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Serenity 159080
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:07:00 -
[1]
A player has asked me why ISK from previous loot auctions was not used to reimburse the ship loses during the mom fight earlier today. Due to DT, I was a bit rushed, and so I would like to explain in more detail here.
At the moment the ISK is maintained by several FC's, and so can only be accessed when one of them is online. This is something that hopefully will be improved, I have already had a few suggestions, which I will pass on to other FC's.
However sometimes there may be no ISK in the pot, and so player donations will be neccessary. Players should keep in mind that they will not be continuously paying out ISK, ship loses are relatively rare in experianced Incursion fleets, so on the few occasions that player donations are required, please just send a few ISK to help another player out.
Something that I would like to point out:
The loot is grabbed by one person, who then *donates* it to the fleet for auction.
The ISK from the loot auctions is more often a *donation* to the fleet than actually an auction. I have seen players pay 4x the market value of the loot to support the fleet.
This shows the community spirit that I like, and these are the players that I will be inviting to my fleets.
If loot reimbursement becomes too controversial, and too problematic, then it might be stoped and player donations will be used. I don't want that to happen.
Moving on to Logistic ships in perticular:
Running logistic's is a very difficult job, requiring focus and attention at all times.
Logistic ships are T2, so insurance payouts will not cover the cost of the hull.
Logistic ships are very weakly tanked compared to Battleships.
Bomber spawns are designed to kill logistic's.
If logistic pilots are not supported, they will simply switch to flying DPS, as it is there is already a shortage of logistic pilots. A small payment from you to support our logistic's will ensure they continue flying with us, and you will be rewarded in return by not having to sit around for 30 minutes trying to recruit logi's.
Please sponsor a Logistic Pilot today.
These are just some of my thoughts on this, and may or may not represent those of other FC's. If you have a suggestion, then please send me a mail.
Serenity
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:11:00 -
[2]
You should clearly adopt a Master Looter system and be nice to your space-priests.
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Gank'aho
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:27:00 -
[3]
Troll, Ill take a bite.
Maybe players should grow a pair, isnt rule #2 don't fly what you cannot afford to lose?
If you have people dying the logi are not doing their job so why would I reimburse their ****. Unable to find good logi? get a better corp.
Real friends fly what is needed and don't moan about losses, best ship is friendship. |
Jeter Pricecheck
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:41:00 -
[4]
Thanks for letting us all know. Everyone in Eve needed to hear this.
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SimoneIsGod
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:47:00 -
[5]
I fly dual logistics ships and have just spent over 200mil upgrading them with T2 rigs to make them 10% better at what they do so im hoping if i went pop i would get something to help cover the loss but would not expect a full 250mil per ship as i get rewards for these sites to. Iv chosen to because im increasingly flying with more and more expencive ships and think if the people are investing this into there dps then i should be putting extra investment into keeping them alive.
Ok so what happens if a 2bil vindi goes down how much do we give to them and should there be a "top" set limit for dps ships? this also raises some questions about how much T1 hulls should be funded?
personly im happy with how its working atm hardin holds the cash and all MOM loot get contracted to him with list of what ships went down. Maybe even all mom ship dontating 2mil regardless of ship loss's to this fund so he can reimburse this would add some consitency to ship refunds if adding a bit of time to the prosess
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salty Milk
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:48:00 -
[6]
so no matter how much love ccp are pouring onto incursions fleets they are still finding ways to make their own situations worse?
♥ pve
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Serenity 159080
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Posted - 2011.05.23 14:53:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Gank'aho
Troll, Ill take a bite.
Maybe players should grow a pair, isnt rule #2 don't fly what you cannot afford to lose?
If you have people dying the logi are not doing their job so why would I reimburse their ****. Unable to find good logi? get a better corp.
Real friends fly what is needed and don't moan about losses, best ship is friendship.
After you have flown a mom site and been alpha'd by the bomber spawn, please let me know.
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Thalaso Phobic
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Posted - 2011.05.23 15:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gank'aho
Troll, Ill take a bite.
Maybe players should grow a pair, isnt rule #2 don't fly what you cannot afford to lose?
If you have people dying the logi are not doing their job so why would I reimburse their ****. Unable to find good logi? get a better corp.
Real friends fly what is needed and don't moan about losses, best ship is friendship.
^^
I know it possibly put me to BL of some FC but...
I lost 2 ships in incursions, never ask for reimbursement. Never got any. What for? I fly ships i can afford to loose as i am making hell of isk doing incursions.
I sent a lot of money to people who lost their ships and i was doing it willigly and sent more than i was asked for. To the moment I found out, that it is easy to make money on dying in mom fleet. Reward + insurance + reimbursement + good hearts who sent several mils more > cost of ship. "Oh it had to be a lag, suddenly everything went red and I got alphaed." I heard that from triple boxing guy... I am not accusing anybody, just using this to illustrate, what is happening. Don't want to support that...
