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Are the Caldari Race Fascist's

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Valkaarie Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.25 23:13:00 - [1] Ive always thought this by wacthing the opening clip when you select a race on their desription and just looking at their style be it in the game and with concept art/cronicles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism Just by reading this defintion on wikipedia pretty much makes me think of the Caldari Race. What do you think?
Daedalus Arcova Gallente Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD.	Posted - 2011.03.25 23:16:00 - [2] Yes. Next question?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.03.25 23:37:00 - [3] Not really. They're hypercapitalistic, which usually clashes with fascism. A much closer parallel would be a very twisted form of Japan-originated multinational corporations. In fact, that was pretty much the inspiration for them. For instance... _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts _
Wendi Watson	Posted - 2011.03.26 00:18:00 - [4] Edited by: Wendi Watson on 26/03/2011 00:18:07 Quote: Are the Caldari Race Fascist's Fascist's what?
Ische Qou	Posted - 2011.03.26 00:27:00 - [5] Edited by: Ische Qou on 26/03/2011 00:27:16 I agree that Caldaris are fascists and corporatists. Their megacorporations do pay their workers with corporate fiat money that is not accepted elsewhere, even within Caldari space. I don't think that fits with capitalism.
Alotta Baggage Amarr Imperial Manufactorum Armada Assail	Posted - 2011.03.26 00:42:00 - [6] Originally by: Wendi Watson Edited by: Wendi Watson on 26/03/2011 00:18:07 Quote: Are the Caldari Race Fascist's Fascist's what? Hope he's ok... seems to have been mauled by something mid sentence Originally by: Valkoinen Heteromies I for one would love to be able to walk on stations and fly spaceships in the body of a little cute catgirl!
Fon Revedhort Monks of War DarkSide.	Posted - 2011.03.26 02:20:00 - [7] Fascism is denial of nation - a belief that the state itself forms one. So, looking at how many Achuras are there in Caldari state, I'd answer yes ---[center] Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Alotta Baggage Amarr Imperial Manufactorum Armada Assail	Posted - 2011.03.26 02:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Fon Revedhort Fascism is denial of nation - a belief that the state itself forms one. So, looking at how many Achuras are there in Caldari state, I'd answer yes You have quite an underbite going, a good Caldari dentist could probably fix that Of course they have no cures fore baldness... they told me to buy a wig Originally by: Valkoinen Heteromies I for one would love to be able to walk on stations and fly spaceships in the body of a little cute catgirl!
Awesome Possum Original Sin. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS	Posted - 2011.03.26 04:02:00 - [9] caldari is japan ♥
ivar R'dhak Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.26 05:30:00 - [10] Until you see this woman. No. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Kallista Naari	Posted - 2011.03.26 05:51:00 - [11] Edited by: Kallista Naari on 26/03/2011 05:51:53 Edited by: Kallista Naari on 26/03/2011 05:51:41 Originally by: ivar R'dhak Until you see this woman. No. Boooooo Caldari always reminded me of a mix of Japan and Germany.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research.	Posted - 2011.03.26 06:32:00 - [12] Originally by: Akita T Not really. They're hypercapitalistic, which usually clashes with fascism. A much closer parallel would be a very twisted form of Japan-originated multinational corporations. In fact, that was pretty much the inspiration for them. For instance... I've always found it kind of boring that most of the supposedly powerful corporations never really seem to do anything besides sell skills and blueprints.
Jaik7	Posted - 2011.03.26 07:24:00 - [13] Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Originally by: Akita T Not really. They're hypercapitalistic, which usually clashes with fascism. A much closer parallel would be a very twisted form of Japan-originated multinational corporations. In fact, that was pretty much the inspiration for them. For instance... I've always found it kind of boring that most of the supposedly powerful corporations never really seem to do anything besides sell skills and blueprints. orly? and what does the republic justice corp do? seen any trials recently? how about native freshfoods? ever see any ships under their brands shipping stuff about? npcs play the biggest role they can without making the game feel like a script.
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2011.03.26 07:42:00 - [14] Corporatism "Corporatism has been utilized by many ideologies across the political spectrum, including: absolutism, capitalism, conservatism, fascism, liberalism, progressivism, reactionism, social democracy, socialism, and syndicalism." things are rarely simple. same thing from different angle gets a whole new meaning. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon."
Bevil Smyth Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.26 08:20:00 - [15] Caldari is a fascist state at present, run by an ex terrorist/guerilla or however you want to look at it. He was placed in power by the same unpleasant entity that provoked the gallente/caldari war by hi-jacking the supercarrier in the now infamous station crashing incident. ============================ 2003 and still alive!
