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Is this normal in smallscale PVP?

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Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.18 17:37:00 - [1] Hello. Bit of a question for you experienced pvpers... Just been getting into pvp recently and would appreciate some advice. I've lost 2 ships now before I can react. First loss was a Stealth Bomber in 0.0, decloaked and got destroyed right as i was launching a bomb. Lost a ship and podded in about 2 secs flat, at least, thats how it appeared to me on on my client. Second time, after a nice long roam around low sec, i jumped into a gatecamp (8 ppl I think). Again, destroyed and podded before I could react. Seemed at my end like it took them 2-3sec (in total) to lock me, destroy my ship, and pod me. I was dead before I had even stopped warping, according to my client. The client both times appeared to desync and freeze, then unlock after I was podded... is this type of thing common? Theres nothing wrong with my internet connection, its been tested repeatedly. All necessary ports are open in both my firewall and my router. Cheers for the advice!
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.04.18 18:59:00 - [2] Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 18/04/2011 19:00:22 For the first case, why were you in point range when decloaking to bomb? The two do not work well together, range-wise. Second case, yeah probably instalocking tacklers and then artillary sitting at range, rather than any smarbombs. For some reason there is always a second or so of freeze when your ship dies, because... god knows why... apparently the clients can't just assume a pod's the next thing to be placed where your ship was and for any wreck content resolution to be a separately locked/threaded thing, no big deal if it can't be accessed immediately, it's not like a pod has a cargo hold anyway. This is why people spam warp before they see they're in their pod. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose, and in 0.0 this goes for your pod too.
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.18 19:21:00 - [3] Originally by: Daneel Trevize Edited by: Daneel Trevize on 18/04/2011 19:00:22 For the first case, why were you in point range when decloaking to bomb? The two do not work well together, range-wise. Second case, yeah probably instalocking tacklers and then artillary sitting at range, rather than any smarbombs. For some reason there is always a second or so of freeze when your ship dies, because... god knows why... apparently the clients can't just assume a pod's the next thing to be placed where your ship was and for any wreck content resolution to be a separately locked/threaded thing, no big deal if it can't be accessed immediately, it's not like a pod has a cargo hold anyway. This is why people spam warp before they see they're in their pod. Don't fly what you can't afford to lose, and in 0.0 this goes for your pod too. Thanks for the response. I wasn't in point range when I launched the bomb, he didn't need to point me as he instapopped my ship. I think I was at 35 KM range from him, I cant remember as it was a good few months ago. I had read some bomber guides and I was positioned at the right range to hit him with my bomb, then warp out immediately. From my end it appeared that I was dead before I had chance to do anything. It was decloak, launch bomb, BOOM!... LAG! while spamming warp... BOOM!, dead pod. whole thing must have taken 2 secs at my end. I was spamming the warp button before my ship was destroyed on both accounts, and fully expected my pod to warp out (as they warp instantly). What could I have done differently to prevent the loss of my ship (and pod)? I'm not bothered about the ISK loss, I was careful... flying a clone without implants and relatively cheap (less than 20mill) fits on a Purifier and a Crusader. Cheers.
Jack Tronic	Posted - 2011.04.18 19:58:00 - [4] 1. Bombers are paper thin 2. Anything will pretty much instapop a bomber including frigs 3. Don't try and bomb insta canes
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.04.18 20:40:00 - [5] Well for a bombing run, I understand you should be aligned past your target and hit decloak+bomb+warp almost instantly, so there's no use of prop mods, no starting to align or change direction, just blink and you'll miss it. The other problem is that the bomb takes, what, 10seconds to travel, so without a point/bubble they'll just warp in that time unless asleep. I say this because it doesn't sound like you were in a fleet but trying this solo, which is probably a waste of a not-the-cheapest-of-things bomb.
