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Not Losing your ship to WH visitors ?

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brighter better	Posted - 2011.05.09 07:27:00 - [1] hi Sooner or later you are going to get caught napping .... any tactics or suggestions ? Ive heard this .. if you get caught .. pull the trigger ship and hope they target the visitors. Also I suppose you can travel in a gang and blitz the site but they will most probably be in a gang of 2 or more. Maybe bring a logi or a recon to try and turn the tables ?
Socks Malone	Posted - 2011.05.09 07:57:00 - [2] Sounds like you are all alone in your WH, so here are some possible solutions to decreasing the chances of getting ganked. 1. 2 accts on 2 computers, 2nd acct sits at WH with probes out scanning for new holes. You can only do this when you have 1 WH into your system 2. Not activating your WH and having a core probe launcher on your ship scanning frequently. Any new sigs are WH's being opened into your system and time for you to GTFO. -Using a cheap ship such a a BC but having good/great skills. You won't kill as fast as a T3, but then you won't lose 1 billion ISK either if you get popped.
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.05.09 08:28:00 - [3] Be aligned, dscan, keep a probe out ignoring current sigs, have someone cloaked watching each wh that has or could have been scanned down to 100% by yourselves or someone while you weren't on (aka don't assume if you only have the static wh and that you haven't scanned it that someone wasn't on and just getting out from higher class space via your home. Only if you've cycled the static and not scanned it is it safe). A falcon could work, but a logi ship would need to be tanking sleepers to be there with you. And shooting the trigger is a last ditch effort, PvP fits are usually well buffered, with backup, and do more dps to you than the whole of a final wave of a c3. Only if it's a cov ops/bomber/recon do you have a chance of driving it off before something like a dualboxed BS can land and lock you, and people are rarely flying a gang quite that small.
Apex Bex	Posted - 2011.05.09 10:59:00 - [4] Unless you're absolutely confident the system is empty/secure, only run the sleeper sites that need to be scanned down, like Radars and Magnetometrics. That way they at least have to probe you down to find you. If you Dscan regularly you'll have ample warning. If you're running the Sleepers that can be scanned using the on board scanner make sure you have back up close by. We tend to have a Falcon sitting cloaked about 50km's off the group. That way if aggressors jump you he can jam them out from range until you warp to safety. There really should be a Wormhole board on these forums...
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat	Posted - 2011.05.09 12:24:00 - [5] If you are caught napping, you are dead. There is no way around that. Even when you are not napping you can get ganked though. Putting a large T2 bubble on incoming wormholes will often buy you some time, but not a whole lot. The people entering will either slow-boat through it, or more likely destroy it. In large systems, you really need someone with a probe launcher and deep space probes constantly scanning. More than one is of course better. So if you are looking for a system to move into, small systems where dscan covers everything are preferable. Leave outgoing wormholes closed. Keep a log of one-probe signature strengths, and you will soon learn to tell the difference between incoming and outgoing wormholes. The longer you live in w-space, the more likely you are going to suffer a major loss at some point. It is the cost of living there. Make sure to set aside ISK and/or ships for backup use.
Darcon Kylote Setenta Corp -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.05.09 15:57:00 - [6] Stay aligned. The guys that align out all the time are much harder to catch. The ganker needs sensor recalibration time after decloaking to target you, or they can choose to decloak as they are warping in. Either way you have a couple seconds reaction time to get out if you are already aligned. Keeping an uncluttered overview helps with your reaction time on this. The only exception to this is using a bomber with a point (no targeting delay). And this is tough because bombers are so soft and are easily popped by sleepers. Sleepers target new arrivals in a site, especially ones that use ewar like a warp scram. So most gankers will try and wait till you are close to finishing a spawn. This is the time to stay most alert.
Zircalla	Posted - 2011.05.09 16:06:00 - [7] Edited by: Zircalla on 09/05/2011 16:07:01 Also watch out for HICs, they have no targeting delay and make excellent tacklers in w-space ; ofc, they cannot warp while cloaked, but if they have a scout watching you, they can get there in a hurry.
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.05.09 17:49:00 - [8] In the carebear's defence, doing lower class mags and radars probably isn't worth the isk for the the time compared to anoms, especially if you're just talking about doing them in a drake or having to go via your static to get there (big target to scan, and time if you're just 1 guy reshipping to salvage/restock). Also don't assume pve sigs are safe, people will scan all sigs in a system if they see the inhabitants are tasty targets from POS + killboards, and have everything ready to warp to before you even log on/come back from bein afk.
