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Damion Rayne
Gallente Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2011.04.11 07:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Damion Rayne on 11/04/2011 07:45:15 CCP TonyG's Words Words Words a lovely video by CCP TonyG who reads some words from his new novel, goes over some info about Dust 514 and the Eve online IP as a whole and around 28 min into the video TonyG starts speaking about Ship Crews and posting this Chart.. Chart
So..the debate is over, this chart will be published officially by CCP Games. So there you have it, yes they do exist and yes there are crew on capsuleer piloted ships.
-DR
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Verone
Gallente Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.04.11 10:36:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Verone on 11/04/2011 10:39:07
If those numbers are being considered canon, then there's more than a few pieces of prime fiction that'll need re-hashing.
Looking at the link, the columns are also listed as MINIMUM crew... which would suggest an off-rota non-combat skeleton crew as described on FNS Wandering Saint in The Empyrean Age.
The list still doesn't give a clear representation of how heavily crewed hulls would be in a full service combat situation.
>>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<< |
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CCP Delegate Zero
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Posted - 2011.04.11 10:46:00 -
[3]
Edited by: CCP Delegate Zero on 11/04/2011 10:47:04
Originally by: Verone If those numbers are being considered canon, then there's more than a few pieces of prime fiction that'll need re-hashing.
If you can think of any, do flag them up but on one possible point here it is worth bearing in mind Tony's commentary on the slide with respect to the difference between minimum crew and the max capacity. In summary: min crew = what's needed to undock an unfitted ship / max capacity = crew needed for fully-fitted ship with all modules plus also additional personnel (troops, passengers - now the thing is that how the max capacity divides into 'full crew'/'passengers' is left unspecified, which is probably a good thing).
The point being that the slide does not contradict, for eg, Hands of a Killer.
Delegate Zero
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Shaalira D'arc
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Posted - 2011.04.11 20:14:00 -
[4]
Thanks for sharing this.
Here's an alternate, more hi-res capture of the youtube chart, for better legibility. The spoken presentation gives context to the numbers, and you can hear it at around 28:43.
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
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Posted - 2011.04.11 21:34:00 -
[5]
FYI @ Delegate Zero: Tony also said: "We are gonna publish this within the next 2 weeks" I guess my calendar must be off then, or I've missed it.
I guess you guys got sidetracked again. No biggie, I think the RP community is used to it by now.
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Azureite
Amarr Special Forces Operation Detachment Delta The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2011.04.11 22:16:00 -
[6]
I'm very pleased to see this
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.12 12:51:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 12/04/2011 12:58:15 Quite interesting. I would like to know if there are significant differences in the numbers of crew members in the tech levels of ship. I always assumed that T2 requires less crew then the T1 ship, because of less space used to accomodate crew they can afford to built in more advanced systems. Not sure where T3 stands there.
Edit:
I also wonder why Caldari have a +10% modifier for crew numbers and the Amarr a +5%.
The Caldari are one of the most advanced races in the EVE cluster. Whether the Caldari or Gallente have a more advanced design is debatable. For the Amarr life is cheap even in the hulls of a spaceship and few holders would mind the conditions the slaves would have to endure abord a cramped ship.
I would reduce the Caldari Modifier to 0% or even -5% while the Amarr get at least a +15% modifier.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.04.12 13:10:00 -
[8]
Publishing the information properly, possibly with reasoning, would be welcome.
Guesses:
Minmatar: Maintenance and manual-labour heavy technology, low level of automation. Gallente: Drones. Caldari: Maintenance-heavy high technology. Amarr: Combination of low-maintenance technology, drones and still using a lot of manual labour.
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Shaalira D'arc
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Posted - 2011.04.12 16:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
I also wonder why Caldari have a +10% modifier for crew numbers and the Amarr a +5%.
The Amarr have been in space far, far longer than the Caldari have. Technical development doesn't just involve research concepts, it also involves implementation experience and development over use.
It's quite feasible that the extensive Amarrian experience in spaceflight gives them a lot of insight into efficient ship design and cost-effective organization of crews.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.04.13 01:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 13/04/2011 01:20:07 -removed-
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Fenris Ulfur
Bio Material Inc
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Posted - 2011.04.13 13:20:00 -
[11]
These numbers are already on the Wiki in the description of ship classes, and looking at the change history, have been since november 2010.
For example: Frigates and Cruisers
But still awesome to finally get hard numbers like those, and in a table no less --------------------------------------------------------------------- "But rather than that you question my courage, let someone put his hand in my mouth as a pledge that this is done in good faith" |
Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
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Posted - 2011.04.14 00:10:00 -
[12]
I did some research on this last September, looking through EVE Chronicles and various other sources. Of particular interest were some old images of ship schematics which detailed crew and passenger numbers. They've been doing the rounds for years, but I can't be certain of the original source.
I wrote a Freebooted blogpost at that time detailing my findings.
There definitely appears to be some variation between these new figures and the information I found.
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
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Posted - 2011.04.14 02:59:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Che Biko on 14/04/2011 03:00:22 I would still like to see more clarification to the chart. I've always understood that most frigates' only crew is the capsuleer, but if min. crew is about a ship with no modules, this may be somewhat different than we think.
