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Navy Scorpion - rebalancing

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Sunviking	Posted - 2011.04.23 08:52:00 - [1] Hi, I feel the current description of the Navy Scorpion as an 'offensive monster' is not exactly accurate. (Check out the ship's description) With 6 cruise missile launchers it has no better DPS than a standard Raven, and in fact the Raven can out DPS it due to 2 extra highslots fittable with Railguns and 1 extra lowslot. So, who agrees with me in thinking this ship should have its Damage output increased in some way? 2 ways I can immediately think of doing this, are by: 1. Increasing RoF bonus from 5% to 7.5% per Caldari Battleship skill level, or; 2. Giving an Explosion Velocity bonus of 5% per Caldari Battleship skill level, similar to the Nighthawk Both these suggestions would not overpower this ship as it would still do less DPS than a Navy Raven. Navy Scorpion is a ship with such good potential, however it is lacking somewhat in its current balancing/attributes. Oh, and CCP should keep the 5% shield resist bonus too.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.23 08:54:00 - [2] 3/10 ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2011.04.23 10:40:00 - [3] Quote: (Check out the ship's description) Ship descriptions are accurate since... when? Navy scorp is fine, cry more. _________________________________ ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS...
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.23 10:53:00 - [4] Ehh. It's a drake. =p
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.23 10:58:00 - [5] --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
NoNah	Posted - 2011.04.23 23:41:00 - [6] Edited by: NoNah on 23/04/2011 23:43:00 I want to recall the raven being one of the - if not the - highest damage battleship there partly so ignoring range just considering applied dps over time, very much so if range is of a concern. oh, and comparing the scorp to the navy issue, I'd once again agree it's a damage monster. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 323751
Fozzy Dorsai	Posted - 2011.04.24 04:07:00 - [7] I tend to treat my Scorp NI like a Drake with Cruises. Right now I'm running through AE with most of my defensive mods turned off and ballistics filling the lows because the tank is just insanely huge. So while I agree it is no offensive monster, it doesn't need any more help (hey, I'll take it, but...). It's hard to say that a ship that doesn't have to warp out of anything, even if you trip an extra trigger by accident, doesn't need much else going for it. But if you want to dream, how about combining the Scorp and the Rattler so that you can keep the 6 launchers, have a passive tank that can't be broke, and can field heavy/sentries?
Headerman Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:14:00 - [8] Well the bonuses for the SNI are very different to the scorp... why are there no such differences between all other Tier 1 BSs and their faction counterparts? That said, the SNI is a bit like a missile Rokh
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:30:00 - [9] Originally by: Headerman Well the bonuses for the SNI are very different to the scorp... why are there no such differences between all other Tier 1 BSs and their faction counterparts? Largely because the Scorp is rather different from all other tier 1 BSes in that it has a very distinct role as an ECM ship. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Headerman Minmatar Metanoia. Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.04.24 06:36:00 - [10] True that. I am glad the Phoon and Fleet Phoon retain their racial highlights: dealing incredibly high damage and moving very quickly.

Noz Khan	Posted - 2011.04.24 09:35:00 - [11] I love the SNI as it is. It is, as already stated, a Drake on steroids. 8 Midslots on a BS is great. You can run a very good tank, speed mods, target painter, 3 BCS and still maintain cap stabilty. In fact, it is possible to have the SNI run better than a standard Raven with better DPS and Tank even by a relatively low SP pilot. Each BS fills a particular niche, the SNI fills a very nice niche for the missile boats as it has Tank over Spank, while the CNR is more Spank over Tank. ALL the Navy Faction BS (not the pirate) have 2 bonus's, the SNI RoF is exactly the same as the CNR. It's the amount of Midslots that allow the SNI to become Quote: 'offensive monster' by allowing the added bonus's of speed and TP without sacrificing to much of it's tanking ability. If you want to use Torps, then go with the CNR who's bonus's (10% bonus to missile velocity which means greater range for Torps) is better suited. Let Sleeping Dogs Lie.
Theodoric Darkwind Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.24 17:45:00 - [12] SNI is basically the damage output of a normal Raven, but the tank of a rattlesnake, so basically decent but not great damage and a godly passive tank, so its more like a BS sized drake.
Goose99	Posted - 2011.04.24 18:57:00 - [13] Think of it this way, a SNI with 4 bcs puts out the same dps as a CNR with 3 bcs, while having far better tank and cap stability. 4 bcs CNR means significant sacrifice to tank and cap, unless you deadspace fit it. CNR can reach higher in term of gank, but at the same set point, SNI outperforms it. Seems balanced as is.
