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Bud Johnson
Autistic Sharks
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Posted - 2011.04.24 20:07:00 -
[31]
Welcome to eve online. People come and go but the whines always stay the same.
It WAS lack of organization. You shouldn't have engaged them. They beat you. Deal with it.
Also calling those fleets "similar" is p funny.
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Victor Reznik
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Posted - 2011.04.24 20:41:00 -
[32]
This is why I love Eve, the biggest guns dont win fights. Planning and preperation win fights. And I agree with whoever said that a falcon and BB didnt perma jam all those ships.
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Hawk Alugi
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Posted - 2011.04.24 22:36:00 -
[33]
Point of view by the Falcon pilot himself : )
We got word through intell that a nuet bc gang with 2 logi ships were in Old Man Star. But at the time the fleet was pre-occupied pies in Ladistier (which I got there late for, just joined the fleet). Since I missed that fight I headed to OMS to get eyes on the neutral fleet. As I jumped through to OMS from Lad, the nuet gang landed at zero on Lad. I held cloak while I got their fleet comp. Then warp to a gate over-look position to see what they would do. Mean while the fleet in Lad was split up, some were getting repair, so were looting/savaging etc. See nearly 70% of nuet fleet was Minnie, I warp to station to put in a combat load of primary Minnie jammers. After about 10mins or so, our fleet in Lad was ready to go.
We gathered up in top belt OMS. And then had a discussion on how many of us were willing to go GCC seeing that they were nuets and not pirates. Some in our gang decided not to since they were getting close to -5. It was at that time, the nuet gang warped to US at top belt at a 100k and started to align to our fleet. After looking at each other for a 3-4 mins wondering who would shoot first. We then got a cloaky into position close to their Logi, which they were holding back a bit. Once we warped close to the logis, the call was made to engage and that was it for them.
So as you can see, to say we had more then enough time to prepare for them would be a understatement. And they did see that I was in a falcon when I un-cloak and warped to a tactical off Lad gate in OMS. Ship scanner would have shown them the Blackbird at top belt. And they still chose to warp to us.
On a personal note, IĈve been playing for over 5 years and I put the time and effort into flying a Falcon (which is basically the only Caldari ship I fly) :
Caldari cruiser 5
Recon 5
Electronic warfare 5
Frequency Mod. 5
Long Distance Jamming 5
Signal Dispersion 5
and for you to basically imply IĈm half-A** falcon pilot is a bit insulting.
Hawk Alugi CEO, Hyper-Nova
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Renarla
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Posted - 2011.04.24 22:42:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Renarla on 24/04/2011 22:46:14
Okay, so maybe I was incorrect about your guys' preparation - you got me there.
I also did not mean to imply that you specifically were a "half-assed Falcon pilot" - what I did mean to imply was that someone with half of your experience in flying a Falcon could have easily performed just as well in that scenario.
But, am I seriously the only one who believes that a single ship having the ability to render up to 7 other ships completely and utterly useless the instant a fight starts while completely safe is completely broken?
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Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.24 23:00:00 -
[35]
 Originally by: Renarla
am I seriously the only one who believes that a single ship having the ability to render up to 7 other ships completely and utterly useless the instant a fight starts while completely safe is completely broken?
Well, there are others that share your incorrect opinion. First, there is no ship in EvE that can render 7 ships completely and utterly useless. At most, for a 100km jamming range, you can put 5 jammers on a Blackbird (it has to have a sensor booster to target beyond 93km, and which properly fit and inside optimal, has an average 60% jam chance per jammer agains Minnie BCs) and 7 on a Falcon, which has half the optimal of a Blackbird, and at 100km, has about the same (or even less) chance to jam a Minnie BC. These numbers are verifiable in EFT, not just something I pulled out of my butt. So, IF the jamming ship got lucky and got a jam with all his jammers, then yes, he could theoretically jam 7 ships for 30 seconds. But he'll probably at least have a MWD, so -1 jammer per ship, which gives the BB 4 jammers, and the Falcon 6. Then, if you consider the 60% jam chance, you get, on average, the ability to keep maybe 2-3 ships jammed continuously by the Blackbird, and 4 by the Falcon.