For clarity, I would also like to know what a capsuleer ship needs as a minumum crew in the "worst case" scenario (fully fitted with labour intensive modules (the maximum minimum)).
Edit: See, it's not over.
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.04.14 03:34:00 -
[14]
It makes sense to me that capsuleer-piloted ships would have a number of crew for a fully-fitted ship somewhere between the top-end of the "min. crew" and the bottom end of the "max capacity".
But yeah, some clarification on that would most certainly be welcome. The Hands of a Killer chronicle says 6,314 for a capsuleer-piloted battleship... which doesn't sit right with me.
I mean, goodness. I thought half the point of capsuleer-piloted ships was the less stringent crew requirements. Kinda loses its prestige if fully-fitted ships end up with the same crew counts as baseliner-piloted ships...
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Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:04:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Seismic Stan on 14/04/2011 10:04:16 With regard to the requirement of a crew even for a capsuleer-controlled ship, one thing that seems to smack of inconsistency is the existence of rogue drones. They are fully-automated self-sufficient machines, which strongly suggests that the technology exists for a ship of any size to operate without a crew.
In light of this fresh information, I wrote a quick blogpost about it. Eric Deloitte commented with the following questions concerning crews, which are well worth consideration:
Who pays them, it certainly isnt me?
Why dont I have to pay millions in compensation to their families when my negligence leads to their untimely demise?
Why does Concord penalise you massively for killing a pod, but killing hundreds of crew warrants a minor sec hit?
Where do they come from, surely these people must be highly skilled and trained, why is there a never ending supply?
Why the hell do I need to dock to repair, surely one of the hundreds of meatbags stinking up my corridors can wield a spanner?
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.04.14 16:05:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Teranul on 14/04/2011 16:07:17
I'm no dev, but I'm gonna give these a shot anyways.
Originally by: Seismic Stan
Who pays them, it certainly isnt me?
I assumed crew costs were included with the initial cost of the ship. However, this doesn't account for extended deployments. A most curious omission...
Originally by: Seismic Stan Why dont I have to pay millions in compensation to their families when my negligence leads to their untimely demise?
Employee contracts.
They knew the risks when they signed up. In fact, many capsuleer-ship crew members are legally dead...
Originally by: Seismic Stan Why does Concord penalise you massively for killing a pod, but killing hundreds of crew warrants a minor sec hit?
Life is cheap.
Except when it's a capsuleer. New Eden runs on money, y'know.
Originally by: Seismic Stan Where do they come from, surely these people must be highly skilled and trained, why is there a never ending supply?
In a cluster with trillions of people, you really think finding trained professionals is an issue? Statistically speaking, capsuleers are less than 0.0000001% of the population. Hundreds of thousands of them in a star cluster with a population in the trillions.
Finding a few thousand crew members in such a world is child's play.
Originally by: Seismic Stan Why the hell do I need to dock to repair, surely one of the hundreds of meatbags stinking up my corridors can wield a spanner?
They could do it, sure... it'd just take years to do it.
Think about how long it takes you to repair with a repair module, which has billions upon billions of advanced nanobots doing the work. Now think about a human trying to do the same.
Kind of a silly question, really.
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Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
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Posted - 2011.04.14 22:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Teranul
I'm no dev, but I'm gonna give these a shot anyways.
Originally by: Seismic Stan
Who pays them, it certainly isnt me?
I assumed crew costs were included with the initial cost of the ship. However, this doesn't account for extended deployments. A most curious omission...
I agree, it is difficult to quantify. I suppose we could assume that there's some kind of personnel payment fund hidden within the various taxes that we pay. In other words, we don't pay the crews directly, their wage is supplied by the state. Not entirely satisfactory, but it's the best I can come up with.
Originally by: Teranul
Originally by: Seismic Stan Why dont I have to pay millions in compensation to their families when my negligence leads to their untimely demise?
Employee contracts.
They knew the risks when they signed up. In fact, many capsuleer-ship crew members are legally dead...
Yeah, this one is easily explained away by the contract they sign at the start of their careers. Also, if we extend the state-backed wage scheme, some compensation could also come from the state which could explain why some individuals are willing to engage in such a dangerous occupation.
Originally by: Teranul
Originally by: Seismic Stan Why does Concord penalise you massively for killing a pod, but killing hundreds of crew warrants a minor sec hit?
Life is cheap.
Except when it's a capsuleer. New Eden runs on money, y'know.
No argument from me - Capsuleers run the galactic economy. It does make you wonder how this got past the Sisters of EVE though.
Originally by: Teranul
Originally by: Seismic Stan Where do they come from, surely these people must be highly skilled and trained, why is there a never ending supply?
In a cluster with trillions of people, you really think finding trained professionals is an issue? Statistically speaking, capsuleers are less than 0.0000001% of the population. Hundreds of thousands of them in a star cluster with a population in the trillions.
Finding a few thousand crew members in such a world is child's play.