Everybody is making hell of money in incursions. Logis have it even easier. Everybody wants them. What they risk? 160mil ship? I risk 800mil tengu and there are people who risk several bilions ships...
So what will happen if there will be no reimbursements? Will people stop to bring shield logi ships to mom fleets? Probably not but anyway if they will. So let armor risk their logis and do mom, get themself looted by some ninja while I am going to be making more isk doing vanguards or assaults with less risk to ship loss. I don't have to compete with armor. I let them "enjoy" mom fleets and the "feeling of win" easily. Who cares? I do incursions for isk and meeting people. I am not taking it as challenge...
And then. When armor finds out and stops doing moms what will happen? Will people form mom fleet when incursion is withdrawing? Sure, everybody wants LPs...
And if not? If nobody will be doing mom sites? LP will go up in price and there will be mom fleets again. No worries.
I simply don't understand what is the fuss here? If someone wants to send money, his choice. If not, don't force anybody.
BTW it is just game. Have you tried to buy hamburger for isk? It does not work... :o)
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Illwill Bill
Talu Shaya
Talu Shaya Empire
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Posted - 2011.05.23 15:54:00 -
[9]
wat 
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Revenge is a dish best served with auto-cannons.
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Serenity 159080
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Posted - 2011.05.23 16:53:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Serenity 159080 on 23/05/2011 16:54:36
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
Reward + insurance + reimbursement + good hearts who sent several mils more > cost of ship.
If the person looses their ship, they get no reward.
Insurance doesn't even cover the cost of a T1 hull, let alone a T2/T3/Faction ship.
Even with the good hearts that send extra, too many people don't bother to donate.
I don't ask people to donate so much that it becomes profitable, just a "sorry you lost your ship" token.
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
"Oh it had to be a lag, suddenly everything went red and I got alphaed." I heard that from triple boxing guy... I am not accusing anybody, just using this to illustrate, what is happening. Don't want to support that...
The fleet was short on pilots, he was there. He may have recieved a larger reward, but he also did more damage. I hope he does not mind me saying this, but while other pilots were not even contributing, he turns around after his ship lose, and donates far more than anyone else. In the end he did more work than anyone and got about the same reward.
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
Logis have it even easier.
If a DPS pilot is distracted for a while with chat, who cares, the fleet looses a little DPS, if a Logi is distracted for even one second your 800m ISK Tengu explodes. From the start of the site to the end, they can not make a single mistake or loose focus.
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
Who cares? I do incursions for isk and meeting people.
People that loose their ships, and you don't even care enough to give them a token gusture.
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
I simply don't understand what is the fuss here? If someone wants to send money, his choice. If not, don't force anybody.
That would be fine with me, but people that think like that should form their own fleets. If they join fleets where there is a policy of reimbursement, don;t wait until you get paid and then say "well I don't really believe in that".
Serenity
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Mylor Torlone
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Serenity 159080
Edited by: Serenity 159080 on 23/05/2011 16:54:36
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
Reward + insurance + reimbursement + good hearts who sent several mils more > cost of ship.
If the person looses their ship, they get no reward.
Insurance doesn't even cover the cost of a T1 hull, let alone a T2/T3/Faction ship.
Even with the good hearts that send extra, too many people don't bother to donate.
I don't ask people to donate so much that it becomes profitable, just a "sorry you lost your ship" token.
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
"Oh it had to be a lag, suddenly everything went red and I got alphaed." I heard that from triple boxing guy... I am not accusing anybody, just using this to illustrate, what is happening. Don't want to support that...
The fleet was short on pilots, he was there. He may have recieved a larger reward, but he also did more damage. I hope he does not mind me saying this, but while other pilots were not even contributing, he turns around after his ship lose, and donates far more than anyone else. In the end he did more work than anyone and got about the same reward.
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
Logis have it even easier.
If a DPS pilot is distracted for a while with chat, who cares, the fleet looses a little DPS, if a Logi is distracted for even one second your 800m ISK Tengu explodes. From the start of the site to the end, they can not make a single mistake or loose focus.
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
Who cares? I do incursions for isk and meeting people.
People that loose their ships, and you don't even care enough to give them a token gusture.
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
I simply don't understand what is the fuss here? If someone wants to send money, his choice. If not, don't force anybody.
That would be fine with me, but people that think like that should form their own fleets. If they join fleets where there is a policy of reimbursement, don;t wait until you get paid and then say "well I don't really believe in that".
Serenity
Who are you?
Posting in a "I think I'm important" thread
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Carebears on Fire
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:20:00 -
[12]
I will assume that what you are talking about only applies to some subset of the Eve player-base who will understand what you are talking about.
--Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Thalaso Phobic
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Posted - 2011.05.23 18:43:00 -
[13]
Some my quotations are cut out of context. But ok, nevermind.