The myth of "perma-jamming" at 100km, from what I can deduce based on ship sensor strength and jam strengths, only exists if you are flying T1 or Faction Minnie Frigates, or if you double up jammers, which effectively halves the number of ships that can be jammed.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.04.24 23:15:00 -
[36]
Maybe don't ban ECM in your little personal war, so your pilots can get experience in dealing with ECM ships?
And kick the scimi without ECCM in the nether regions. Seriously, what is the deal with that 
...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Trader20
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Posted - 2011.04.25 00:01:00 -
[37]
Fact: ECM Combats Lag
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.04.25 01:48:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Hawk Alugi
Point of view by the Falcon pilot himself : )
We got word through intell that a nuet bc gang with 2 logi ships were in Old Man Star. But at the time the fleet was pre-occupied pies in Ladistier (which I got there late for, just joined the fleet). Since I missed that fight I headed to OMS to get eyes on the neutral fleet. As I jumped through to OMS from Lad, the nuet gang landed at zero on Lad. I held cloak while I got their fleet comp. Then warp to a gate over-look position to see what they would do. Mean while the fleet in Lad was split up, some were getting repair, so were looting/savaging etc. See nearly 70% of nuet fleet was Minnie, I warp to station to put in a combat load of primary Minnie jammers. After about 10mins or so, our fleet in Lad was ready to go.
We gathered up in top belt OMS. And then had a discussion on how many of us were willing to go GCC seeing that they were nuets and not pirates. Some in our gang decided not to since they were getting close to -5. It was at that time, the nuet gang warped to US at top belt at a 100k and started to align to our fleet. After looking at each other for a 3-4 mins wondering who would shoot first. We then got a cloaky into position close to their Logi, which they were holding back a bit. Once we warped close to the logis, the call was made to engage and that was it for them.
So as you can see, to say we had more then enough time to prepare for them would be a understatement. And they did see that I was in a falcon when I un-cloak and warped to a tactical off Lad gate in OMS. Ship scanner would have shown them the Blackbird at top belt. And they still chose to warp to us.
On a personal note, IĈve been playing for over 5 years and I put the time and effort into flying a Falcon (which is basically the only Caldari ship I fly) :
Caldari cruiser 5
Recon 5
Electronic warfare 5
Frequency Mod. 5
Long Distance Jamming 5
Signal Dispersion 5
and for you to basically imply IĈm half-A** falcon pilot is a bit insulting.
Hawk Alugi CEO, Hyper-Nova
 Nice.
--
Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
On Twitter
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Zan Shiro
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Posted - 2011.04.25 03:50:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Renarla
But, am I seriously the only one who believes that a single ship having the ability to render up to 7 other ships completely and utterly useless the instant a fight starts while completely safe is completely broken?
7 ships at a time would be scorpion. Scorpions are fun ships....only dictors have a shorter life expectancy most times they fly (I have seen 1 or 2 make it home before...rare exceptions these were though). be 6 jams for falcon...needs a prop mod at least.
But...from above account, your fleet gave him time to refit. Never give a falcon time to do that. Falcon will either run omni's which are weaker (better chance to burn through) or he could have a cocktail of 4 races and 2 omni's. I would run this anyway...covers all bases and I got 2 omnis as a catch all so if the prey of the day is 3 say stabbers....I got 1 ladar for uber jam and omni's for his friends. FC should have engaged sooner...might have faired better against the dudes more generic falcon fit.
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Marl Boro
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Posted - 2011.04.25 03:53:00 -
[40]
As an inspiring ECM pilot I must thank Renarla for this thread. Your complaining has allowed me to study further the proper way to use blackbird/falcon/rook and what to expect as counters to it. I started eve about 3-4 years ago and instantly loved the concept of blackbird ECM. I have even been on a few newbish roaming parties just to try it out - I loved it. Stopped playing when I reached about 7 million SP because I couldn't convince any of my friends of how amazing eve pvp was. The complexity and the realism are fantastic.
Although I am not a seasoned veteran I have noticed a trend in the threads on ECM. Conceptually speaking it seems most people who complain about the power of ECM don't really understand what makes pvp in eve amazing - the depth. An unbalanced group of ships gets their crap packed in by a more balanced or even a counter fleet and then complains about it. Every single thread is the same thing. Do you expect homogenization and every ship to be exactly the same? Do you realize how boring that would make the game. Ships have strengths and weaknesses and ECM is primarily a support role. Logistics are another support role. If you were a fleet running around with no logistic support and were beat by another fleet who chose to bring logistic support would you complain about that? Bringing ECM a similar concept - you have to prepare for everything. Having to prepare for each circumstance brings that extra level of depth in pvp that nearly every game out at the moment does not have.