I have to disagree here. I took the time to do the maths on this last year and if you consider all the crewed ships (NPC and capsuleer) that are destroyed on a daily basis, with the survival rates listed in CCP t0nyG's table, the attrition rate is shocking. Check out The End of New Eden is Nigh for more details. I admit, the figures for the total population of New Eden are very subjective (which is why I also wrote New Eden is Saved), but in principle the death toll seems unsustainable.
Originally by: Teranul
Originally by: Seismic Stan Why the hell do I need to dock to repair, surely one of the hundreds of meatbags stinking up my corridors can wield a spanner?
They could do it, sure... it'd just take years to do it.
Think about how long it takes you to repair with a repair module, which has billions upon billions of advanced nanobots doing the work. Now think about a human trying to do the same.
Kind of a silly question, really.
This makes sense. There is not really any way you could expect the ships crew to effective repairs anywhere near the rate we are used to from automated armour and hull repairers or from station facilities. It would be nice if an effective repair crew could give a slight boost to existing modules though, even if it could only be to a maximum percentage. But that's a whole other can of worms.
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Teranul
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Posted - 2011.04.14 23:03:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Teranul on 14/04/2011 23:04:51
Originally by: Seismic Stan I have to disagree here. I took the time to do the maths on this last year and if you consider all the crewed ships (NPC and capsuleer) that are destroyed on a daily basis, with the survival rates listed in CCP t0nyG's table, the attrition rate is shocking. Check out The End of New Eden is Nigh for more details. I admit, the figures for the total population of New Eden are very subjective (which is why I also wrote New Eden is Saved), but in principle the death toll seems unsustainable.
Hahaha, wow!
I did always think the number of battleships I destroyed on a daily basis is pretty silly, but that really puts it into perspective. However, that is more a problem with NPC deaths, the sheer numbers of which are completely ridiculous no matter how you spin it.
I do sometimes wonder if it would be preferable to just buff all the NPC rats and cut their numbers in half or something to aid in the believability of the world. I'm killing hundreds of thousands of virtual people a day, and I'm just one capsuleer (in a ship more expensive than a medium-sized country's GDP, mind, but still just one)!
Then again, I imagine the birth rate is also astronomically high in the EVE Universe... who can really say? I'd love it if a CCP-er could weigh in on this *hint, hint*...
Loving the discussion, by the way. It's always nice to flesh out the world a bit. One of the biggest appeals of sci-fi, at least to me.
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Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
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Posted - 2011.04.15 00:06:00 -
[19]
I've just done a bit of number-crunching based on my previously mentioned figures, applying the listed crew survival rates.
If we work on the basis that, over the course of a year, 10 trillion crewmen are aboard starships at the time of destruction and the average crew survival rate is approximately 35% (the ball-park average of the figures listed in the table), this means that 6.5 trillion are dying in space per year.
Given that I've calculated that the population of New Eden is roughly 250 trillion, 6.5 trillion deaths per year would wipe out the entire population in a little under 40 years.
The 21st Century population mortality rate is 0.84%. The New Eden crew mortality rate is over three times that at 2.6%.
I suspect that the general mortality rate in New Eden is as high, if not higher than modern day. For every safe developed world in New Eden, there are many more frontier worlds, so I doubt that advanced medicine and cloning technology will be making much of a dent in galactic mortality rates from other causes of death like old age, disease and war (especially given the previously mentioned 'life is cheap' philosophy that seems to be prevalent in New Eden). 21st century Earthbound life provides few harsh frontiers compared to New Eden. So let's call New Eden's general mortality rate 1%.
1%+2.6%=3.6%
At a 3.6% galactic mortality rate I think, as BSG's President Laura Roslin once said; "People need to start having babies."
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Mirabi Tiane
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Posted - 2011.04.15 05:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Seismic Stan With regard to the requirement of a crew even for a capsuleer-controlled ship, one thing that seems to smack of inconsistency is the existence of rogue drones. They are fully-automated self-sufficient machines, which strongly suggests that the technology exists for a ship of any size to operate without a crew.
Because the development of that technology had great results. The word "rogue" in "rogue drones" is just propaganda from overly harsh critics, amirite? _____________________________ [Sebiestor tattoos and Intaki hair: NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER.] |
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Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
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Posted - 2011.04.15 10:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mirabi Tiane
Originally by: Seismic Stan With regard to the requirement of a crew even for a capsuleer-controlled ship, one thing that seems to smack of inconsistency is the existence of rogue drones. They are fully-automated self-sufficient machines, which strongly suggests that the technology exists for a ship of any size to operate without a crew.
Because the development of that technology had great results. The word "rogue" in "rogue drones" is just propaganda from overly harsh critics, amirite?
I see your point, but there are non-rogue drones in common usage too. I merely used rogue drones to exemplify that the technology exists and it is possible to fully automate a ship, not that it didn't need refinement.
I appreciate that CCP t0nyG's table reflects the use of drone technology with the percentage modifiers, but it seems odd to me that drones (be they rogue or otherwise) have mechanical systems within that allow for the reloading of weapons, the control of fuels, the redirection of energy for shields and even basic decision-making, yet those same systems require crew on a capsuleer-controlled ship despite the huge advantages of capsule-tech. Like I said, inconsistent.