Lamar Calrissian	Posted - 2011.05.09 18:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Daneel Also don't assume pve sigs are safe, people will scan all sigs in a system if they see the inhabitants are tasty targets from POS + killboards, and have everything ready to warp to before you even log on/come back from bein afk.[/quote Very True
grumpyguts1	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:06:00 - [10] Spam dscan.. If I am solo in the corp C3 WH and I see any ship I run to the pos cause he is bound to have friends, has saved my Tengu a few times doing this. Only been caught once and it was when I was salvaging and a cloaked buzzard landed on me and scrammed me... nothing you can do in a salvager :( next thing 5 BS land and I was toast. Now if I salvage solo I have a smartbomb for just in case, doubt it will help. Noctis needs a drone bay Also been Stealth Bombed a few times but always been lucky to get away before the torps land

Apex Bex	Posted - 2011.05.10 01:15:00 - [11] It's all about risk assessment tbh. Dotlan is a great tool to see the sort of activity you've had in your Wormhole system for the day. If there's been a lot of jumps in and out and you know there are multiple exits/entries, consider the system unsafe for the time being. If you have to salvage under such circumstances, don't use the Noctis, it's just too sweet a target. Use a fast Destroyer, stab it if you must, or just wait 24 hours for the exits to close. If you scan a wormhole exit from your system it doesn't actually open on the other side until you go 'on grid' with it. So, say you have two exits each day, do a scan of all sigs, if only two Wormholes are among them and you haven't been to them, you know you're locked up tight and can move freely within your system. The only exception to the rule is if you have a very patient cloaker in your system who is counting on the fact you'll resume normal operations once you think you're secure. I know I've done it... Best defence, as always, is a good offence. Soloing anything in a Wormhole is potentially deadly; the more friends you have with you, the more secure you will be.
Hallingen Caldari SWARTA	Posted - 2011.05.10 13:46:00 - [12] Ecm drones. Ecm burst. Run like hell.
Lost Greybeard	Posted - 2011.05.11 12:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Hallingen Ecm drones. Ecm burst. Run like hell. Burst doesn't fit on most of my site-farming fits (infinitank + rack o'lasers + salvager + codebreaker + analyzer = not a lot of spare slots). But I'm totally with you on the drones/flee angle, when you're solo using combat drones would only get the drones chewed up by sleepers anyhow. --- If you outlaw tautologies, only outlaws will have tautologies. ~Anonymous
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.11 14:10:00 - [14] Originally by: Apex Bex If you scan a wormhole exit from your system it doesn't actually open on the other side until you go 'on grid' with it. So, say you have two exits each day, do a scan of all sigs, if only two Wormholes are among them and you haven't been to them, you know you're locked up tight and can move freely within your system. This has never been proven, it's a dumb as **** theory that's been floating around from before dotlan & staticmapper existed to prove it stupid. If anyone has any source on this, cough up. It's just a silly assumption that lingers because you can't prove it wrong.
foksieloy Minmatar Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.05.11 14:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Lady Go Diveher It's just a silly assumption that lingers because you can't prove it wrong. And there are people who repeat it quite zealously, showing themselves as silly. Sounds familiar, for some reason. _______________________ The best thing in EvE is Barrage M.
Destamon Azure Freelancers	Posted - 2011.05.11 17:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Lady Go Diveher If anyone has any source on this, cough up. It's just a silly assumption that lingers because you can't prove it wrong. It's only circumstantial evidence, but I first saw it mentioned here. Whether an exit actually spawns or not is impossible to prove or disprove conclusively, without CCP stepping in and saying "it is so".
Cucumber Sammiches	Posted - 2011.05.11 21:19:00 - [17] Drink lots of cola.
Apex Bex	Posted - 2011.05.11 21:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Lady Go Diveher Originally by: Apex Bex If you scan a wormhole exit from your system it doesn't actually open on the other side until you go 'on grid' with it. So, say you have two exits each day, do a scan of all sigs, if only two Wormholes are among them and you haven't been to them, you know you're locked up tight and can move freely within your system. This has never been proven, it's a dumb as **** theory that's been floating around from before dotlan & staticmapper existed to prove it stupid. If anyone has any source on this, cough up. It's just a silly assumption that lingers because you can't prove it wrong. Proving it would be quite a task, however circumstantial evidence supports it. We regularly 'close' our WH system to visitors and the only time we see a breach is when a new WH opens into our system, not the other way around. Morerover, if you go on grid with your known exits they despawn in 24 hours. Staying off grid sees them last for days and days, until someone finally goes on grid with them and starts the timer. There's nothing silly about it and it's not an assumption. It's a theory and evidence supports it.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.05.12 00:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Lady Go Diveher This has never been proven, it's a dumb as **** theory that's been floating around from before dotlan & staticmapper existed to prove it stupid. If anyone has any source on this, cough up. It's just a silly assumption that lingers because you can't prove it wrong. Obviously, you've never lived in a wh. Thus, you've no idea what you're talking about.