Kneebone K-H Light Industries	Posted - 2011.04.24 19:10:00 - [14] I use my Scorp NI as a torp spewing monster for Angels missions. Extra mids = TP's It could just be that the purpose of your life is to server as a warning to others.
Goose99	Posted - 2011.04.24 19:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Kneebone I use my Scorp NI as a torp spewing monster for Angels missions. Extra mids = TP's It lacks that missile velocity bonus, torp range will be poor.
Sunviking	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Goose99 Think of it this way, a SNI with 4 bcs puts out the same dps as a CNR with 3 bcs, while having far better tank and cap stability. 4 bcs CNR means significant sacrifice to tank and cap, unless you deadspace fit it. CNR can reach higher in term of gank, but at the same set point, SNI outperforms it. Seems balanced as is. At last, someone who thinks that the SNI is potentially a better mission-runner than the Navy Raven! I salute you and your intelligence... This just goes to show it is not all about DPS. All-too-often I have seen Navy Ravens sitting by stargates near mission-hubs, shield-boosting because they have had to warp out of their lvl 4 missions due to cap depleting and shield tank failing. Rock on SNI! This is why I always use the SNI for mission-running, it is quite simply more efficient, better value, and a better all-round ship. Navy Raven has inferior CPU, meaning you are forced to faction-fit purely to get a good fit.
Sunviking	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Noz Khan I love the SNI as it is. It is, as already stated, a Drake on steroids. 8 Midslots on a BS is great. You can run a very good tank, speed mods, target painter, 3 BCS and still maintain cap stabilty. In fact, it is possible to have the SNI run better than a standard Raven with better DPS and Tank even by a relatively low SP pilot. Each BS fills a particular niche, the SNI fills a very nice niche for the missile boats as it has Tank over Spank, while the CNR is more Spank over Tank. ALL the Navy Faction BS (not the pirate) have 2 bonus's, the SNI RoF is exactly the same as the CNR. It's the amount of Midslots that allow the SNI to become Quote: 'offensive monster' by allowing the added bonus's of speed and TP without sacrificing to much of it's tanking ability. If you want to use Torps, then go with the CNR who's bonus's (10% bonus to missile velocity which means greater range for Torps) is better suited. Let Sleeping Dogs Lie. Good comment.
Pantload Gallente Handsome Millionaire Playboys Warped Aggression	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:35:00 - [18] Originally by: Sunviking Originally by: Goose99 Think of it this way, a SNI with 4 bcs puts out the same dps as a CNR with 3 bcs, while having far better tank and cap stability. 4 bcs CNR means significant sacrifice to tank and cap, unless you deadspace fit it. CNR can reach higher in term of gank, but at the same set point, SNI outperforms it. Seems balanced as is. At last, someone who thinks that the SNI is potentially a better mission-runner than the Navy Raven! I salute you and your intelligence... This just goes to show it is not all about DPS. All-too-often I have seen Navy Ravens sitting by stargates near mission-hubs, shield-boosting because they have had to warp out of their lvl 4 missions due to cap depleting and shield tank failing. Rock on SNI! This is why I always use the SNI for mission-running, it is quite simply more efficient, better value, and a better all-round ship. Navy Raven has inferior CPU, meaning you are forced to faction-fit purely to get a good fit. I'm not sure how you guys have convinced yourself about this. Without a doubt, the CNR will complete missions more quickly due to killing more quickly due to putting out more DPS. If a person is having to warp their CNR out of a mission to rep themselves, they are making mistakes that are causing this. A single XL Shield boost + 3x hardeners + cap booster is more than enough tank to complete all L4 missions. No additional tank or cap modules are required. Now...since the Navy Scorp has more tank and less gank, how is it completing missions more quickly than the CNR? Answer: It's not. Are there better/faster mission running ships than a cruise-fitted CNR? Yes. Are any of them a Navy Scorp? No. Thanks for your time. -PL TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Sunviking	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:38:00 - [19] Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Sunviking Originally by: Goose99 Think of it this way, a SNI with 4 bcs puts out the same dps as a CNR with 3 bcs, while having far better tank and cap stability. 4 bcs CNR means significant sacrifice to tank and cap, unless you deadspace fit it. CNR can reach higher in term of gank, but at the same set point, SNI outperforms it. Seems balanced as is. At last, someone who thinks that the SNI is potentially a better mission-runner than the Navy Raven! I salute you and your intelligence... This just goes to show it is not all about DPS. All-too-often I have seen Navy Ravens sitting by stargates near mission-hubs, shield-boosting because they have had to warp out of their lvl 4 missions due to cap depleting and shield tank failing. Rock on SNI! This is why I always use the SNI for mission-running, it is quite simply more efficient, better value, and a better all-round ship. Navy Raven has inferior CPU, meaning you are forced to faction-fit purely to get a good fit. I'm not sure how you guys have convinced yourself about this. Without a doubt, the CNR will complete missions more quickly due to killing more quickly due to putting out more DPS. If a person is having to warp their CNR out of a mission to rep themselves, they are making mistakes that are causing this. A single XL Shield boost + 3x hardeners + cap booster is more than enough tank to complete all L4 missions. No additional tank or cap modules are required. Now...since the Navy Scorp has more tank and less gank, how is it completing missions more quickly than the CNR? Answer: It's not. Are there better/faster mission running ships than a cruise-fitted CNR? Yes. Are any of them a Navy Scorp? No. Thanks for your time. -PL Pantload, please post your fit to prove this, then I will run it through EFT to check. Thanks...
