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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:10:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Myra2007 on 11/04/2011 16:11:22 I don't see much of a problem with afk cloaking per se. At one point however I seem to remember ideas about making asteroid belts dynamic. So you would probably have to scan them like gravimetric sites and that would give you ample time to notice the probes before someone can actually launch an attack. Too bad that talk was years ago and CCP probably dropped those ideas somewhere along the line in favour of something more shiny. --
Originally by: CCP Elais
It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:12:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Misanth This is exactly why anomalies need to be nerfed to the ground, and minerals (and mods) should get a major increase in size. Force alliances in null to mine, and make sure their PvPers spread out in belts over several systems like it used to be. Now they're all safe in their blobbed anomaly-upgraded HQ's. Ridicilous.
You know better than to increase something like minerals. They'll just drop in value. Yeah there's more bloby in systems but that's because anoms made it possible to have more people in space as opposed to clone jumping to empire for lvl 4s. Only time I ever heard of alliances doing mining was for organized OPs to fix alliance level isk problems. Never for personal gain beyond the people who like to munch rock. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Ranger 1
Amarr Paragon Fury Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:14:00 -
[93]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Originally by: Mr Kidd I keep saying this but apparently, noone from nullsec gets it.
I live in a wh. We don't have local so the assumption is always that someone is in the system. It never stops us from running anomalies that can be found even without the use of probes. So, HTFU?
Mr Kidd cynos dont work in wh also. Now go figure it out.
I believe his point was that you don't need a cyno to slip a gank squad into a WH undetected.
===== The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:20:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Originally by: Misanth This is exactly why anomalies need to be nerfed to the ground, and minerals (and mods) should get a major increase in size. Force alliances in null to mine, and make sure their PvPers spread out in belts over several systems like it used to be. Now they're all safe in their blobbed anomaly-upgraded HQ's. Ridicilous.
You know better than to increase something like minerals. They'll just drop in value. Yeah there's more bloby in systems but that's because anoms made it possible to have more people in space as opposed to clone jumping to empire for lvl 4s. Only time I ever heard of alliances doing mining was for organized OPs to fix alliance level isk problems. Never for personal gain beyond the people who like to munch rock.
* I do?
* Mining really needs a boost,
* while the production that is null-specific (supercap) is way too easy to haul out. Either you nerf JF's, JB's and Titanbridges to hell and back, or you increase the volume of modules/minerals. Well, you could also just increase the amount of modules needed to build them, but that'd just mean alot more traffic so the safety/easy production is still there.. I think increasing module/mineral size should co-operate well enough with giving miners an incentitive to mine in null.
* The lv4-spamming in highsec was not that big when people still belt-ratted. And I think the general assumption in the playerbase is that lv4's will be nerfed sooner or later. Not to mention that "clonejumping to highsec" is not viable for the true nullsec resident, only for alts. If you live in null, you defend and attack more or less on a daily basis. Clonejump timers is almost a day. You have no such luxury, unless you're an alt as stated, and then you can just park that alt non-stop in highsec anyway soooooooo (this is getting long).
TL;DR Null mining need a major boost. Supercap production, jumpbridges etc need a major nerf. Anomalies are making nullsec way too safe, way to easy, quick and big isk for so little work - need nerf. Belt ratting needs love.
Having people spread out over multiple system (limited amount of belts for X players) was good. Having people mine in null was good. Having people escort freighters through null was good. It was all incentitives for fighting, both aggressive and defensive. Now it's just way too stagnant, way too bad for miners, and way to destructive on EVE's economy. -
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:27:00 -
[95]
I get what you're saying, but you're also looking at a much lower population cap in null which some would argue is a bad thing. Escorting freighters does make for some interesting situations but it's so tedious and has so many work arounds that you'd have to roll back pretty far to revive that sort of thing. There's a certain balance to strike between tedium and interesting. And yes mining needs a boost period. Increasing the mineral amounts won't do much. Low-ends are oversupplied to the point of ridiculousness. Adding more mins will just drop the value further. So you'd have to do something to increase the value of each mineral as well. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Vicky Vette
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:32:00 -
[96]
1) Go to a less popular system, make less money, driving the best equipment in the game is not a human right.
2) At the same time CCP messed up. They created such high end equipment that everybody and his grandmother feels less than adequate driving anything smaller than a Titan. Hence ppl sit there and try to bear 24x7 to measure up to the new "standard" and throw only 1 afk cloaky guy into the mix is all it takes for shrill calls of "griefer!111" I honestly feel Eve went overboard with the "risk" part, the stakes are so high it makes the general population into a bunch of cowards.