Forgotten Heathen Heretical Innovations	Posted - 2011.05.12 05:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Lady Go Diveher Originally by: Apex Bex If you scan a wormhole exit from your system it doesn't actually open on the other side until you go 'on grid' with it. So, say you have two exits each day, do a scan of all sigs, if only two Wormholes are among them and you haven't been to them, you know you're locked up tight and can move freely within your system. This has never been proven, it's a dumb as **** theory that's been floating around from before dotlan & staticmapper existed to prove it stupid. If anyone has any source on this, cough up. It's just a silly assumption that lingers because you can't prove it wrong. Actually, it's been proven quite easily and is known as fact amonst those who actually live in wormholes. Here is how it's a proven fact. You get an Unstable Wormhole signature. Now we're going to assume you live in the wormhole, because all of the "silly" people who don't scan the same system down every day for quite some time are not going to know which sigs go where from day to day. So yesterday you scanned this wormhole down. You've got it to 100%, but you didn't warp to it. Let's assume you're in a Class 1 with static high sec, so it's a N110 wormhole. How do we know that's what it is without warping to it? Because it's the only wormhole sig in the entire system. Hell, we'll say we bottomed the wormhole out and it's the ONLY sig in the system, because we've all done this before. What? You haven't? But I thought you were the wormhole pro. Certainly you've lived in a system long enough to outpace the spawn rate of sigs, right? So we've got a single sig, bookmarked the other day, and we know it's an N110. Well, an N110 has a 24 hour lifetime. Whoops, you scanned this sig down over 24 hours ago. Wait, what's it still doing in the exact same place you scanned it down yesterday then? I'm not quite sure how you'll explain that. So, to make things even better, we'll warp to your N110 wormhole. Show Info on the wormhole and "This wormhole has not yet begun it's life cycle". Imagine that. Yet the signature has been here for over 24 hours. Or, maybe it says " This wormhole has begun to decay and may not lsat very much longer", I'm paraphrasing these, just so you know. But that message means it has over 50% of it's life left. But we still scanned and bookmarked this over 24 hours ago. I can prove this one to you everyday I live in my wormhole. If you want to argue about it, at least go to google and check to see if anything you are saying hasn't been proven in some way or another. So here's my "silly source", living for over a year in wormholes, with some Unstable Wormhole signatures lasting until, you guessed it, someone starts a warp to them. They can, in fact, theoretically last forever. Wormholes, Asteroids, Profit! - Living In A Wormhole

foksieloy Minmatar Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.05.12 05:41:00 - [21] The comment was not about it lasting on your side. Noone cares about that. It is about not having an exit in K-space or whatever until you warp to it on your side. Which is just being silly. Re-read the above posts, kthxbai. _______________________ The best thing in EvE is Barrage M.
Apex Bex	Posted - 2011.05.12 05:49:00 - [22] Originally by: foksieloy The comment was not about it lasting on your side. Noone cares about that. It is about not having an exit in K-space or whatever until you warp to it on your side. Which is just being silly. Re-read the above posts, kthxbai. Now you're being silly. Dotlan and EVEEYE allow you to track all traffic coming and going through your system. That traffic NEVER happens when you stay off grid from the exit. The ONLY time we see traffic is when another entry opens up. I'll say again, the ONLY time. In my 8 months in this Wormhole I've either been RIDICULOUSLY lucky, or the theory is supported.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat	Posted - 2011.05.12 06:54:00 - [23] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 12/05/2011 06:59:54 Originally by: Forgotten Heathen Actually, it's been proven quite easily and is known as fact amonst those who actually live in wormholes. I've been in w-space since Apocrypha (2+ years), and I'll second it. We actually discovered this all by ourselves by daily scanning our system and watching traffic. I first noticed it when our C2 with a hisec static would be high traffic after I warped to the hisec wormhole, but I could often mine for days on end and never see another ship in the system if nobody warped to the static. Later, sites like DOTLAN confirmed it: don't warp to an outgoing wormhole (static or random), and it cannot be scanned from the incoming (K162) side. We can _always_ tell when we have a new random incoming wormhole, because DOTLAN shows the jumps into the system. We also confirmed that you don't have to land on grid. Just initiating warp is enough.
foksieloy Minmatar Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.05.12 07:06:00 - [24] Then it works both ways, doesn't it? You never see an incoming one until someone initiates warp to it? _______________________ The best thing in EvE is Barrage M.