To be clear, i am not doing some flame war with you, Serenity. I like your fleets and appreciate your FCing. And the same way i value all FC's work, I do value logi's work as everybody else's work in fleet. Cooperation makes our isk. Whatever we use them for.
Why am i writing these posts is that I want to give another point of view. That the principle of no reimbursement (or at least no mandatory reimbursment) maybe can work much better for everybody. That everyone should take or not take the risk of loosing ship in fleets and if someone wants to donate, than donate. Most of us are adults responsible for their real lives so why care about carebearing in a game?
As i said, i lost 2 ship in incursions, never got anything and i am perfectly ok with that. And even today i sent some isk. I don't like the whole principle though.
Btw i was listening to fleet conversation to the end and I know, what that triple boxing guy did. That's why I said I am not accusing anyone, just illustrate.
But that multi boxing thing increase risk of failure. And if someone is doing it, it should be his own risk. Even if it means no mom fleet or later mom fleet.
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Serenity 159080
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Posted - 2011.05.23 20:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Serenity 159080 on 23/05/2011 20:18:48
Originally by: Mylor Torlone
Originally by: Serenity 159080
My post.
Who are you?
Posting in a "I think I'm important" thread
I am an FC that runs Incursions, normally Assault/HQ/Mothership's.
Was it really neccessary to quote my entire post to ask a question, and I don't expect everyone to know me, but please don't go off calling people no one just because you have no idea who they are.
Originally by: De'Veldrin
I will assume that what you are talking about only applies to some subset of the Eve player-base who will understand what you are talking about.
Looking at it, yes I was a bit cryptic, hopefully I have cleared that up a bit.
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Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.05.23 20:22:00 -
[15]
I think the current system of letting people do what they want and have to deal with concequences if any later on is an important aspect in eve, if he ****ed you off that much war deck him and grind him into the ground, of course war isnt the only option of course you can hit thier wallets or even thier reputation.
Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 3APR11
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.05.23 22:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Thalaso Phobic
I don't like the whole principle though.
Agreed.
While I'm all up for the general good will and cooperation exbited amongst the incursioners, the principle of creating a full or even partial re-imbursement program may be open to abuse and it will make things more complicated than it should be. If you start holding hands for failures, there will be no meaning to the whole thing any longer.
Keep it simple, let things take its course and grow naturally. The fear/threat that no one will take up logis/mom fights is an overreaction. There will always be people. There's no need to turn the whole thing into full charity work.
That said, imo, the middle-ground is asking each person (within the fleet) donating to within their capacity. This should be done on their own free will. I've lost a faction ship in incursion, and at no point I expected that loss to be covered. The several million donations from several folks (not everyone) in the fleet was a nice surprise, and I would return the favour if it was vice-versa - in the spirit of goodwill. Losing the ship sucks, yes, but a good lesson was also learned.
The above works fine, and I don't see why you need to over-complicate things with extra hand holding.
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n00n3r
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
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Posted - 2011.05.23 22:57:00 -
[17]
where does the extra loot auction ISK go when ship losses have already been covered? Past FC's would divvy that ISK among everyone in the fleet, and not store it in someones wallet.
Seems kind of shady.
_____________________________________________
Interested in Incursions? Check out our recruitment thread here: Link |
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CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2011.05.24 09:04:00 -
[18]
Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.
Spitfire
Community Representative
CCP Hf, EVE Online |
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Otebski
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Posted - 2011.05.24 10:19:00 -
[19]
Firstly. I was in that mom fleet and i transfered cash requested for reimbursement. But...
I am against reimbursing t1 ships in any form. Concord does that well enough and if ppl dont insure their ships they got themself to blame.
Also reimbursing t1 hulls does not encourage people to bring better suited ships and can easily get to a point where people will earn cash from losing them.
I have nothing against reimbursing people for lost logis tho on principle i think everyone shares the risk and reward. Each and every of those logi ships paid for itself many times over. I know my sleipnir did it easily. You have to remember that the better ship you bring the easier it is to get into blitz fleets. Its even more apparent in case of logis. A single mom fleet reward covers the cost of most t2 hulls. Nobody will stop going to incursions just because that one time they came out with no profit.
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Lady Go Diveher
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Posted - 2011.05.24 10:51:00 -
[20]
FC? PVE?
I like how Incursions have given a lot of carebears able to Rightclick > Broadcast target a sense of self importance. Jesus.
TBH all this is, is logi fail. Torps have travel distance and time. If a logi isn't spamming "need shield/armour" as soon as he's being targetted by the bombers then he deserves to DIAF and get nothing back.
You all need to optimise your overviews and fail less.
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HardinSalvor
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Posted - 2011.05.24 11:01:00 -
[21]
Originally by: n00n3r
where does the extra loot auction ISK go when ship losses have already been covered? Past FC's would divvy that ISK among everyone in the fleet, and not store it in someones wallet.