3) Anybody in a cloaked ship should have 30 second delay before showing up in Local.
4) Anybody in a cloaked ship should have a "battery" they must recharge, ppl should not be able to sit there in sov space with impunity. Having overpowered stealth has killed dozens of games. Either show up and fight or go home you cloaked gaylord.
5) Boost Railguns.
6) Boost Tempest.
7) Gurista ECM mechanics are broken.
-VV
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Selene Valkros
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:33:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Tippia No. Local is the key issue in the conversation. Without local, the problem wouldn't exist.
AFK cloaking is a counter to the 100% accurate intel provided by local by making that intel less reliable. If you feel that this counter is causing problems, the solution is not to implement a counter-counter, but to fix the root cause ù in this case local.
I'll agree the insta-intel provided by local is fake, but I disagree that afk cloaking is a solution. It is merely a byproduct of players trying to make maximum (ab)use of the current game mechanics. I'm curious though, if CCP did 'fix' local, how would you change cloaking to compensate?
Originally by: How is the problem/solution mix off? You're talking 0.0 space, not Disneyland. Try going into a wormhole where you can't even see them on local... you can only feel their breath on the back of your mind's neck. You're sitting there while mining, running anoms, whatever watching d-scan almost constantly for that tell-tale blip of an enemy ship or five, or that sudden appearance of combat probes that tell you they're coming.
You have it easy and want it easier.
Again, you're not reading my entire post. Both afk and anti-afk cloaker groups have issues. One is clearly overpowered, the other sits around wit sense of entitlement.
Speaking of easy, how hard is it to be an afk cloaker?
****
Training needed: Frigate 3-4 Cloaking 1
Equipment needed: Frigate Prototype Cloaking Device
Time needed: Rough minimum - < 30 seconds to warp to a planet from a stargate, then trundling off at subwarp speeds to avoid being dropped on at the planet warp in. Add on a bit more for warping around at random intervals to create deadpace bookmarks
****
Easy enough?
And before you say, "But he can't do anything!" it doesn't matter. His mere presence is enough to cause the same amount disruption that a fully trained afk cloaker, complete with black ops and imp. cloak can create. He just lacks the follow through. But people in system won't know that *because he's cloaked 23/7.*
Also, the problem that I am discussing is not "What do we do once an AFK cloakers launches an attack," but "AFK cloaking for 23/7 for the sole purpose of disupting activities with no means of countering is overpowered." |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:46:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Tippia on 11/04/2011 16:48:22
Originally by: Selene Valkros I'll agree the insta-intel provided by local is fake, but I disagree that afk cloaking is a solution.
Well, that's pretty much what the AFK cloaking complaint boils down to: people say they can't tell whether someone in local is active or not. In other words, it solves the problem of local providing a good estimate of how dangerous the system is.
Quote: I'm curious though, if CCP did 'fix' local, how would you change cloaking to compensate?
That's the beauty of it: it wouldn't have to change.
AFK cloakers wouldn't create any problems, and AK cloakers would do what cloaking is supposed to do: keep hidden and spy and/or pounce on people. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:47:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Selene Valkros I'm curious though, if CCP did 'fix' local, how would you change cloaking to compensate?
That's the beauty of it: it wouldn't have to change.
AFK cloakers wouldn't create any problems, and AK cloakers would do what cloaking is supposed to do: keep hidden and spy and/or pounce on people.
You there! Stop making sense! -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Omni Industrial Coalition Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:52:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Selene Valkros And before you say, "But he can't do anything!" it doesn't matter. His mere presence is enough to cause the same amount disruption that a fully trained afk cloaker, complete with black ops and imp. cloak can create. He just lacks the follow through. But people in system won't know that *because he's cloaked 23/7.*
Also, the problem that I am discussing is not "What do we do once an AFK cloakers launches an attack," but "AFK cloaking for 23/7 for the sole purpose of disupting activities with no means of countering is overpowered."
And who's fault is this? The Cloaker, or the people too afraid to go out there anyhow and do their thing while being more alert?
0.0 space isn't meant to be the kiddie ride you had to be so tall to ride on. If you're entire operation shuts down for weeks on end simply because there's one guy in local... hard to blame that one guy for that.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2011.04.11 16:58:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki I get what you're saying, but you're also looking at a much lower population cap in null which some would argue is a bad thing. Escorting freighters does make for some interesting situations but it's so tedious and has so many work arounds that you'd have to roll back pretty far to revive that sort of thing. There's a certain balance to strike between tedium and interesting. And yes mining needs a boost period. Increasing the mineral amounts won't do much. Low-ends are oversupplied to the point of ridiculousness. Adding more mins will just drop the value further. So you'd have to do something to increase the value of each mineral as well.
