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tpwh21
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Posted - 2011.03.25 11:20:00 -
[1]
I have been playing around with t2 ship invention and manufacturing. Can anyone correct my thinking/help me out?
Even without factoring in pos costs (cost of copy and invention slots).
These are really not profitable - apart from a very small number of shiptypes -stealth bombers and some assault frigs.
I have double checked the spreadsheet i am using - and it is correct.
So the spreadsheet isn't lying. It really seems to generate quite substantial losses to build most t2 ships. and the markets are mostly big enough for the BPO to not have much of an effect....
Is there an effect in game i don't understand - for example alliances building t2 ships at a loss - to get rid of their moon goo - or something similar?
Or are the markets quite slow moving in response to change in components pricing?
or is it just so complicated that people build them at a loss and don't realise it?
Although i bought the datacores are free argument for a while - i can't believe that this is really true - datacores are only a small faction of the cost.....
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Kiyirari
All Star Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.03.25 11:54:00 -
[2]
Their is very little profit in T2 ship production as you have noticed, really not worth the effort inless decrptors come into the equation of profit etc.
Part of the reason is being the old days of EVE and the T2 lottery being that origanil T2 ship BPOs exsist with ME 0, could bve more these days if their researched.
Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels |
RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.03.25 11:57:00 -
[3]
Lots of people will sell at a loss just because
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Join BIG
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sg1jack
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Posted - 2011.03.25 17:45:00 -
[4]
I am not sure the T2 BPO lottery is to blame as much as people think. With research you can and will find T2 ships,mods and ammo worth making but at the same time you will see many of these selling under the material cost.
My own personal opinion on the reasons for this are as follows:
I mine so its free (this seems to pervade the T1 Market)
I moon mine and mine in 0.0 so that is also free.
Both really are one and the same thing but I think the first is the most prevelant.
I like to make stuff so I dont care how much it sells for.
I don't understand manufacturing properly so sell at the wrong price.
And some people just sell low to get rid of stuff quickly.
Its likely a mix of all of the above and more complicated than that but gives you a general idea why things like this happen.
Your only option like the rest of us, is to do your research find what works for you and that you can profit from and ignore the rest
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Quazal Atreides
Gallente
Amarr Institute of Science
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Posted - 2011.03.25 18:34:00 -
[5]
in simple terms
most people are just stupid :).... but basically the BPO dont have any impact on pricing for about 90% of their market (there are some areas that t2 ship bpo's control the market because of low volume)
But many people are just undercutting to a point that they dont consider they are selling at a loss... usually either becuse they mine the moon goo, dont count in invention costs, or just simply cant add together 5 numbers
They just see ooo this kronos is worth 800mill so must be making a profit and forgetting the build+invnetion cost is 850mill.... (numbers just used for example)
So yep whilst -4 ME ship bpcs dont make a profit in most cases, there is still profit to be made using decrypters and certain ships (the SB being best example of profit) you could consider making JF last time i checked you can earn about 3isk per hour making them  j/k
But in all nope very little profit in ships until poeple realise that mats have gone up and they are still selling at material low cost price.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.25 19:34:00 -
[6]
It's actually something much simpler and less pleasant.
While all of the above things indeed DO matter as partial factors, ultimately, right now, there are TWO main reason most T2 ships are not profitable.
First main reason (applicable to ALL T2 ships) is simply the fact that moon minerals are rapidly changing in price, and that price propagates very slowly through the production chain, to intermediate/advanced materials (delays between 1 week to 1 month) and then to T2 components (another delay) and finally to the T2 items (yet another delay).
People who sell T2 items might have purchased some of the needed materials and/or components quite a while ago, and instead of considering the current prices for everything they purchased, they only take into account the price they purchased stuff at... so while they actually DO make a profit, that profit is a large trade profit merged with an invention/manufacture loss, but it's "masked".
Proper accounting and constant recalculation of profitability are the only two things that would help here.
Sadly very few bother with such a thing.
Second reason (applicable only to SOME T2 ships) is the fact that too few are destroyed, so the existing ones can be "recycled" into the economy, driving prices near to or even below profitability levels.
For instance, very few marauders or jump freighters get destroyed, so it happens quite frequently to have people reselling the one they owned to recover the initial investment.