What I have not heard yet is why you stayed and died. If there are ECM ships locking you down and you know it - get the hell out of there. I mean why sit there and let them rock your world while you cannot counter attack - back off, regroup, prepare for the ecm or go home crying. This may be an area where my inexperience shows for there could be something preventing you from doing that... if not - you deserved to lose each of those ships.
Please keep acting like ECM is the most power aspect of eve so I can keep learning what to do to **** people like you off more when more educated folks post real advice on what you should do and how ECM pilots fly.
Thanks!
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Boyd Edison
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Posted - 2011.04.25 04:16:00 -
[41]
Fact is, 90% of the "srs pvp" player-base is now flying minmatar on most occasions. This makes jamming a cake-walk. It's fairly easy to assume packing a bunch of racials for matar will get you an advantage over the standard rainbow + multi.
The solution is pretty damned simple: stop unilaterally flying fotm and find ways to work diversity into your gangs. Got a bunch of hurricanes and need logi? Use basilisks instead of scimitars. How about throwing in a few shield-gank harbs/brutix/drake? Or maybe grab some of your own ewar?
This isn't a showcase of ecm imbalance, it's a showcase for the sad sub-cap ship balance that lets cane pilots expect a license for kills.
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Ramon Sohei
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Posted - 2011.04.25 05:06:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Ramon Sohei on 25/04/2011 05:10:31
People know Minmatar ships have nice DPS and forget their weakness is sensors.
Nothing to see here.
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Tara Maroo
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Posted - 2011.04.25 05:10:00 -
[43]
I was in on that fight, chatgris was our fc, shouldve realized you were making a mistake :)
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Lee Whelan
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Posted - 2011.04.25 05:17:00 -
[44]
Who said it was a good idea to spam a bunch of AC canes anyway?
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.25 05:35:00 -
[45]
Edited by: chatgris on 25/04/2011 05:37:46
Thought I'd give my perspective on this as the FC of the gang you fought.
First off - let me say that I don't like ECM and was not aware I had a falcon pilot with me to begin with. I lead very fluid fleets, people join and leave all the time. It's just the way we operate.
Quote:
They would sit ~100km from us, and when we tried to burn for them they would simply warp off - now we are out of range of the rest of their gang, and they warp back in 100km from us again, and we're sitting ducks.
You lost not because we had ecm, but because you lacked damage projection (and you didn't put eccm on your scimitars - that's standard on any logi). You had to choose between burning out of range of us to shoot the falcon, or ignoring us. That was your problem. Being against the caldari militia, I'd say we run into the most falcon pilots of any lowsec gang on a regular basis, and we often fight them without logistics or ecm of our own.
Oh, and that ishkur you killed... He shouldn't have been there, I told him he was in the wrong ship for the fight, but he's unfortunately pure gallente specc'd and didn't have anything to fight with, so he just came to ***** on mails.
To answer other people about "drakes at 50" - we stayed in point range of our primaries the whole time. As you can see on the battle report, there were no lach's, we had no logis. I think we could have handily beat them without any ecm of our own given their ship fittings.
IMO, close range dps in a fleet is obsolete. It's why gallente ships are so bad for pvp right now.
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Gun Hog
Caldari
APEX ARDENT COALITION
C0NVICTED
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Posted - 2011.04.25 05:41:00 -
[46]
Your enemy's ECM was fit specifically against your mostly Minmatar fleet. They had plenty of intel on you. They were prepared for you. What happened was exactly what *should* have happened.
ECM has been through enough nerfs. The mechanic is fine, your tactics are not.
_______________________________________________
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Cephelange du'Krevviq
Caldari
Seventh Exploration and Engagement Command
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Posted - 2011.04.25 06:02:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Gun Hog
Your enemy's ECM was fit specifically against your mostly Minmatar fleet. They had plenty of intel on you. They were prepared for you. What happened was exactly what *should* have happened.
ECM has been through enough nerfs. The mechanic is fine, your tactics are not.
Intel is over 50% of the battle.
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Von Kroll
Caldari
Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.04.25 06:37:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Cephelange du'Krevviq
Intel is over 50% of the battle.