Halcyon Ingenium Caldari Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact	Posted - 2011.03.26 09:47:00 - [16] It was more like the capitalist version of a feudal nation. Then Heth came along and upgraded it to fascism. The mega corporations hold their employees like serfs, and Heth rules the Caldari State through a holding corp, so maybe he's more like an emperor. The tone of the imagery and themes in the art representing the Caldari is definitely fascistic, so there you go I guess. By the way, real men biomass when they emoragequit.
Flynn Fetladral Caldari BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2011.03.26 10:13:00 - [17] Caldari is more 'feudal' in my eyes. With the mega corps acting like clans with their own agendas fighting between themselves for power. Caldari are certainly not a single-party state with one national ideology. Heth is man with power over everything and nothing. The Sansha, are prob the closest thing to 'fascist' entity in EVE Online. Follow Flynn on Twitter
Peter Powers FinFleet Raiden.	Posted - 2011.03.26 11:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Flynn Fetladral Caldari is more 'feudal' in my eyes. With the mega corps acting like clans with their own agendas fighting between themselves for power. Caldari are certainly not a single-party state with one national ideology. Heth is man with power over everything and nothing. The Sansha, are prob the closest thing to 'fascist' entity in EVE Online. wow, you missed the complete empyrean age storyline. Vote Peter Powers for CSM6!
Flynn Fetladral Caldari BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2011.03.26 11:25:00 - [19] Edited by: Flynn Fetladral on 26/03/2011 11:26:47 Edited by: Flynn Fetladral on 26/03/2011 11:24:58 Originally by: Peter Powers Originally by: Flynn Fetladral Caldari is more 'feudal' in my eyes. With the mega corps acting like clans with their own agendas fighting between themselves for power. Caldari are certainly not a single-party state with one national ideology. Heth is man with power over everything and nothing. The Sansha, are prob the closest thing to 'fascist' entity in EVE Online. wow, you missed the complete empyrean age storyline. You would be correct. I've never read it. I've read over some of the canon but it's very inconsistent, lots of gaps, and some of it even seems out of date. This is just my view from what I see in game and had have read about Caldari, while applying real world comparisons. If you can point me towards the material, i'd enjoy reading it. P.S. Unless of course your talking about my comment about the 'Sansha' and not the Caldari? Follow Flynn on Twitter
Astenion Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2011.03.26 11:47:00 - [20] Edited by: Astenion on 26/03/2011 11:49:34 Originally by: Flynn Fetladral Edited by: Flynn Fetladral on 26/03/2011 11:26:47 Edited by: Flynn Fetladral on 26/03/2011 11:24:58 Originally by: Peter Powers Originally by: Flynn Fetladral Caldari is more 'feudal' in my eyes. With the mega corps acting like clans with their own agendas fighting between themselves for power. Caldari are certainly not a single-party state with one national ideology. Heth is man with power over everything and nothing. The Sansha, are prob the closest thing to 'fascist' entity in EVE Online. wow, you missed the complete empyrean age storyline. You would be correct. I've never read it. I've read over some of the canon but it's very inconsistent, lots of gaps, and some of it even seems out of date. This is just my view from what I see in game and had have read about Caldari, while applying real world comparisons. If you can point me towards the material, i'd enjoy reading it. P.S. Unless of course your talking about my comment about the 'Sansha' and not the Caldari? You should read it because it's official lore, and because you completely missed it. The Caldari State is the epitome of a fascist nation; it is self-sufficient, insular, and run by a dictator who rose to power through a coup. Everything is done for the state, by the state. The only difference is there isn't really a government, per se. The corporations are the government, however they all answer to Tibus Heth. It would be hypercapitalist if they weren't forced to answer to Heth and could be free to do as they wish; however, that's not the case, as everything they do is for The State. Their workers are ultranationalist slaves who are forced to work for the corporations for very little money in their caste system, or else they are forced into exile and ostracized by the entire nation. There is no individual except for Heth. He is their cult of personality. If there is any feudal system of government among the empires, it would be Minmatar.