I'm saying; increase the volume (size, not amount) of minerals. Make it not worth hauling them in JF/bridges, make it worth mining them.
Apart from that, yeah, freighter runs was tedious. But noone force you to build supercaps. It's a choice - you want this, you do the job. You don't, you won't have to. I've been escorting freighters, and while it's not really fun, it wasn't worse than gatecamping, POS defence, POS busts or any other sov-warfare. (boring like ****, but that's part of the sov game) -
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:14:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Selene Valkros
Local != safety. Local = warning. It merely shows that there is a problem. I does nothing to help deal with said problem once it appears. Local chat is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
lawl you dude have no clue. Local is the whole reason for afk cloaking. Without local there would be absolutely no need for afk cloaking. So if you have absolute safety without any effort due to local easy intel, there should be a disruption of local value by afk cloaking with exactly the same effort. Get over it.
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.11 17:27:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Misanth I'm saying; increase the volume (size, not amount) of minerals. Make it not worth hauling them in JF/bridges, make it worth mining them.
I could get behind that. Makes rorqs a bit more valuable too. I still don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have people be able to make good ratting isk and stay concentrated in a smaller group of systems. Bustling frontier metropolises seem like a good thing. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Selene Valkros
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:16:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Tippia That's the beauty of it: it wouldn't have to change.
AFK cloakers wouldn't create any problems, and AK cloakers would do what cloaking is supposed to do: keep hidden and spy and/or pounce on people.
While I intrinsically agree, especally given the nature of 0.0 space, that local should not display everyone in the system as it currently does now, changing the mechanics without changing cloaking would virtually empty 0.0 space. All you'd end up with are AFK cloakers sitting around going, "Now what do we do?" :P
People make comparisons to WH space, but WH space is limited by the amount of assets that can be brought into it. That's the bottleneck to counter the lack of local chat intel. That and the lack of cyno activation. And it works. It creates a dangrous environment with the constant possibility of attack without the near limitless assets that you can bring to bear in 0.0. It's not a perfect balance, but it's more balance than 0.0 currently has. |
Minsc
Gallente A.W.M
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:29:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Flibertygibbet
Originally by: Selene Valkros"Oh noes! I'm going from making 60 mil/hour to 40 mil/hour!" [/quote
0 isk an hour is how much you'll make from a haven/sanctum system with everybody and his grandmother queuing up to use it. I dont think cloakers are gonna be much of a problem with 50-60 in system... I suppose you could do planet stuffs. Or just go to empire.
Confirming again that sanctums are the only anom that pays out isk bounties. All other anoms pay out fluffy bunnies. You cannot make any isk by completing the other anoms...at all...not even a bit...no sir...zero isk from the other anomalies.
Also every time you complete a non-sanctum anomaly, god kills a kitten.
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Vid Eeomeet
Smoke 'n' Mirrors Knights Of Freedoms
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:04:00 -
[106]
As stated previously, cloaked pilots can not attack anybody. AFK pilots can not attack either. Pilots that are both cloaked and afk are certainly not going to be attacking.
Some extra caution is all that is needed to avoid / decrease the danger of being attacked. A simple repeated d-scan set for max range and degree will alert you an incoming ship. Lowsec and nullsec are dangerous for more reasons than tougher rats and a lack of concord.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:18:00 -
[107]
Originally by: WhatsforDiner
Originally by: Mag's Ever thought about Empire and running level 4's? Sounds more up your street.
I am a devoted 0.0 pvp'er my place is not in empire, there is a good sentence "A Soldier/Army marches on its stomach" Even a devoted pvper needs incomce, no income no pvp. And i dont have a alt, nor do i plan on paying another 15$ a month just to run lvl4's in empire.
A PvPer alsot needs targets.
Even if 90% of people ratting in 0.0 pos'd up upon the appearance of a neutral gand, that othter 10% created hunting targets.
Of the 90% that dock up, it wasn't uncommon for many groups or regions to see the enemy incursion as reason to form a pitchfork gang... when those formed you got competitive pvp, on top of the rabbit hunting picking off stray pvpers like in rl hunting.
If you reduce the ammount of time people spend in 0.0 you cut down on the numberst of pvp targets for the everyday roam stuff.
I've heard large numbers of 0.0 renter corps are ditching 0.0 occupation...I know that more corp-mates will spend time in empire doing level 4s meaning they'll be less available for pitchfork fleets as well as not being targets....