QFT, especially if you're going into Gallente FW space. They have a more cohesive intelligence gathering capability than any entity I've ever fought against in null-sec. If you roll through their playground, you better have your **** together, because if you don't, they'll hand it to you...quickly.
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Soldarius
Caldari
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.04.25 06:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Hawk Alugi
Point of view by the Falcon pilot himself : )
We got word through intell that a nuet bc gang with 2 logi ships were in Old Man Star. But at the time the fleet was pre-occupied pies in Ladistier (which I got there late for, just joined the fleet). Since I missed that fight I headed to OMS to get eyes on the neutral fleet. As I jumped through to OMS from Lad, the nuet gang landed at zero on Lad. I held cloak while I got their fleet comp. Then warp to a gate over-look position to see what they would do. Mean while the fleet in Lad was split up, some were getting repair, so were looting/savaging etc. See nearly 70% of nuet fleet was Minnie, I warp to station to put in a combat load of primary Minnie jammers. After about 10mins or so, our fleet in Lad was ready to go.
We gathered up in top belt OMS. And then had a discussion on how many of us were willing to go GCC seeing that they were nuets and not pirates. Some in our gang decided not to since they were getting close to -5. It was at that time, the nuet gang warped to US at top belt at a 100k and started to align to our fleet. After looking at each other for a 3-4 mins wondering who would shoot first. We then got a cloaky into position close to their Logi, which they were holding back a bit. Once we warped close to the logis, the call was made to engage and that was it for them.
So as you can see, to say we had more then enough time to prepare for them would be a understatement. And they did see that I was in a falcon when I un-cloak and warped to a tactical off Lad gate in OMS. Ship scanner would have shown them the Blackbird at top belt. And they still chose to warp to us.
On a personal note, IĈve been playing for over 5 years and I put the time and effort into flying a Falcon (which is basically the only Caldari ship I fly) :
Caldari cruiser 5
Recon 5
Electronic warfare 5
Frequency Mod. 5
Long Distance Jamming 5
Signal Dispersion 5
and for you to basically imply IĈm half-A** falcon pilot is a bit insulting.
Hawk Alugi CEO, Hyper-Nova
Pro 1337 ECM pilot. No, really.
Originally by: CCP Shadow
...I cannot guarantee (my) sobriety or decency.
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Boyd Edison
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Posted - 2011.04.25 07:07:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Soldarius
Pro 1337 ECM pilot. No, really.
Sarcasticly calling someone else pro with RAGE tag showing.
:irony overload:
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.25 07:32:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Renarla
But, am I seriously the only one who believes that a single ship having the ability to render up to 7 other ships completely and utterly useless the instant a fight starts while completely safe is completely broken?
Yeah, pretty much. Bring a Falcon. Stop bringing Minmatar RP logis.
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Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.04.25 09:02:00 -
[52]
So you got owned, because you failed to scout and plan ahead. But instead of learning from it and adapting, you decided to run to the forums spouting made up nonsense and whine about it.
Go you.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax
Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.04.25 09:16:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 25/04/2011 09:16:45
Quote:
Quote:
let me give you a good counter that either pulls ECM out of the field, or totally ****s it up:
cerberus.
Missile travel time pretty much negates that, as the missiles get close the ECM ship can just warp out and warp back in 
I must have missed the patch which made ECM boats able to lock targets and jam them from off grid. 
The objective of shooting at an ECM boat is to remove it from the field. Blowing it up achieves this. But so does forcing it to warp out.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.25 14:12:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mag's
So you got owned, because you failed to scout and plan ahead. But instead of learning from it and adapting, you decided to run to the forums spouting made up nonsense and whine about it.
Go you.
I think they're learning.
Rule 1. Have a plan to push ECM off field. If no plan, then don't engage.
Rule 2. Have a plan to negate logis. If no plan, then don't engage. etc...
Rule 3. Study your opponent's fits after a loss and figure out what advantages they had. (ECM was just one of many.)
Win or lose, is was a fun fight (more fun for my side 'cause we won  ). I hope you guys adapt and come back for some more pew. You'll get better if you do.
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Princess Nexxala
Gallente
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.25 15:36:00 -
[55]
Originally by: chatgris
Edited by: chatgris on 25/04/2011 05:37:46
Thought I'd give my perspective on this as the FC of the gang you fought.