But I don't really mind. Personally, I prefer the idea of having a crew, but I cannot see why the canon wouldn't allow those brave enough to fully automate their ships unless there are future plans to include some kind of crew mechanic into the game.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Seismic Stan Edited by: Seismic Stan on 14/04/2011 10:09:41
With regard to the requirement of a crew even for a capsuleer-controlled ship, one thing that seems to smack of inconsistency is the existence of rogue drones. They are fully-automated self-sufficient machines, which strongly suggests that the technology exists for a ship of any size to operate without a crew.
That's what I'm saying. A fully automated crew seems not only plausible, but the most likely scenario in New Eden. Why the hell would you have 6,000 meat-bags on your ship, crapping in the john, eating all of your food, and more or less stinking up the place?
On the same note, why do the Amarr need slaves? Wouldn't it be FAR easier to automate and make robots your slaves instead? You don't have to feed and house them, or force inject them with Vitoc, and they will never rebel. Seems logical to me, unless of course the reason you keep slaves is sexual in nature (which wouldn't surprise me with the Amarr...just sayin).
For me these are huge holes big enough to fly a titan through; it has a big impact on immersion. But I do understand that it's a tight line to walk between making a believable world and having a great game; some compromise and fudging is necessary to make both of them work together.
~Gnosis~ |
Idonis Callor
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Posted - 2011.04.15 18:23:00 -
[23]
Not only rogue drones operate crewless, Gallente ships Prior to the Gallente/Caldari War were meant to be nothing but oversized drones.
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San Fransisco
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:22:00 -
[24]
I would like a "Crew" update. the different ship sizes could have different crew slots and you would have to hire crew at a station to restock after a ship loss.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.15 20:49:00 -
[25]
Seismic Stan said "have mechanical systems within that allow for the reloading of weapons, the control of fuels, the redirection of energy for shields and even basic decision-making, yet those same systems require crew on a capsuleer-controlled ship despite the huge advantages of capsule-tech. Like I said, inconsistent. " But those systems don't require crew. Didn't tony list some of those examples like reloading of weapons as automated with drones for Gallente while the others choose to use humans.
Also those are examples of typical ships so there is no reason you cannot role-play that you have more automatic systems them normal due to some custom rigs. There is no reason all Minmatar have to do the things the hard way with more crew there could be some Minmatar that automate lots of drones.
Think of a ship like a Dominix there are most likely 100's if not 1000's of variations of the base hull over the years. Kind of like cars where you get custom modified cars. I don't see anything wrong or inconsistent. Those crew numbers are just guidelines.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Roga Dracor
Caldari Mental Disorders Inc. Infinite Conflux
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:48:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Roga Dracor on 15/04/2011 21:52:17 The biggest reason the Empires don't use drones to fully automate a ship is pretty obvious from fiction. The "rogue" drones are self aware. They are sentient. To use them in the capacities you infer would require the same AI that caused the "rogues" to emerge as sentient beings.
And would then require a system of control or full acquiesence of the personalities the "rogues" have developed. So either you compensate the drones in some way, or you develop an electronic Vitoc to control them, which would effectively make you just another slaver.
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Logan LaMort
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.15 23:33:00 -
[27]
I'm quite pleased with these kinds of numbers, I mean, they're pretty much spot on for how I imagined it with ships of these size.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.04.16 01:43:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 16/04/2011 01:44:22
Originally by: Seismic Stan I've just done a bit of number-crunching based on my previously mentioned figures, applying the listed crew survival rates.
If we work on the basis that, over the course of a year, 10 trillion crewmen are aboard starships at the time of destruction and the average crew survival rate is approximately 35% (the ball-park average of the figures listed in the table), this means that 6.5 trillion are dying in space per year.
Given that I've calculated that the population of New Eden is roughly 250 trillion, 6.5 trillion deaths per year would wipe out the entire population in a little under 40 years.
The 21st Century population mortality rate is 0.84%. The New Eden crew mortality rate is over three times that at 2.6%.
I suspect that the general mortality rate in New Eden is as high, if not higher than modern day. For every safe developed world in New Eden, there are many more frontier worlds, so I doubt that advanced medicine and cloning technology will be making much of a dent in galactic mortality rates from other causes of death like old age, disease and war (especially given the previously mentioned 'life is cheap' philosophy that seems to be prevalent in New Eden). 21st century Earthbound life provides few harsh frontiers compared to New Eden. So let's call New Eden's general mortality rate 1%.
1%+2.6%=3.6%
At a 3.6% galactic mortality rate I think, as BSG's President Laura Roslin once said; "People need to start having babies."
Agreed, it's silly. Also, societies so desperate that so many will consistently throw their lives away for pennies does not jive with a believable technologically developed society. What would make it all work out is drastically increasing the survival rate. If 90% expected to survive an exploding ship, then it would make sense why so many would choose the life of a space fairer, if the pay was good enough.
But a lot of things in the EVE world are silly. Like why there's hundreds of pirate battleships in Motsu on any given day. Why CONCORD can't stop those pirate battleships. And why every one of those pirate battleships will always, always fight to the death.
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
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Posted - 2011.04.16 02:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Also, societies so desperate that so many will consistently throw their lives away for pennies does not jive with a believable technologically developed society.