I know the goal was to make corps stop nap ing each other... yet ... well thats a much more complicated thing and the reality is that with a greater focus on fewer valuable systems that encourages pacts that will needed ever huger numbers of supercaps to contest in slide show scenarios.
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Douglass Bryant
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:22:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Vid Eeomeet As stated previously, cloaked pilots can not attack anybody. AFK pilots can not attack either.
And what, pray tell, informs you whether they are AFK or not?
A cloaked ship can scan you down, decloak, drop a cyno, get you pinned down, and jump his friends in faster than you can get out in most PVE ships. Of course, the best medicine is to stay aligned at all times, but occasionally that will not be enough either (it should be, but everyone has their bad days, a misclick, lag, etc). It only takes seconds for the cyno to light and well trained black ops and covert ops FCs will ensure those events are as simultaneous as the servers will provide for. I've been on both sides.
The reality of the situation is that there is no real way to know if the pilot is behind the keyboard or not. Only an idiot assumes his enemy is sleeping. And with that risk in place, there's no reason to go out and risk getting hotdropped regardless of how prepared you may think you are, unless you enjoy receiving killmails with Guristas Pirate as the top damage dealer.
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FeralShadow
RipStar. United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:22:00 -
[109]
This is all I'm going to say on the subject:
Afk cloakers while being AFK ARE DOING ACTIVE HARM
They're limiting or eliminating your isk gain.
AFK cloakers while being AFK are also doing PASSIVE HARM
In that they can become active and kill you with no notice or warning at any given time.
That is all. _______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:41:00 -
[110]
Originally by: FeralShadow This is all I'm going to say on the subject:
Afk cloakers while being AFK ARE DOING ACTIVE HARM
No, they're not, by simple virtue of not being there and not being active.
Quote: They're limiting or eliminating your isk gain.
No, they're not, again by simple virtue of not being there and not being active.
These are simply the doing of the self-imposed victim.
Quote: AFK cloakers while being AFK are also doing PASSIVE HARM In that they can become active and kill you with no notice or warning at any given time.
That doesn't sound particularly passive at all, and most certainly not AFKà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:43:00 -
[111]
Originally by: FeralShadow This is all I'm going to say on the subject:
Afk cloakers while being AFK ARE DOING ACTIVE HARM
They're limiting or eliminating your isk gain.
AFK cloakers while being AFK are also doing PASSIVE HARM
In that they can become active and kill you with no notice or warning at any given time.
That is all.
so? You are actively doing harm to pvp pilots using local as intel and hide as they enter local.
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Minsc
Gallente A.W.M
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:44:00 -
[112]
Originally by: FeralShadow This is all I'm going to say on the subject:
Afk cloakers while being AFK ARE DOING ACTIVE HARM
They're limiting or eliminating your isk gain.
AFK cloakers while being AFK are also doing PASSIVE HARM
In that they can become active and kill you with no notice or warning at any given time.
That is all.
No YOU'RE limiting or eliminating your isk gain. If the fact that an afk cloaker is sitting in your system is stopping you from ratting then that is completely and entirely on your head. You are not entitled to make 60 million isk/hr but if you want to take the risk (and that includes any risk player related or npc related) then you have the opportunity to make it. If YOU CHOOSE not to take that risk then you can find other means to make isk at a lower rate. There's plenty of other options in 0.0 for making isk if that option is not available.
Geez Nullbears are worse than hisec bears ffs.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:48:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: FeralShadow This is all I'm going to say on the subject:
Afk cloakers while being AFK ARE DOING ACTIVE HARM
No, they're not, by simple virtue of not being there and not being active.
Quote: They're limiting or eliminating your isk gain.
No, they're not, again by simple virtue of not being there and not being active.
These are simply the doing of the self-imposed victim.
Quote: AFK cloakers while being AFK are also doing PASSIVE HARM In that they can become active and kill you with no notice or warning at any given time.
That doesn't sound particularly passive at all, and most certainly not AFKà
If their presence reduces the number of potential targets they are doing harm imo.
They do have some benefits too, and its an important philosphy to the game.. i'm not for the complete elemination of long term cloacking at all .
One point does seem true.. that reducing the number of lucrative 0.0 systems will make the effect somewhat greater.
Perception and reaction is key.... even if you are technically correct that AFK people can do no harm, that misses the fact that if people see them that way and change their behaviour the effects caused by their actual behaviour are the facts on the ground.
It makes no matter what people should do but what they are actually doing. If targets are reduced mechanics should be tinkered with to increase the number of targets...