Apex Bex	Posted - 2011.05.12 07:43:00 - [25] Originally by: foksieloy Then it works both ways, doesn't it? You never see an incoming one until someone initiates warp to it? Kind of; it doesn't appear in our system until someone warps to the origin point. So if you have one static HiSec exit from your WH system, but you scan two, one of them is an exit and the other is an entry.
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.12 10:44:00 - [26] See the problem with all of this is, you all seem to believe in unicorns. I've been in and out of WH space for 18months, and have never reliably seen this to hold true. Sure, if you scan a hole to 100% and never warp to it, it seems to last days, instead of hours. But that's pretty irrelevant as proof. I have witnessed traffic INTO a system multiple times, despite the only hole being a not-warped-to static. Yes, I checked for K162's tyvm. So, again - if you have anything other than "this one time, at band camp" anecdotal bull****, bring it along. Oh wait, no you don't. Because you did this once, then went all confirmation-bias on your own ass and believe in unicorns. This, along with the "you get better nanoribbon drops using a Noctis" and all the other BS I hear makes me believe WH space drives you lot to different levels of insanity.
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.05.12 12:54:00 - [27] K162s come and go, people open their static into a system, don't see anything to pew, don't want the system's static, close theirs move on. You don't see the evidence in the sigs but a few jumps and maybe anoms run. Everybody has compelling evidence that wormholes are accurate in their timers, people don't need to point out the obvious that we live with statics that EOL and expire like clockwork. 16hour hole found to be naff, left overnight, found EOL in the morning, still there after DT but a new sig an hour later, right on time. This is undeniable. I believe there's a part of the official data dump that states the mass and timers for the different wormholes by their front sig. Certaintly there's multiple sources for it now and they're heavily relied upon. Far more k162s get scanned and checked than statics closed. One will generally scan 2+ jumps away from their home but almost always only cycle their own static. If wormholes had a sig the other side all the time, they'd be often found as that k162 is easy and desirable to scan, and then you'd have a paradox because you'd be saying the timer does run and that hole will go in e.g.24hours because those guys from the back side have seen it, but equally it remains in the same place for days and doesn't start it's timer until warped to for the front side guys. It can't be both and timers are consistent once started. So timers mustn't start until someone warps to the sig, and then it spawns the backside k162. Did that make sense?
Rasz Lin Caldari Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated	Posted - 2011.05.12 13:06:00 - [28] Originally by: Daneel Trevize Did that make sense? was about to post how confused that made me, but i see you predicted that :)
Apex Bex	Posted - 2011.05.12 13:20:00 - [29] Originally by: Lady Go Diveher See the problem with all of this is, you all seem to believe in unicorns. I've been in and out of WH space for 18months, and have never reliably seen this to hold true. Sure, if you scan a hole to 100% and never warp to it, it seems to last days, instead of hours. But that's pretty irrelevant as proof. I have witnessed traffic INTO a system multiple times, despite the only hole being a not-warped-to static. Yes, I checked for K162's tyvm. So, again - if you have anything other than "this one time, at band camp" anecdotal bull****, bring it along. Oh wait, no you don't. Because you did this once, then went all confirmation-bias on your own ass and believe in unicorns. This, along with the "you get better nanoribbon drops using a Noctis" and all the other BS I hear makes me believe WH space drives you lot to different levels of insanity. To suggest these conclusions are reached based on isolated incidents or 'one offs' is pretty arrogant on your behalf. It's repeated, day in, day out and has never failed us. Not once. But hey, I guess we all have a different perspective. Believe what you will.
Lady Go Diveher	Posted - 2011.05.12 13:54:00 - [30] Edited by: Lady Go Diveher on 12/05/2011 13:56:44 Originally by: Apex Bex To suggest these conclusions are reached based on isolated incidents or 'one offs' is pretty arrogant on your behalf. It's repeated, day in, day out and has never failed us. Not once. But hey, I guess we all have a different perspective. Believe what you will. Yep ... and yet all of the other crack-pot theories on here are defended in the same manner. Endless people confirming it by anecdotal evidence. I'm inclined to believe if this was provable, there would be numbers. Something like: Wormhole Jxxxxxx, highsec static. Jumps per-day when static is scanned and warped to: Y Jumps per-day when static isn't scanned and warped to: Z P > 0.05 plz WH's have been around 2 years, and I have never seen this basic level of analysis applied. EDIT: I can confirm, on many many (MANY) occasions jumping into a K162 to find the other side completely empty. Looking up the J# shows zero jumps within 48 hours. But I guess you just magic that out of your little theory ..



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