM's don't care if your logged in 23/7, they have other things to occupy their time with, and the macros are already logged in 23/7 doing things, you don't see them getting banned now so what makes you think anything would change. Pro tip: EVE has been out for about 7 years now. Cloaking isn't going to change because its working as intended.
Cassus Temon	Posted - 2011.03.23 23:07:00 - [26] Originally by: FantaKraut I think Cloaking in general is a perfectly valid tactic. However, I also think that there needs to be a better counter to it than waiting to get attacked. People tend to use the U-Boat analogy a lot. But seem to forget that we had sonar, and depth charges and were able to hunt the other subs who attacked cargo transports at sea :P I would like to see one of a couple of things introduced. Firstly some way to scan down cloaked ships.. Make it really hard. Make it require special skills that take forever to train and still be difficult enough that the majority of pilots in eve are not going to be good at scanning down cloakers. This would give the crew who love scanning/exploring a little bit more that they can do. It would also require that those who are cloaked either log out, or keep an eye out for probes. Thus fixing the whole issue of people abusing the game mechanics by not being at the keyboard. Another alternative, since the issue is not that someone is cloaked but rather that they are essentially playing the game while not being at the keyboard. Introduce a simple timeout on the eve client. No mouse and/or keyboard movement within say an hour. Ewarp and log the character out of the game. Think of the resources saved on CCP's end in both cpu power and bandwidth. In fact it boggles my mind that CCP is so far behind the times that they do not currently have such a system in place :/ I cannot think of a valid reason that anyone could have for needing to stay logged into the client without any input. There just is not any. Of course people will create macro's that press the spacebar every 5 minutes. But It would be pretty easy for a GM to see that a character has been logged in 23/7 and take the same actions they often take against other players using 3rd party macros. How exactly does a cloaked vessel, logged in 23/7; relate to the use of botting, or other mechanics? If you're cloaked; all you can do is watch, and chat. If someone cloaks 23/7; chances are, they're actively trying to prevent botting. The fact that you would argue contrary to this; only suggests, that you have a problem with it because they are. Don't assume GM's, CCP, and the rest of us are idiots.
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.03.24 02:01:00 - [27] Originally by: Cassus Temon all you can do is watch, and chat. You'd be shocked what you can learn about an alliance by doing this.
Lykouleon Bad Kitty Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.24 02:49:00 - [28] No. Stop complaining about cloaking. Don't click on this. No, really, don't, it'll make your eyes bleed.
Rascael Mindstar Technology	Posted - 2011.03.24 04:00:00 - [29] No local... no cloakers... simple

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