Seems kind of shady.
It goes into my wallet and pays for an officer vindicator. Next question.
Seriously though, people trust me with their multibillion isk incursion ships and that trust extends to taking personal care of the pot. I take that trust very seriously and take the same care of the pot as I would with a fleet when I FC.
As for dividing it up, thats a waste. It would amount to only 5-10m more per player and involves way too much right clicking xD As has been pointed out, if the pot continues to grow faster than we loose ships we'll find a way of using it for BTL. Maybe some kind of competition, or as was said to hire an FC to train some people. Lots of possibilities.
*wanders off to buy Estamels...*
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skajit spey
spey clave
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Posted - 2011.05.24 11:19:00 -
[22]
Serenity,
1) Ingnore the trolls...they will always be here...
2) I flew on many of your fleets and I remember your first mom fleet as FC...you did great! I have since flown with lesser FC's. On that same occurence, it was my first mom fleet as a logi pilot rather than sniper. Holy ****, much harder than i thought!! Thanks for the logi props.
3) Incursion 'fleets' best practices, with the leadership of those like yourself, and those who came before you, continue to evolve and improve. From a non-FCing fleet member perspective, I remeber the FC's that I enjoyed and respected and certainly remember the ones I didn't. I'm certain the view is similar from your perspective and those pilots who have 'griefed your command' will not be enjoying the rewards that your fleets gernerate.
4) To you and the other FC's I would like to say thank you for VOLUNTEERING for THE MOST DUFFICULT JOB in incursion fleets.
5) I have given and received isk for lost ships. It seems to work best with those in the current fleet and this process magnifys the community spirit you speak of. Trying to manage the 'loot-fund' may prove cumbersome with afk FC's etc. It may also inadvertantly raise expectations and remove the addage of only fly what you can afford to loose. I would hate to lose you, from my FC pool, due to 'burn-out'...
See you on the field...
o7
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Shajden
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Posted - 2011.05.24 11:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Torps have travel distance and time.
*writes down*
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Smagd
Encina Technologies
Namtz' aar K'in
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Posted - 2011.05.24 14:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gank'aho
Troll, Ill take a bite.
If you have people dying the logi are not doing their job so why would I reimburse their ****. Unable to find good logi? get a better corp.
Nice trolling yourself there.
A) You appear ignorant of HQ ECM bursts.
B) There are corp fleets in Incursions? Name one. *)
C) So it's *MY* fault if *ANOTHER* Logi pilot doesn't do his job?
D) Awesome idea to annoy Logi pilots. Nothing could possibly go wrong.
Anyway, I do exactly what you suggest and don't fly anything I'm not prepared to lose.
*) Although after a while you learn which Logi pilots to trust even outside corp.
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JackStraw56
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Posted - 2011.05.24 20:50:00 -
[25]
OP - you seem to have mistakenly posted a private discussion on the public forum.
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.05.25 02:28:00 -
[26]
Just throwing this out there, the FBs spawn at a fixed point, if you pull the mom off that point (it follows the fleet, slowly), keep your logis about 100km off of it and the fleet at their optimals, you will have ample time to burn down the FBs before they reach the logis.
LOGI---->DPS--->MOM--->FB SPAWN HERE
Terrible visual, but I hope it helps some.
That being said, I've never been anywhere in EVE where logis weren't reimbursed, at least hull and usually fitting as well.
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.05.25 04:56:00 -
[27]
I missed this gem earlier.
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
TBH all this is, is logi fail. Torps have travel distance and time. If a logi isn't spamming "need shield/armour" as soon as he's being targetted by the bombers then he deserves to DIAF and get nothing back.
You all need to optimise your overviews and fail less.
The NPC FBs cheat and ignore sig radius. It's an instapop as soon as the torps hit.
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Test Build
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Posted - 2011.05.26 05:25:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Test Build on 26/05/2011 05:26:28
For christ's sake.
Lose, as in lost.
Loose, as in your shoelaces.
Losing, loser, lost...
Loosing? NO. Loosening a bolt? OK
There is no LOOSING.
Here ends the lesson.
(My apologies, I've have a really bad day surrounded by turds)
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Cartheron Crust
Matari Exodus
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Posted - 2011.05.26 08:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Test Build
Edited by: Test Build on 26/05/2011 05:26:28
For christ's sake.
Lose, as in lost.
Loose, as in your shoelaces.
Losing, loser, lost...
Loosing? NO. Loosening a bolt? OK
There is no LOOSING.
Here ends the lesson.
(My apologies, I've have a really bad day surrounded by turds)
Apology not accepted.  |
Adrie Atticus
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods
Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Serenity 159080
Edited by: Serenity 159080 on 23/05/2011 20:28:45
This shows the communistic spirit that I like
Fixed for you.
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