First off - let me say that I don't like ECM and was not aware I had a falcon pilot with me to begin with. I lead very fluid fleets, people join and leave all the time. It's just the way we operate.
You lost not because we had ecm, but because you lacked damage projection (and you didn't put eccm on your scimitars - that's standard on any logi). You had to choose between burning out of range of us to shoot the falcon, or ignoring us. That was your problem. Being against the caldari militia, I'd say we run into the most falcon pilots of any lowsec gang on a regular basis, and we often fight them without logistics or ecm of our own.
Oh, and that ishkur you killed... He shouldn't have been there, I told him he was in the wrong ship for the fight, but he's unfortunately pure gallente specc'd and didn't have anything to fight with, so he just came to ***** on mails.
To answer other people about "drakes at 50" - we stayed in point range of our primaries the whole time. As you can see on the battle report, there were no lach's, we had no logis. I think we could have handily beat them without any ecm of our own given their ship fittings.
IMO, close range dps in a fleet is obsolete. It's why gallente ships are so bad for pvp right now.
Confirming everything said above, ECM helped but a AC cane fleet is simply no match for a nano drake fleet due to damage projection. Your canes were also not nano fit, making them too slow to close the gap. I was even able to completely circle your gang to get to the scimi's to hold points. Also I wouldn't blindly engage reds in our area. Your gang did so earlier which allowed me to harass due to agression mechanics and also gave me the information I needed to tell the FC "they are slow, this will be np".
Good luck, learn from this and come back and kick our butts some time:)
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TestChar PleaseIgnor
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Posted - 2011.04.25 18:08:00 -
[56]
RR gang without ECCM...
And you wonder why you got ****d?...
ThereĤs the door ->
gtfo.
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ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2011.04.25 20:15:00 -
[57]
I'd just like to say, this has been a great thread. 
Discoverer of the Original Missile Damage Formula |
Yabba Addict
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Posted - 2011.04.25 21:44:00 -
[58]
The thing that really ****es me off about ECM is that when fielded and used successfully, the losing side imediately heads to the forums and brings up yet another 'ECM is OP, Nerf ECM, ECM screwed my sister...wait a sec, that was something else. Anyway, they start these threads without even considering that ECM only had a part to play in the battle, it wasn't the end game iwin button. Do they look to themselves, their fleet comp, their tactics?
In short, ECM is NOT broken.
Proposed fix (Not all of them, just one)
Add ECM to the language filter so all the ECM whines become *** whines 
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! I want to smell dark matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I'm a machine! And I can know much more. |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.04.25 23:19:00 -
[59]
Hi OP, I totally sympathise with you. The other day my Ibis gang took on a fleet of AML Caracals. There was clearly nothing we could do, and I say assault missiles and Caracals should be nerfed.
_________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Kovorix
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Posted - 2011.04.26 03:42:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Kovorix on 26/04/2011 03:43:26
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: Mag's
So you got owned, because you failed to scout and plan ahead. But instead of learning from it and adapting, you decided to run to the forums spouting made up nonsense and whine about it.
Go you.
I think they're learning.
Rule 1. Have a plan to push ECM off field. If no plan, then don't engage.
Rule 2. Have a plan to negate logis. If no plan, then don't engage. etc...
Rule 3. Study your opponent's fits after a loss and figure out what advantages they had. (ECM was just one of many.)
Win or lose, is was a fun fight (more fun for my side 'cause we won ). I hope you guys adapt and come back for some more pew. You'll get better if you do.
This x100. If you are flying a gang that size and have that much preparation time, you need to either be able to deal with ECM or have a plan to force it off. Epic fail on the OP's gang.
HOWEVER! ECM is still broken in my opinion. It becomes insurmountable when you get down to even smaller gang sizes - I'm talking flying 5 or fewer ships. It gets much worse solo. The problem at that point becomes figuring viable ways to fit your ship in order to counter ECM, often falcons and ECM drones, while still remaining versatile for other engagements.
Basically you can be creative and use tactics to be able to engage gangs twice your size in just a couple ships, but as soon as the enemy fields a single ECM ship you are pretty much f'ed. This is a distinction that belongs ONLY to ECM and ECM alone. Anyone who has EVER flown solo or in (very) small gangs can confirm this fact.
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