Keep in mind though, that wealth, luxury and technology probably is as well spread in New Eden as it is on earth (not). Although the west is pretty wealthy and advanced in technology, there's billions of people living on 1 dollar a day, and usually don't have much access to stuff like internet, microwaves and stuff. You won't believe the stuff some refugees go through to make it into the west. So I'm guessing there's at least a significant portion of New Eden that's desperate enough.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.16 10:32:00 -
[30]
All ships use probably drones for various tasks, but they still need to be controlled by humans, or at least a human overseer who can respond to situations beyond that fall outside the drones initial programming. Using more advanced AIs instead might be possible, but it is also quite dangerous.
So drones with limited AI are useless without human instructions, but drones with advanced AI cannot be trusted and might go rogue.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.04.16 20:00:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Che Biko
Originally by: Emperor Cheney Also, societies so desperate that so many will consistently throw their lives away for pennies does not jive with a believable technologically developed society.
Keep in mind though, that wealth, luxury and technology probably is as well spread in New Eden as it is on earth (not). Although the west is pretty wealthy and advanced in technology, there's billions of people living on 1 dollar a day, and usually don't have much access to stuff like internet, microwaves and stuff. You won't believe the stuff some refugees go through to make it into the west. So I'm guessing there's at least a significant portion of New Eden that's desperate enough.
But if people are that isolated, how can they have sufficient education to be useful as starship crew? And if tasks are so simple that completely uneducated, untrained people can do them, why have those tasks not been simply automated? Like most sci-fi universes, the sociological economy of the eve world falls apart the second you think about it.
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Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
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Posted - 2011.04.16 22:40:00 -
[32]
Well, I once read a story in EON about someone who lied about his education to join a capsuleer ship. He kinda worshipped that egger like a god. Considering the demand for crew members, I would think it's a plausible scenario that background checking isn't too thorough.
I also think the opposite might be true, capsuleers might lie about the survival rate of their ships.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.04.17 00:23:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Che Biko Well, I once read a story in EON about someone who lied about his education to join a capsuleer ship. He kinda worshipped that egger like a god. Considering the demand for crew members, I would think it's a plausible scenario that background checking isn't too thorough.
I also think the opposite might be true, capsuleers might lie about the survival rate of their ships.
With billions dying a year, I doubt the secret would be still in the bag.
The whole crew thing is really undeveloped. Pretty much everything not strictly about capsuleers is undeveloped, and even many things regarding capsuleers.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.17 07:39:00 -
[34]
In the same way there are racial modifiers for crew sizes there should also be the similar modifiers for escape rates based on racial design; system security; perhaps sovereignty.
The Amarr design are unlikely to be unduly concerned with providing lifeboats for slave crews (e.g -20% survival). The Gallente and Caldari by comparison are likely to have sufficient lifeboats for the entire crew, with the number successfully launched mostly governed by circumstances (0%). The sheer will to survive and no man or slave left behind attitude giving the Minmatar enhanced survival rates (+5%).
Given the CONCORD rapid response in high sec, I find it some likely that crew that didn't make it to life boats could be rescued from air tight sections or safe havens in wrecks (c.f. Empyrean Age). Perhaps similar to the system security as a percentage e.g. +1% to -1%.
There are reasons why they both Gallente and Caldari might have enhanced rescue capability in their sovereignty. The Gallente passion for life and relative wealth. The pragmatic need of the Caldari to minimise losses due to their smaller population.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2011.04.17 13:09:00 -
[35]
Uh ... lets see ... how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin ...
*sigh*
Yeah ... we've all known for some time that the ships were supposed to have crews - but - the game doesn't include them. There are no ejection capsules for crews ... etc ... etc ...
Now ... about Amarrians having Slaves in their crews ... no one in their right mind would crew their warships with slaves. If you've seen Ben Hur - it's bull ****. No one risked their war ships on the performance of a bunch of slaves. Boarding was common place in ancient times and you'd have just been giving the enemy a whole bunch of people on your ship to help them if they could be set free. Whatever other ships might have had slave crews - I don't know - but the war ships didn't.
If it has some how been cannonized into EVE back story that the Amarrians use slaves on their war ships - then THAT is just bull ****.
Of course ... there's already so much bull **** in the EVE back story ... that a little more won't make any difference.
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Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Wen Jaibao
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.04.17 15:30:00 -
[36]
Well I hope this means we'll start seeing crew bonuses on the drawing board. |
Saju Somtaaw
Kagan-Trjula Industrial
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Posted - 2011.04.18 05:16:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Now ... about Amarrians having Slaves in their crews ... no one in their right mind would crew their warships with slaves. If you've seen Ben Hur - it's bull ****. No one risked their war ships on the performance of a bunch of slaves. Boarding was common place in ancient times and you'd have just been giving the enemy a whole bunch of people on your ship to help them if they could be set free. Whatever other ships might have had slave crews - I don't know - but the war ships didn't.
If it has some how been cannonized into EVE back story that the Amarrians use slaves on their war ships - then THAT is just bull ****.
Of course ... there's already so much bull **** in the EVE back story ... that a little more won't make any difference.