Pantload Gallente Handsome Millionaire Playboys Warped Aggression	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Sunviking Pantload, please post your fit to prove this, then I will run it through EFT to check. Thanks... You need me to post a CNR fit for you to realize the CNR out-damages the Navy Scorp? No problem. I can do that. If you are going to compare the two...you want reasonably priced fits? Mildly pimped fits? Some faction where reasonable but no deadspace? TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here

Sunviking	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:44:00 - [21] Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:44:32 Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:44:01 Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Sunviking Pantload, please post your fit to prove this, then I will run it through EFT to check. Thanks... You need me to post a CNR fit for you to realize the CNR out-damages the Navy Scorp? No problem. I can do that. If you are going to compare the two...you want reasonably priced fits? Mildly pimped fits? Some faction where reasonable but no deadspace? Give me a non-faction, non-pimped fit please. And we are not talking about DPS, we are talking about all-round mission-effectiveness and completion times.
Pantload Gallente Handsome Millionaire Playboys Warped Aggression	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Sunviking Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:44:32 Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:44:01 Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Sunviking Pantload, please post your fit to prove this, then I will run it through EFT to check. Thanks... You need me to post a CNR fit for you to realize the CNR out-damages the Navy Scorp? No problem. I can do that. If you are going to compare the two...you want reasonably priced fits? Mildly pimped fits? Some faction where reasonable but no deadspace? Give me a non-faction, non-pimped fit please. And we are not talking about DPS, we are talking about all-round mission-effectiveness and completion times. Mission completion times are directly related to Max raw DPS and applied DPS or time-to-kill. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Sunviking	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:54:40 Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:51:14 Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Sunviking Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:44:32 Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:44:01 Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Sunviking Pantload, please post your fit to prove this, then I will run it through EFT to check. Thanks... You need me to post a CNR fit for you to realize the CNR out-damages the Navy Scorp? No problem. I can do that. If you are going to compare the two...you want reasonably priced fits? Mildly pimped fits? Some faction where reasonable but no deadspace? Give me a non-faction, non-pimped fit please. And we are not talking about DPS, we are talking about all-round mission-effectiveness and completion times. Mission completion times are directly related to Max raw DPS and applied DPS or time-to-kill. Please post your Tech2 Navy Raven fit so I can compare to SNI.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:53:00 - [24] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/04/2011 17:54:28 Originally by: Sunviking Pantload, please post your fit to prove this, then I will run it through EFT to check. Thanks... TBH the only way the SNI is going to outperform the CNR is to try to play on omnitanking and the :effort: of dealing with cap boosters. It has an equivalent drone bay, similar bonuses, and 1 less launcher. How could it not be worse at missioning? -Liang Ed: Quote: Please post your Tech2/Tech1'named' Navy Raven fit so I can compare to SNI. LOL? You're asking for **ing named on faction battleships? -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Sunviking	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:56:00 - [25] Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:56:02 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 25/04/2011 17:54:28 Originally by: Sunviking Pantload, please post your fit to prove this, then I will run it through EFT to check. Thanks... TBH the only way the SNI is going to outperform the CNR is to try to play on omnitanking and the :effort: of dealing with cap boosters. It has an equivalent drone bay, similar bonuses, and 1 less launcher. How could it not be worse at missioning? -Liang Ed: Quote: Please post your Tech2/Tech1'named' Navy Raven fit so I can compare to SNI. LOL? You're asking for **ing named ** on faction battleships? I only mentioned 'named' because of PWNAGE, I have removed it to avoid confusion.