Flynn Fetladral Caldari BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2011.03.26 11:59:00 - [21] Originally by: Astenion Edited by: Astenion on 26/03/2011 11:49:34 Originally by: Flynn Fetladral Edited by: Flynn Fetladral on 26/03/2011 11:26:47 Edited by: Flynn Fetladral on 26/03/2011 11:24:58 Originally by: Peter Powers Originally by: Flynn Fetladral Caldari is more 'feudal' in my eyes. With the mega corps acting like clans with their own agendas fighting between themselves for power. Caldari are certainly not a single-party state with one national ideology. Heth is man with power over everything and nothing. The Sansha, are prob the closest thing to 'fascist' entity in EVE Online. wow, you missed the complete empyrean age storyline. You would be correct. I've never read it. I've read over some of the canon but it's very inconsistent, lots of gaps, and some of it even seems out of date. This is just my view from what I see in game and had have read about Caldari, while applying real world comparisons. If you can point me towards the material, i'd enjoy reading it. P.S. Unless of course your talking about my comment about the 'Sansha' and not the Caldari? You should read it because it's official lore, and because you completely missed it. The Caldari State is the epitome of a fascist nation; it is self-sufficient, insular, and run by a dictator who rose to power through a coup. Everything is done for the state, by the state. The only difference is there isn't really a government, per se. The corporations are the government, however they all answer to Tibus Heth. It would be hypercapitalist if they weren't forced to answer to Heth and could be free to do as they wish; however, that's not the case, as everything they do is for The State. Their workers are ultranationalist slaves who are forced to work for the corporations for very little money in their caste system, or else they are forced into exile and ostracized by the entire nation. There is no individual except for Heth. He is their cult of personality. If there is any feudal system of government among the empires, it would be Minmatar. I'll see about picking up the book :-) Follow Flynn on Twitter
Astenion Spiritus Draconis	Posted - 2011.03.26 12:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Flynn Fetladral I'll see about picking up the book :-) You won't regret it! It's great! I liked Empyrean Age much better than The Burning Life. Empyrean Age is where it's at.
Stitcher Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.26 12:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Astenion The Caldari State is the epitome of a fascist nation; it is self-sufficient, insular, and run by a dictator who rose to power through a coup. Everything is done for the state, by the state. The only difference is there isn't really a government, per se. The corporations are the government, however they all answer to Tibus Heth. It would be hypercapitalist if they weren't forced to answer to Heth and could be free to do as they wish; however, that's not the case, as everything they do is for The State. Their workers are ultranationalist slaves who are forced to work for the corporations for very little money in their caste system, or else they are forced into exile and ostracized by the entire nation. There is no individual except for Heth. He is their cult of personality. Okay, no. Heth is not the only power in the state, nor the most powerful. He's certainly the most powerful INDIVIDUAL in the State by dint of being the CEO of the largest megacorporation, having political leanings and prejudices that resonate strongly with the Caldari population as a whole, and the head of a political organisation that plays on those prejudices. He is NOT, however, the most powerful force in the State, because at the end of the day his greatest power is as one member of the eight-member Chief Executive Panel. If the other seven members, or even just five of them voted against him, he'd be compelled to abide by the panel's decision. The other CEOs on the panel - Ishukone's Mens Reppola, for instance - might well have policies that conflict with his own. This filters down the corporate structure. The CEOs are answerable to their shareholders, and the thing about shares is that they're open to purchase by anybody. The Caldari system for exerting political influence (the equivalent of "voting" in a democracy) would be to buy and hold megacorporate shares. Obviously these are expensive, so in practice a lot of the shareholders might turn out to be worker's unions and political organizations which buy them with donations and membership fees, plus a variety of wealthy success stories. The most important thing to remember is that, when it functions correctly, Caldari society is meritocratic. In fact, Tibus Heth's own ideal is for it to be meritocratic. However, when it is not functioning correctly, yes the State is oppressive, fascist and brutal. But where it is like that, it (very occasionally) produces popular uprisings like the one which swept Heth to power. Furthermore, the average quality of life for citizens of the State is supposed to be as good if not better than the average quality of life for citizens of the Federation, with a similar range - the elite want for nothing, the rock-bottom live hand-to-mouth. Okay, so salaries are paid in corporate scrip which gets terrible exchange rates with other corporations, but you have to start thinking of the State less as one nation and more as a closely intermingled alliance of eight. We don't say it's unfair that the British are paid in pounds while France uses the Euro. Their money is still money, even if it's Ishukone money, or Lai Dai money. Aboard major stations, in big cities and all the central hubs of commerce and population, the pay is fair, above-board and enough to enjoy a quality of life appropriate to your career. It only gets bad in backwater mining colonies, isolated factory facilities and other such facilities that are away from the public eye. Even then, the brutal conditions can be the product of the overseeing officer being corrupt, rather than corruption on the corporation's part. If an administrator can keep their mistreatment of the workers hidden