.
Did you miss the fact that the Amarr use Vitoc to keep slaves in line? Considering that as of now their is no easy supply of the antidote and the "virus" Vitoc contains/controls mutates randomly and regularly in a manner only the Amarr can predict I think its not unrealistic for Amarr ships to use heavy slave labor. Plus boarding doesn't happen often with Eve ships. ---- --- ---
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Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.04.18 09:48:00 -
[38]
On slaves:
Despite the caricatured handling of slaves in fiction, I would personally find it likely that a good portion of the Amarr slave population is either throughly brainwashed or otherwise in such of a position that they obey their masters not out of fear or chemical dependence, but because "that's what they do". Of course, keeping them hooked to a drug which main function is to keep them hooked to itself helps when you control the supply, but I'd assume it's only needed on some of the population.
Also on Vitoc & Insorum (Vitoc antidote): I understand that Insorum is highly poisonous to the population which is not treated with Vitoc. So if Insorum spreads, it is advantageous to the Amarr to use other means to supplement Vitoc - since that way, if the Freedom Fighters resort to mass use of Insorum (say, aerial spray) again, they'll kill a lot more of their own kinsmen that they'd do now.
On crew:
Yes, ships have crew. Some crew survives, some doesn't. I understand that one of the chronicles deals with crew that has been salvaged from wrecks, living in storage hangars outside all records. So, when you loot a module, you're likely to pick up the surviving portion of its crew, as well.
I wouldn't mind if crew would appear in the salvage loot tables for ship wrecks. Crew even could be used the same way as rigs - or even replace some rigs as equivalent crew squads (for example: "expert gunner crew quarters" as a module to the crew/rig slot). If you fire (remove) a crew, you lose it as they head elsewhere to seek for jobs. (Though that creates a problem if you do that in space, immersion-wise.)
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Jaik7
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Posted - 2011.04.19 16:04:00 -
[39]
someone mentioned rogue drones earlier as reasons why a ship could not be fully automated, but it seems to me that the drones are not actually sentient and innovative. i'm certain that obedient and advanced drones could be made if they programed them properly.
there's a number of behaviors that rogue drones engage in that make them seem intteligent, but they are no more intelligent than a crystal formation. both have order, both grow, both are inorganic.
all behaviors shown by rogue drones are shown in controled drones. combat, construction, mining, and exploration are what rogue drones are best known for. all of these behaviors have been used in controlled drones without them becoming alive. the rogue drones just had faulty programming that made them selfreplicate like a cancer. they are nothing more than tumors, errors in the programming.
i see no reason why ships, gallentean in particular, would need anyone more than a capsuleer.
Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente Eleutherian Guard
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Posted - 2011.04.19 16:47:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Now ... about Amarrians having Slaves in their crews ... no one in their right mind would crew their warships with slaves. If you've seen Ben Hur - it's bull ****. No one risked their war ships on the performance of a bunch of slaves. Boarding was common place in ancient times and you'd have just been giving the enemy a whole bunch of people on your ship to help them if they could be set free. Whatever other ships might have had slave crews - I don't know - but the war ships didn't.
If it has some how been cannonized into EVE back story that the Amarrians use slaves on their war ships - then THAT is just bull ****.
Of course ... there's already so much bull **** in the EVE back story ... that a little more won't make any difference.
.
This is EVE, not Ben Hur. ------------ Lum Gen Seriphyn Inhonores FDU Commanding Officer, Eleutherian Guard |
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.19 20:38:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Jaik7 someone mentioned rogue drones earlier as reasons why a ship could not be fully automated, but it seems to me that the drones are not actually sentient and innovative. i'm certain that obedient and advanced drones could be made if they programed them properly.
there's a number of behaviors that rogue drones engage in that make them seem intteligent, but they are no more intelligent than a crystal formation. both have order, both grow, both are inorganic.
all behaviors shown by rogue drones are shown in controled drones. combat, construction, mining, and exploration are what rogue drones are best known for. all of these behaviors have been used in controlled drones without them becoming alive. the rogue drones just had faulty programming that made them selfreplicate like a cancer. they are nothing more than tumors, errors in the programming.
i see no reason why ships, gallentean in particular, would need anyone more than a capsuleer.
That is what happened when a group of scientist tried to examine a small rogue drone: Postnatal
The drone in the story was only a very small one build to support the much larger combat combat rogue drones, the drone equivalent of a crew member.
A fully automated ship gives an AI, or even a hive of AI a very powerful tool and when the drones are intelligent enough to work without direct human observation and control, then they can function completely without humans. With a fully drone staffed crew, the drones will probably at one point decide to eject and kill his pod and then go their own way.
Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
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CCP Delegate Zero
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Posted - 2011.04.20 19:38:00 -
[42]
As promised, the public version of the ship crew guidelines has been published: New Eden Crew Guidelines
This evelopedia entry supersedes the slide shown at FanFest 2011.
The keen-eyed observers among you (so that's everyone) will note slight changes and some additional notes. In short, we took on board your feedback and we think the final version is the best guide to the issue of ship crews in New Eden.