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FeralShadow
RipStar. United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:51:00 -
[114]
Fine. They're doing passive harm by limiting your income because when they do ACTIVE harm by being randomly active at any given time of day they kill your ship. ;)
I believe local should be destroyed and afk cloakers able to be found. Then that would be two birds dead with a singular small spherical object made of densely packed particulate.
_______________________________________________ "If you want to taste the ground, feel free to attack." - Kenshin Himura
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JitaBUGz TheGreat
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:54:00 -
[115]
So let me get this right. All the big dog, talk trash in local blob fleet carebears are crying cause a cloaky is messing up there Isk fountain?
You want a nurf to cloak? But what of us that are not in a 0.0 allience that live out there. And rat in a enemy sov system, and rely on a cloak to survive?
Real easy for the QQ ppl that want it the easy way to cry for all the nurfs in there favor.
Want to avoid a death from a cloaky in 3 easy steps?
1. Rat with a friend.(yes you may have to share some of that isk) 2. Align to safe, or station. 3. Scan is ur best friend, if no one else likes u.
Lasty dont fly what u cant afford to loose.
And if one cloaky in system is keeping u from ratting, maybe 0.0 is not the place for all you whiners.
op- "I personally think its unbalanced as it is now and we should get a new tool to counter this because as stated before - we cannot rat where ever we like anymore.." ^ Risk=Reward
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:58:00 -
[116]
Originally by: FeralShadow Fine. They're doing passive harm by limiting your income because when they do ACTIVE harm by being randomly active at any given time of day they kill your ship.
Still no. The only harm done is by the self-imposed victim. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Theodoric Darkwind
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:06:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Mag's Ever thought about Empire and running level 4's? Sounds more up your street.
I have to agree with our flashy friend here, though personally id prefer to see more blackops hotdropping goodness hehehehehe.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:09:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: FeralShadow Fine. They're doing passive harm by limiting your income because when they do ACTIVE harm by being randomly active at any given time of day they kill your ship.
Still no. The only harm done is by the self-imposed victim.
Even if self imposed, it is a result.
The question is , does the result add or subtract from the game ?
I think things like suicide ganking in high sec add to the game even though many high sec carebears hate it... they don't realize that having something to fear actually keeps the game more thrilling to them and makes what isk they keep more contextually meaningful.
I'm on the fence however with the anomolie changes and any more accentuated affect the akf cloakers might have.
The vital question to me is... "are there more targets because of these changes".... thats probably my top personal priorty. I don't care if i "should" have more target.. but if I "do" have more targets.
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Bollox Reader
Farkistan GED Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:00:00 -
[119]
I've been away from Eve for quite a while, so I guessed I missed the patch notes about rats being removed from nullsec belts outside of "sanctum" systems. Must suck having no bounties out there outside of a handful perma AFK'd systems.
No idea how it is now (been away since pre-Dominion days) but back in the day, you could make ISK in any system out there, admittedly more in some than others.
Oh, btw, welcome to Eve, don't expect anything to remain stable for long. The devs are ALWAYS tinkering and anything you like from one patch is going to be "rebalanced" in the next expansion.
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rock crawlermne
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:07:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Mr Kidd I keep saying this but apparently, noone from nullsec gets it.
I live in a wh. We don't have local so the assumption is always that someone is in the system. It never stops us from running anomalies that can be found even without the use of probes. So, HTFU?
supported, as a WH dweler myself I agree to this sound logic.
Ok guys it's like this. I spent time in nullsec, as part of a very large alliance. I was a good 40 jumps deep, far beyond any enemy harassment. and anyone that did come up our pipe was seen on intel way before they reached our system. I could rat/run sanctums without even worrying about my ship.
I remember one day, i accidentaly left my ship on a gate for 30 minets while i grabbed some food...I came back and was safe and sound.
the point? As a member of a large alliance, my goodies where practicaly given to me. So with this new patch, I'm actualy going to have to watch my back and work in a 0.0 system in order to stay alive? OMG am I actually going to have to coordinate with teamates to watch my back/help me stay safe in said systems w/ these ellusive 'afk' cloakers who might not be afk?
Null sec before the patch was slowly becoming a selective group of a few large alliances that could set up a defensive permieter 15 jumps away and keep their carebears safe. Now it's a dangerouse place where people can get jumped and making money isn't a for sure thing, but people who work together and fly together now are making the money. The lone wolvs are being replaced by gangs of ratters, OMG NO, not in an MMO. Running sites now might even require pvp fit ships with Logi support OMG NO.
Null sec's been fixed, not broken. Your steady isk income stream with no risk and all reward system has been broken.
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