Needless to say, people that want to recoup an investment don't really care that much about the breakeven price of invention/manufacture, and they'll happily undercut to get the sale first.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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802O8020802O80208020
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Posted - 2011.03.25 23:43:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: tpwh21
These are really not profitable - apart from a very small number of shiptypes -stealth bombers and some assault frigs.
You are absolutely correct! I was playing around with invention for a while (actually some of the T2 ships which do get lost in combat) and theres is no way invention in profitable save for a few odd ships etc here and there as you mention.
I do, however, think the that the BPOs play a substantial role in this. Why go through all the trouble of invention just to make less money on your moon goo? The big manufacturers of tech 2 items are very well capable of adding 5 numbers together and getting a positive income. Could be wrong of course, but the point is valid.
If you could reseach the T2 BPCs to increase the ME invention would become profitable. Now its not. Btw, is there any logical explanation to why its not possible to do that?
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Greg Huff
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Posted - 2011.03.26 00:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: 802O8020802O80208020
If you could reseach the T2 BPCs to increase the ME invention would become profitable.
Except that everyone creating T2 BPC's would improve them, thereby being able to reduce their selling price and taking away your profit once again. Originally by: 802O8020802O80208020
Btw, is there any logical explanation to why its not possible to do that?
Because CCP has decided that no BPC's can be researched. Therefore the T2 BPC's are following the same logic as T1's.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.26 00:41:00 -
[9]
Originally by: 802O8020802O80208020
I do, however, think the that the BPOs play a substantial role in this.
Let's assume for a second this would be true (even if it isn't), that T2 BPOs would actually be the main factor.
If that would be the case, how do you explain the fact that the many ship types where no T2 BPOs exist are STILL not more profitable to invent than most of the rest of the T2 ships ?
You know, since invention is the only way to get them in the first place.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Quazal Atreides
Gallente
Amarr Institute of Science
Eternus Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2011.03.26 06:42:00 -
[10]
one point of interest i thought about since my earlier post
I wonder what part somer has played in this... as (some) people may know i played blink for a fair few isk, and saw first hand that some winners of the ships would hapily sell well below what the value of the ship was
Given amount of winners on blink it wouldn't surprise me, for eg.. player A (manufacturer) build 3x ships and puts on market @ build + 10% ... Player B plays blink for this ship and wins....
somer buys from Player A 1 ship, contracts to Player B who puts on market below Player A price lets assume build cost (unknown to him but he dont care its all profit )
Then finally Player C plays blink for this ship and wins , again somer buys from market but this from Player B (or someone else who has undercut him) then player C relists for below player B price and so on
then ofc player A logs on next day sees 1 or 2 ships under his price and can't wait for isk so cuts losses and just reduces his.. and so the spiral continues
obviously this is hypethical and would require higher than just 1 ship to push market, but i certainly saw ships being sold for under build cost that had been won...
Obviously only somer could tell us how many winners take their prizes in ships..
Just a thought.!
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Erik Renalard
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Posted - 2011.03.26 08:22:00 -
[11]
Akita knows her industry and market. I respect Akita's knowledge and desire help the community but honestly I adore the misinformation and utter BS people spread here,its been most helpfull in keeping the market competition low. I also pray for war. Any war,any time that results in massive losses of sub capital ships,well even capitals for that matter and I pray for turf wars. Fluctuations in the market throw off the unwary and uneducated meaning they see losses later on and quit inventing/bulding which is one of the perks of player controlled resources.
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clixoras
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Posted - 2011.03.26 10:23:00 -
[12]
I quit T2 (ship) production 6 months ago but at that time it was profitable. Even with an inefficient production chain.
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Jimmy Doe
POS Consultants Group LLC
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Posted - 2011.03.26 11:38:00 -
[13]
You say "Invention isn't profitable" or "it's the BPO holder's faults" but the reality of it is, even on the T1 market, there are many many many items, including some ships, that are a massive loss to build and that's just mineral costs.
The number one deciding factor on the market is not the supply or even the demand. It's how far the seller is willing to go down in price to get rid of what he's got. Even if it means taking a loss just to get the item/ammo/ship offloaded and get isk back into the wallet to use for another round of production/plex etc.