Kuan Yida Minmatar Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2011.04.18 21:13:00 - [6] You might try speeding up your client by running it on optimized for performance graphics settings, turning off brackets, turret and missile effects, and drone models. And keep yourself really zoomed out. Not as fun to watch but a lot easier on your client. http://kuanyida.tumblr.com/
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:04:00 - [7] Originally by: Daneel Trevize Well for a bombing run, I understand you should be aligned past your target and hit decloak+bomb+warp almost instantly, so there's no use of prop mods, no starting to align or change direction, just blink and you'll miss it. The other problem is that the bomb takes, what, 10seconds to travel, so without a point/bubble they'll just warp in that time unless asleep. I say this because it doesn't sound like you were in a fleet but trying this solo, which is probably a waste of a not-the-cheapest-of-things bomb. Confirming I was solo and also confirming that it was probably a waste of a good bomb (especially considering I died) :)
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:10:00 - [8] Originally by: Kuan Yida You might try speeding up your client by running it on optimized for performance graphics settings, turning off brackets, turret and missile effects, and drone models. And keep yourself really zoomed out. Not as fun to watch but a lot easier on your client. Thanks for the suggestion. Didn't seem like PC lag though tbh, my computer is pretty decent and quite up to date. Runs most games perfectly, graphics card is only 6 months old GTX460. It didn't 'feel' like it was my end that was the problem, it felt like network related lag... I've heard of people suggesting turning off brackets and such for large fleet fights, but in this situation there was 9 people on grid.
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker	Posted - 2011.04.18 22:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Bleb2 Originally by: Kuan Yida You might try speeding up your client by running it on optimized for performance graphics settings, turning off brackets, turret and missile effects, and drone models. And keep yourself really zoomed out. Not as fun to watch but a lot easier on your client. Thanks for the suggestion. Didn't seem like PC lag though tbh, my computer is pretty decent and quite up to date. Runs most games perfectly, graphics card is only 6 months old GTX460. It didn't 'feel' like it was my end that was the problem, it felt like network related lag... I've heard of people suggesting turning off brackets and such for large fleet fights, but in this situation there was 9 people on grid. It's probably not lag, if you are flying frigs, you will get insta popped by arty canes alot.
Feligast Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:29:00 - [10] What the previous posters have said is correct. I like to fly a double or triple seboed arty cane that can lock and pop a SB in sometimes less than a second, then lock and pod in another second or two. Can even be done at 30km range, so outside of point range. It happens, man. v0v

Merdaneth Amarr Angel Wing.	Posted - 2011.04.18 23:50:00 - [11] If you are new to PvP, you will often seem to pop very fast. Experienced PvPers will often have finished locking you while you are still looking at the overview to determine what is where. Especially if you are facing multiple hostiles just trying to catch a lone pilot. Its normal. I will get better once you get more experienced. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:18:00 - [12] Edited by: Bleb2 on 19/04/2011 00:22:00 Edited by: Bleb2 on 19/04/2011 00:21:18 Originally by: Merdaneth If you are new to PvP, you will often seem to pop very fast. Experienced PvPers will often have finished locking you while you are still looking at the overview to determine what is where. Especially if you are facing multiple hostiles just trying to catch a lone pilot. Its normal. I will get better once you get more experienced. I hear you. What happens if your locked, your ship is destroyed, and your podded, before the client catches up with whats happening server side though? Seems to me like no one can possibly be so quick as that, no matter how experienced. I checked the killmail for my Inty loss... Ship was destroyed by a smartbomb equpped Rokh, Pod was destroyed by a Huginn with 425MM AC II's... How could he lock and pod me before my pod even appeared in space? EDIT: Missed Feligast's post there... Fair enough. I guess with a setup like that cane, there isn't much margin for error when your flying frigs. I better be more careful what I engage next time.... And which low sec systems I visit :)
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.19 00:42:00 - [13] Or you could fly something more substantial than a frig.