Do take note of the word 'guidelines'. This information is not intended to be prescriptive or constraining on your imaginations as players. The entry discusses typical situations but New Eden is a diverse world and capsuleers are among the most diverse of its inhabitants.
Not every aspect of crewing is dealt with either. Some questions you have raised are best left in the realm of your imaginations.
Have fun, Zero
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Cyrus Doul
Infinite Development
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Posted - 2011.04.21 07:12:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Mithfindel stuff...
I wouldn't mind if crew would appear in the salvage loot tables for ship wrecks. Crew even could be used the same way as rigs - or even replace some rigs as equivalent crew squads (for example: "expert gunner crew quarters" as a module to the crew/rig slot). If you fire (remove) a crew, you lose it as they head elsewhere to seek for jobs. (Though that creates a problem if you do that in space, immersion-wise.)
I support anything that makes eve more like Sid Meiers Pirates. That game was the best.
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Mirabi Tiane
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Posted - 2011.04.21 08:05:00 -
[44]
"Slight changes"? Frigates suddenly have crews now. DERP. _____________________________ [Sebiestor tattoos and Intaki hair: NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER.] |
Haikato Saraki
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Posted - 2011.04.21 12:10:00 -
[45]
One important thing I really think needs to be remembered here is that EVE is a universe that is post-singularity. Death is in many ways almost optional. Consider this; Dust will be released "soon". Dust will be an online first person shooter set in the same multi-player universe as EVE. I can think of very few online FPS games that do NOT feature some type of re-spawning. Re-spawning is functionally identical to what happens when your pod is destroyed.
I don't think it is a huge logical leap to assume that some of the soldiers in Dust will be using similar technology to the capsules in orbit. If a soldier can use it then is there any reason why a specialist couldn't as well? A highly trained warp field technician? A sensor specialist? or a mechanic? Sure the clone quality wouldn't be as good as a capsulers but then it doesn't necessarily need to be.
In addition medical advances in a universe like EVE would make current day medicin look medieval. Genetic manipulation at conception would meen that modern diseases and ailments are eliminated completely. "Old age" could be a thing of the past.
Heres another thing to think about. In developing country's people make babies. Like a lot. Mortality rate is high but if you assume higher levels of medical technology then survival rates could mean as many as 90% of all births on boarder worlds make it to age 20 - 30. I recall a L1 or 2 mission from an agent that implied there are "skill-books" for the layman (mission was basicaly about the agent setting up a POS) while another Sisters of EVE quest heavily implies that the currency conversion from ISK to local planetary currency is massive. The same, if not better, as converting Euro to Yen. A capsulers crew might cost less than 50 isk a week, in total, for a crew of 300 or more. Think about it, while the pay would seem peanuts to us capsulers a few months aboard our ship could be enough to send the kids to space-collage, pay off the mortgage on the house and take an early retirement by the lake. Yeah the risk is very high but compared to a life on some crappy planet the excitement alone is probably enough to entice people.
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Ze'ev Sinraali
Ataraxia Pharmacies
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Posted - 2011.04.21 15:59:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ze''ev Sinraali on 21/04/2011 16:00:13 So, who wants to buy some advanced technologies to fill out their crew requirements?
Addendum: I would still like to get some clarification on the question of relative requirements for T2 ships. I've heard speculation that it's less, but it's also plausible that the advanced systems would require more.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:06:00 -
[47]
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 21/04/2011 18:08:38
Originally by: Haikato Saraki One important thing I really think needs to be remembered here is that EVE is a universe that is post-singularity. Death is in many ways almost optional.
If Eve is a post-Singularity universe, then why are we still fighting wars over resources? With nano-tech resources would be infinitely abundant. And why are only POD pilots given immortality, and with such a flawed technology at that (mind lock)? And why do the Amarr still have Minmatar slaves when it would much easier for them to have robot slaves? New Eden is definitely not a post-Singularity universe...which I guess can be explained away by the dark age it went through after the collapse of the Eve Gate.
~Gnosis~ |
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CCP Delegate Zero
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Posted - 2011.04.21 18:12:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ze'ev Sinraali
Addendum: I would still like to get some clarification on the question of relative requirements for T2 ships. I've heard speculation that it's less, but it's also plausible that the advanced systems would require more.
I would say that T2, T3 and faction ships (may as well include them here) are so varied and diverse in design, function, capability, etc. that it would be quite an effort to start clarifying and then stop at some arbitrary level (tech, class, sub-class, etc). The 'hull' figures can provide a guide but there is a fair latitude with the typical ranges we have provided and the atypical cases are no doubt plying their way through the spacelanes of New Eden.
One of those areas where player speculation and imagination has the run of the sandbox, in my own opinion.
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Haikato Saraki
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Posted - 2011.04.22 01:53:00 -
[49]
Quote: If Eve is a post-Singularity universe, then why are we still fighting wars over resources? With nano-tech resources would be infinitely abundant. And why are only POD pilots given immortality, and with such a flawed technology at that (mind lock)? And why do the Amarr still have Minmatar slaves when it would much easier for them to have robot slaves? New Eden is definitely not a post-Singularity universe...which I guess can be explained away by the dark age it went through after the collapse of the Eve Gate.