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.25 17:56:00 - [26] Originally by: Sunviking I only mentionedg 'named' because of PWNAGE, I have removed it to avoid confusion. And then we get back to the point that you're discounting cheap faction BCUs... why? -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Pantload Gallente Handsome Millionaire Playboys Warped Aggression	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:08:00 - [27] Edited by: Pantload on 25/04/2011 18:16:43 Proposed CNR fit. I would not fly this exactly as is, but here goes. Could not do all T1/T2/named. Faction pieces at least for the hardeners is necessary to fit the CPU. I would strongly recommend upgrading to faction BCU and a faction shield boost ( since the T2 will blow the CPU budget ) [Raven Navy Issue, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Signal Amplifier II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Hammerhead II x5 With my guy's skills + implants and factoring read-load time into DPS and using missiles + drones, this has a peak of 885 DPS. Switching to faction BCUs will bump that about 50 more DPS. This setup even with named T1 shield boost will tank over 400 DPS vs its worst thing which is Sanshas/Bloods. That's plenty considering its gank potential. Also Navy Raven has a bigger drone bay and with the Sig Amp II fitted it has longer targeting range, faster targeting speed and 9 targets lockable instead of 7. I'll post a comparable Scorp fit shortly. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
Pantload Gallente Handsome Millionaire Playboys Warped Aggression	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:24:00 - [28] Edited by: Pantload on 25/04/2011 18:25:25 Crikey these things have a **load of midslots. Wasn't sure what to do with extras so 2nd TP ( sometimes useful against certain ships or to avoid waiting on cycle time of first one ) + AB was fitted. Could fit a sebo in one of those "spare" midslots to extend your targeting and let your missiles hit farther. Sebo won't add lockable targets like a Sig Amp will. [Scorpion Navy Issue, New Setup 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I Photon Scattering Field II Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron 100MN Afterburner II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Paradise Fury Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Hammerhead II x5 Still not enough CPU on this thing to get away from best named T1 shield boost unless you fit cheap faction like CN. This thing does about 780 DPS using same character as the CNR posted above.. That's missiles + drones and factors for reloading time. This has more tank. Approximately 550 DPS tankable vs Sansha/Bloods. This will not complete missions faster. If you would have had to warp out while tanking 400 DPS, you're probably going to have to at 550 DPS tankable. Especially since this is putting out at least 100 less DPS compared to its Raven couterpart. Watching triggers and killing groups in proper order is key for aggro management. Less DPS, less drones, slightly better tank. Your choice in the end. I still know for a fact that the CNR will be finishing missions more quickly. TUG: The Underpants Gnomes.** Buy Corps here
stoicfaux Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.25 18:56:00 - [29] The SNI can mount three TPs to the CNR's one TP. I'm not sure that's enough to compensate for the CNR having 9.33 effective launchers versus the SNI's 8 effective launchers. Plus the SNI's missiles are slower which can make volley counting more difficult. (Miscount and waste a volley or two which wastes time which lowers your effective DPS.) Plus the CNR can mount three sentries in addition to five lights for additional firepower. I don't think an SNI with a couple of drone tracking links and two sentries is going to outperform the CNR's three sentries. So unless someone can show that two more TPs or a couple of drone tracking links increases performance significantly, then I'm going to say CNR > SNI for level 4s. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
durablesilver	Posted - 2011.04.25 21:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Sunviking Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:44:32 Edited by: Sunviking on 25/04/2011 17:44:01 Originally by: Pantload Originally by: Sunviking Pantload, please post your fit to prove this, then I will run it through EFT to check. Thanks... You need me to post a CNR fit for you to realize the CNR out-damages the Navy Scorp? No problem. I can do that. If you are going to compare the two...you want reasonably priced fits? Mildly pimped fits? Some faction where reasonable but no deadspace? Give me a non-faction, non-pimped fit please. And we are not talking about DPS, we are talking about all-round mission-effectiveness and completion times. Mission completion times are directly related to Max raw DPS and applied DPS or time-to-kill. but if you get blown up when doing your mission, because of an unforeseen issue, maybe Rl maybe an accidental spawn trigger hit, you're not doing any damage, and it's kind of hard to complete a mission in a pod



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