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.19 10:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Target Painter Or you could fly something more substantial than a frig. Have tried flying cruisers and battlecruisers, but I found both to be very vulnerable. Seems quite difficult to get away from gangs in these ships. Lost a Harbi to a camp in 0.0. Was like the third system I jumped into looking for a bit of solo pvp. Died to 8 BC's, although, I was quite impressed with the length of time I lasted vs so much DPS. Been experimenting with a cheaply fit T1 Arbitrator, which I quite like but, again, it is very slow. I will probably fly this ship again though, I've had the best luck with it out of the larger hulls I have played around with. I like the ability to choose my fights which is very possible in an Inty. Up until yesterday I had been able to run from anything, and considered myself to be pretty much immune to getting caught. Lesson learned :)
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.04.19 11:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Merdaneth If you are new to PvP, you will often seem to pop very fast. Experienced PvPers will often have finished locking you while you are still looking at the overview to determine what is where. Especially if you are facing multiple hostiles just trying to catch a lone pilot. Its normal. I will get better once you get more experienced. This. I remember when I first signed up for FW it seemed like I was insta-melting if a nearby shuttle sneezed. Although I still fly paper-thin frigs and destroyers for whatever reason I survive more often. It just comes with experience and will get better. Just be sure you're not running solo all the time; having fleet-mates to help you out and teach you new tricks is always a good thing. Also, when your adrenaline is rushing (which, at least for me, happens only in solo encounters which is what you've encountered) two subjective seconds may be different than two server-client seconds. The insta-lock-n-pop arty cane theory sounds most plausible as a result, and those things will make you go ------------------- The path which can be seen is not the True Path
Feligast Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.04.19 19:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Bleb2 Ship was destroyed by a smartbomb equpped Rokh, Pod was destroyed by a Huginn with 425MM AC II's Ah, okay. You got unlucky with the Rokh, landing in his smarty radius, and the huginn was likely seboed and/or remote sensor boosted to catch and web people trying to burn back to the gate, giving him insanely fast locks even on pods. you're not alone in having lost small ships to smartbombs without even loading grid. :(
Cantrip	Posted - 2011.04.19 20:06:00 - [17] Another reason you may have been instagibbed is how the overview works: You can set your overview to show nothing but ships, and then remove fleeted / blued ships on top of that, so you'll have an empty overview until a NBSI (not blue shoot it) target pops on grid. With nothing targeted, activate your guns so you'll get the crosshair on your mouse, then put the mouse over where the first entry in your overview would be if a neutral or worse ship happened to pop on grid with you. Click the mouse as fast as you can. Combine the above with a sensor boosted to hell ship hugging a gate, with guns set up for a high volley at the rage a ship will decloak and anything that comes through gets locked and shot. With low latency and fast clicking you lock before they hit cloak (stops them from cloaking) and the guns go off before they start moving (no speed tank) or activate a hardener (no boosted resists). One of those ships can pop frigates all day. For pods: you get a very, very small window of "target is invulnerable" when the pod pops on grid after the ship is fried. If the guy in the pod isn't already mashing the warp button, he'll be toast as soon as the guns on the instalock ship cycle.
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.19 23:16:00 - [18] Very interesting. Thanks for the wealth of information. I had no idea how vulnerable small ships can be to certain setups and tactics like the ones which are described in this thread. Certainly food for thought. Thanks again for your comments.
Amarr557	Posted - 2011.04.20 08:11:00 - [19] You were smartbombed. Insta'd your little friggie and pod. Take a look at the killmail...
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.20 09:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Amarr557 You were smartbombed. Insta'd your little friggie and pod. Take a look at the killmail... You didn't read the whole thread did you mate? ;) your half right, by the way.

Tuvar Hiede Caldari Element 115.	Posted - 2011.04.20 17:41:00 - [21] If you feel latency is an issue and not sure you can open your command window by typing cmd in your run field and then typing ping www.eveonline.com or tracert www.eveonline.com and both will give you a good idea as to your quality of signal.