"The tree of liberty is nurtured with the blood of patriots." |
Andrev Nox
SOMER Blink
Cognitive Development
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Posted - 2011.03.27 23:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Quazal Atreides
Obviously only somer could tell us how many winners take their prizes in ships..
The Blue Part :)
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LT1
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Posted - 2011.03.28 16:57:00 -
[15]
I am making nice profits in T2 ship production, but the margins are nowhere near what they are for T2 modules. The overall throughput is quite a bit different, however - T2 module production is a daily grind for 40+% profit, T2 ship production is a couple-of-times a week grind for 10+% profit. And T2 modules are 500M in, 700M out...whereas T2 ship production is like 4B in, 4.4B out. I don't think it makes any sense on a smaller scale, and as noted your spreadsheets better be dead on and you need to keep a very,VERY close eye on the market. Narrow margins mean big pain if you screw up.
Finally, have an asset base where a bad invention run won't kill you.
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tpwh21
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:02:00 -
[16]
thanks for all the help. i still really dont understand. looking at jita market for guardians and HIC - both seem to be selling for substantial per item losses.
Perhaps i need to look at building the t2 components to improve profit margin - but that is way too much work. Think i might just take a pass on this whole area. seems to be way too little profit for way too much work.
much easier harvesting ribbons from sleepers for far less hassle...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.03.28 20:29:00 -
[17]
HIC are extremely technetium-heavy and move rather slowly, plus people ASSUME it's profitable because there's no BPO for them.
Exhumers are also technetium-heavy, but at least the Hulk moves quite fast, so you don't really see the problems there.
Guardians... dunno.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.03.29 03:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jimmy Doe
You say "Invention isn't profitable" or "it's the BPO holder's faults" but the reality of it is, even on the T1 market, there are many many many items, including some ships, that are a massive loss to build and that's just mineral costs.
The number one deciding factor on the market is not the supply or even the demand. It's how far the seller is willing to go down in price to get rid of what he's got. Even if it means taking a loss just to get the item/ammo/ship offloaded and get isk back into the wallet to use for another round of production/plex etc.
Please do share, as most T1 stuff can be reprocessed 
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Ikserak tai
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Posted - 2011.03.29 16:30:00 -
[19]
You forgot to mention all the invention/industry/mining/manufacturing alts that are virtual slaves for their mains and work for free, in the same manner "minerals are free" etc.
Decryptors are also "free" when obtained by exploration alts.
While it is a challenge to manufacture T3 ships and mods for your own use just for grins, doing it to make Isk as a profession is almost impossible. Unless you're part of a larger organization that has a lot of assets at your disposal, and can take advantage of their economies of scale, T3, like most manufacturing, is break-even.
No pots of gold at the end of this rainbow, try the next one down the road.
YOU'VE NEVER ROCKED 'TIL YOU'VE UNDOCKED. |
Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
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Posted - 2011.03.30 10:59:00 -
[20]
Well, there is profit for almost every t2 ship with several exceptions (like eagle), that might be caused by said BPOs. This profit can be achieved even by buying resources in jita and selling ships there (all via sell orders). However, the profit margin is quite small. You have to use correct decryptors and have L5 invention skills. I would say this profit doesn't worth time of your manufacturing lines. But if you sell your ships not in jita, but in other systems where is a demand for them and lack in supply, you might get much better profits ;)
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People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought they seldom use (S.Kierkegaard) |
Doddy
Excidium.
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Posted - 2011.03.30 14:02:00 -
[21]
Its all down to resale. I have finished with my nighthawk and want to sell it. I could care less whether i make the isk i spent on it back (i might even make a profit regardless as ship prices change) as it has served me well. So i take it to Jita and stick it on market at lowest sell. 20 other people are in exactly the same position to me doing the same today, they undercut me. 10 others stole their nighthawks and also don't care about build price and undercut me. 20 manufacturers are desperate for isk and so undercut me even though they are selling at a loss. 20 other manufacturers are just stupid and also undercut me. Finally some badly put together market bots also undercut me bringing the whole Jita market to sub build cost.
All becaus of teh Jita effect.
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