from the higher-ups, then they might just do it and get rich. The State however most certainly does have labour laws. TL;DR - the Caldari State is not one thing. Parts of it might qualify as "fascist". Most of it doesn't. - - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Stitcher Caldari	Posted - 2011.03.26 12:52:00 - [24] Edited by: Stitcher on 26/03/2011 12:52:58 Now, I am not trying to imply that the State is a shiny nice promised land. Of course it isn't, NOWHERE in New Eden is, just like in real life. Part of that is that Caldari society has some ethical ideals which are at least strange or even outright shocking to us. There's a word in the Caldari language - "Heiian" - which approximately translates as "dutiful surrender of self-interest to the collective good". This isn't an entirely alien concept to a western society. One of our most popular TV shows coined the phrase "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" after all. But the Caldari apply that same thinking ALL THE TIME, whereas a real-life Westerner would probably only apply that mindset to extreme circumstances, if they did so at all. Selflessness is a virtue in Caldari society, but they apply it so vigorously that it becomes a vice, giving corporate higher-ups carte blanche to direct the working population however they desire in the knowledge that you have to push a Caldari citizen really, REALLY hard before he'll start to seriously consider insurrection. This is not a campaign of active brainwashing, but rather a cultural indoctrination which instills certain values into a person throughout their formative years because that's just the ethical matrix of the society they live in. Example: I'm British. My parents vote Liberal Democrat. They're both doctors. As a result of growing up in that situation, my own leanings are liberal and middle-class. Technically, that's indoctrination of a sort, but it's the sort that everybody goes through as a result of growing up in their particular environment, rather than a conscious attempt to make me think and behave a certain way. Growing up Caldari means growing up in a society which values an ordered, uncomplaining meritocracy, in which people rise through the ranks through application of their skills and talent. It also means being more comfortable as part of a team or other ingroup than on your own. That does not mean that Caldari can't be individuals. I'd like to draw your attention to this picture. You notice the girl in the foreground with the dyed hair and the star tattoo? That's a very distinctive expression of self, but at the same time she's a face in the crowd at a political rally. Caldari society does NOT force people to be indistinguishable drones. On the contrary, it values individuality to the extent that variety enriches the collective and gives it the flexibility necessary to overcome any obstacle. The group may come first, but the group is enriched by variation and individuality among its members. That's the essence of meritocracy - that you rise above your peers by merit of constructive difference. Hell, the essence of capitalism is that competition is constructive. If everything was homogeneous and grey in Caldari life, there'd be no variety, no competition, no constructive clash of competing "products". Result? a society that is superficially ruled by conformism and collectivism on the surface, but with depths of personality where each person is quite welcome to have their opinion. They're also quite free to express it, if they're prepared to accept the consequences. - - Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2011.03.26 13:28:00 - [25] Wonderful explanation, Stitcher. -- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Lorebook - Mysteries of W-space
Millie Clode Amarr Insert Cool Name Here	Posted - 2011.03.26 13:42:00 - [26] Edited by: Millie Clode on 26/03/2011 13:41:45 Originally by: ivar R'dhak Until you see this woman. No. Quotation fail. " "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross" - Sinclair Lewis, 1835" Lulz, fascism didn't exist by that name until the 1920s and Sinclair lewis wasn't born until 1885. Someone should try a bit harder. ---------- Who, me?
Illwill Bill Reign of Anarchy	Posted - 2011.03.26 13:44:00 - [27] Confirming Caldari are space Italians. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.26 13:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Illwill Bill Confirming Caldari are space Italians. àif nothing else to show the close relation to the space French. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Illwill Bill Reign of Anarchy	Posted - 2011.03.26 14:03:00 - [29] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Illwill Bill Confirming Caldari are space Italians. àif nothing else to show the close relation to the space French. And their good relationship to the Catho... Amarrians. Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
ivar R'dhak Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.26 14:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Millie Clode Quotation fail. " "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross" - Sinclair Lewis, 1835" Lulz, fascism didn't exist by that name until the 1920s and Sinclair lewis wasn't born until 1885. Someone should try a bit harder. Indeed. Quote: Biographical note on Sinclair Lewis Sinclair Lewis (1885-1951) continued to be a prolific writer, but none of his later writings equaled the success or stature of his chief works of the twenties. After his divorce from his second wife in 1942, Sinclair Lewis lived chiefly in Europe. His later novels include Ann Vickers (I933), It Can't Happen Here (1935), The Prodigal Parents (1938), Gideon Planish (1943), Cass Timberlane (1945), Kingsblood Royal ( 1947), The God-Seeker (1949), and World So Wide (1951). From Main Street to Stockholm: Letters of Sinclair Lewis 1919-1930 was published in 1952, one year after his death in Rome. Thanks for making me look up this interesting US writer. Who¦s obviously eminently competent on judging a fascist society. Love it when internet typos make you nitpickers shoot yourselves in the foot. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦

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