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.20 18:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Tuvar Hiede If you feel latency is an issue and not sure you can open your command window by typing cmd in your run field and then typing ping www.eveonline.com or tracert www.eveonline.com and both will give you a good idea as to your quality of signal. Cheers for the info Tuvar. I had tested my connection using speedtest on the web. Using the ping command in the CLI, I get 24ms max, with an average of 23ms. Thats pretty good so its unlikely to have been a problem on my end.
Bad Messenger draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.04.21 08:05:00 - [23] Usually if you have lag you are dead before you even know that, so maybe it was not lag in this case. Most gangs has anti bomber ships with them, which can practically instantly pop small frigs like yours. Your loss mails usually provide important info as ship type and weapon type so those would tell much about your losses, but because you are not posting with your main we can not help much on analyzing those mails for you.
Sutskop PILSGESCHWADER Monkey Circus	Posted - 2011.04.21 08:38:00 - [24] Originally by: Bleb2 I checked the killmail for my Inty loss... Ship was destroyed by a smartbomb equpped Rokh, Pod was destroyed by a Huginn with 425MM AC II's... How could he lock and pod me before my pod even appeared in space? When your ship dies your client lags. That's the case for everyone. Your pod appeared for him, just not for you. That's why you spam warp before dying to get your pod into warp instantly. If you miss this you lose at least 2-3 seconds with your pod vulnerable. Welcome to station.
Anastanaslavaniaz	Posted - 2011.04.21 08:39:00 - [25] Keep trying. Don't give up. We need new PvPers. They provide killmails to real players.
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.21 09:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Sutskop Originally by: Bleb2 I checked the killmail for my Inty loss... Ship was destroyed by a smartbomb equpped Rokh, Pod was destroyed by a Huginn with 425MM AC II's... How could he lock and pod me before my pod even appeared in space? When your ship dies your client lags. That's the case for everyone. Your pod appeared for him, just not for you. That's why you spam warp before dying to get your pod into warp instantly. If you miss this you lose at least 2-3 seconds with your pod vulnerable. Welcome to station. Hello. If you read the third post in this thread, you will see that I was spamming warp before my pod appeared in space. It is likely that my ship was already destroyed before the grid loaded on my client, as is suggested by other posters in this thread.
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.21 09:41:00 - [27] Originally by: Anastanaslavaniaz Keep trying. Don't give up. We need new PvPers. They provide killmails to real players. Because real players (which presumably includes yourself) sprung from the womb with keyboard and mouse in hand, full knowledge of game mechanics, and all necessary skills trained to V.
Bleb2	Posted - 2011.04.21 10:15:00 - [28] Originally by: Bad Messenger because you are not posting with your main we can not help much on analyzing those mails for you. My main is "TeatimeTed" http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=TeatimeTed#losses The Inty loss in question doesn't appear to be on Battleclinic, perhaps they failed to post it. My ingame lossmail reads that my ship died to a 'Large Notos I Explosive Charge' fit to a Rokh.
Demolishar	Posted - 2011.04.21 15:12:00 - [29] Oh wow check out those amazing T1 fits. Come back when you have SP and isk.
Menardii	Posted - 2011.04.21 15:53:00 - [30] Don't be discouraged. PVP can be a hard scene to break into. Be prepared to lose ships, often quickly and without chances to react. There are, however, ways to counter some of the difficulties of starting in PVP. First thing that comes to mind it to find a corp. I've found that for newer players, a smaller corp is often better as you will get more attention from the other members, as well as senior leadership. Your corpmates will help teach you pvp, and should at the least go and fight with you. As to the frigates, it happens. Frigates (especially Stealth Bombers) have VERY thin skin. They will easily get popped by larger ships, including BS with Smartbombs. Destroyers are almost as bad. If you're tired of this, you may want to try to get into a nice cruiser hull, like a Vexor, Thorax, Arbitrator, or Rupture/Stabber. These will be more expensive, but will increase your survivability. Course, the flip side, is you won't have that handy cov-ops cloak, unless you go cov-ops cruiser. Hope the info helps, feel free to message me in game if you find you have more questions, and I'll try to help. -Menardii



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