You cant build something from nothing. Honestly, production and refinery methods in EVE are beyond anything within our current or imaginable grasp. A few hundred asteroids can be turned into a battleship in less than a month compared to the years it might take to build a super carrier here on earth. Considering that battleships are significantly larger than a super carrier that's no small feat.
And whos to say other people ARNT given the same kind of immortality? as I said, if soldiers in Dust are using similar technology to what capsulers use then couldn't anyone?
As for the Amarr and why the POD tech is so flawed I dont have any good answers. Although I was under the impression that Amarr had a religious obsession with slavery.
EVE is definitely a dystopian universe but a universe advanced enough that one could consider it post singularity.
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Rek Jaiga
Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators
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Posted - 2011.04.22 02:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Haikato Saraki
As for the Amarr and why the POD tech is so flawed I dont have any good answers. Although I was under the impression that Amarr had a religious obsession with slavery.
EVE is definitely a dystopian universe but a universe advanced enough that one could consider it post singularity.
Confirming that the Amarr view slavery as genuinely beneficial the slaves, in that it "enlightens" them and "brings them closer to God". As for the pod tech, it actually isn't that flawed. It's actually a pretty novel idea, if you think about it.
As for the whole "post-Singularity" thing the EVE cluster is...for a price. Capsuleers and those on their payroll (DUST mercenaries) as well as high-ranking political and business leaders certainly have access to infomorph and cloning tech. At the same time the common planet-dweller is basically exploited for the benefit of the above-mentioned. So is EVE post-Singularity? Yes. But is it post-scarcity? Of course not. ------------------- The path which can be seen is not the True Path |
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.22 11:01:00 -
[51]
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 22/04/2011 11:01:23
Originally by: Haikato Saraki
Quote: If Eve is a post-Singularity universe, then why are we still fighting wars over resources? With nano-tech resources would be infinitely abundant. And why are only POD pilots given immortality, and with such a flawed technology at that (mind lock)? And why do the Amarr still have Minmatar slaves when it would much easier for them to have robot slaves? New Eden is definitely not a post-Singularity universe...which I guess can be explained away by the dark age it went through after the collapse of the Eve Gate.
You cant build something from nothing. Honestly, production and refinery methods in EVE are beyond anything within our current or imaginable grasp.
Well, no, not from nothing...from nanotubes and molecular machines. Once we go nano, we're effectively into post scarcity.
Originally by: Haikato Saraki
As for the Amarr and why the POD tech is so flawed I dont have any good answers. Although I was under the impression that Amarr had a religious obsession with slavery.
Yeah, that and sexual slavery are the only two things I can think of that would keep them from going with robotic slaves. Sick bastards.
~Gnosis~ |
Haikato Saraki
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Posted - 2011.04.23 09:49:00 -
[52]
Originally by: J Kunjeh Edited by: J Kunjeh on 22/04/2011 11:01:23 Well, no, not from nothing...from nanotubes and molecular machines. Once we go nano, we're effectively into post scarcity.
Micro-factory's and nano-machines can make construction more efficient and faster but it doesn't change the fact that over 8 million units of Tritanium are needed to build a Megathron.
These are big ship and a lot of mass is required to build them.
Honestly, after the revision, all the numbers make sense to me.
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Rek Jaiga
Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators
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Posted - 2011.04.24 15:35:00 -
[53]
Technically post-scarcity is a state in which goods and services are effectively free. This is clearly not the case in New Eden. ------------------- The path which can be seen is not the True Path |
J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.24 18:13:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Rek Jaiga Technically post-scarcity is a state in which goods and services are effectively free. This is clearly not the case in New Eden.
Yes, and they're free because their is a nearly unlimited supply with little to no human labor needed.
~Gnosis~ |
Rek Jaiga
Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators
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Posted - 2011.04.25 00:21:00 -
[55]
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Yes, and they're free because their is a nearly unlimited supply with little to no human labor needed.
Which is definitely not the case in New Eden, as can be seen with the Amarr Empire especially. ------------------- The path which can be seen is not the True Path |
X'aron
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Posted - 2011.06.23 02:39:00 -
[56]
Edited by: X''aron on 23/06/2011 02:39:40 seriously, if a crew was even a big part or "required" to keep a ship going, wouldnt there be lifepods when our ships explode? all this is fluff with no content. No crew decks, no info about sleeping quarters, mess hall. No isk maintenance to keep them paid, nothing for food..etc.
if it was anything major anyhow. Its not, its just background stuff that people want to argue over. /off
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Hiram Alexander
Caldari The Night Crew
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Posted - 2011.06.23 11:22:00 -
[57]
Originally by: X'aron Edited by: X''aron on 23/06/2011 02:39:40 <snip...> No crew decks, no info about sleeping quarters, mess hall. No isk maintenance to keep them paid, nothing for food..etc. <...snip>
Be careful what you wish for... Personally, I'd love to see crew in game, but *ahem* what's that gonna cost...? More than a skirt?
Checkout EON, soon(tm) --> Front cover, taken from Facebook HD Character Creation Videos - http://www.youtube.com/user/LexHiram?feature=mhsn |
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