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dreamsequencer
Amarr
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2011.05.24 10:07:00 -
[1]
Alot of questions about realism in space can be asked like whether or not there should be sound. But thatÆs not an issue and would only take a part of the fun out of the game. What I propose adds a huge amount of realism.
If you fly your spaceship and you turn, a very weird reaction is occurring. Your ship banks, it makes a roll along its longitudinal axis and starts its turn. If f.i. you have a big ship, you will not engage in warp until you ship returns back to level, even if youÆre aligned. Therefore I would like to propose the real action in space which occurs when you turn: THE YAW. Your whip should turn along its vertical axis. It adds to the realism and makes big ship warp correctly.
Another point is the levelling of the ship. If you fly up or down and you stop, your ship seems to level out to an imaginary horizontal line. Ships do not level out in space. There is no up or down.
So, CCP, what do you think. Can this be done?
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The Universal Migrator
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Carebears on Fire
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Posted - 2011.05.24 13:21:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: dreamsequencer
Can this be done?
Not without completely rewriting the physics engine that drives the game. The thing is playability trumps realism; a realistic physics model would make for very unexciting game play, especially in an MMOG.
--Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Halbert Vector
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Posted - 2011.05.24 13:32:00 -
[3]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: dreamsequencer
Can this be done?
a realistic physics model would make for very unexciting game play, especially in an MMOG.
I could not disagree more. The problem with this is what do you do instead? I can't think of any agreeable ways of solving the orientation anachronisms in eve that don't involve actually creating such a thing as orientation that can be independently controlled, which doesn't exist in eve yet. Right now the way your ship model is facing is just a visual thing done by the client, the server doesn't care which way your nose is pointing.
If this were to ever happen I think it would probably have to be part of a bigger change
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Lynx Arnaud
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.24 15:55:00 -
[4]
Yes, spaceships behaving like aircraft look a bit weird.
And unrealistic, unless they have very strange manoeuvring thrusters / gyros combination - only two pairs of thrusters for pitch and gyros for roll only.
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Holland Galebi
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.24 17:08:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lynx Arnaud
Yes, spaceships behaving like aircraft look a bit weird.
Like submarines 
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Ataru Vokan
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Posted - 2011.05.24 18:38:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Holland Galebi
Originally by: Lynx Arnaud
Yes, spaceships behaving like aircraft look a bit weird.
Like submarines
Haha, because submarines have artificial gravity and don't need to be level in relation to earth while underwater for the crew to be standing and safe.
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Reeno Coleman
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Posted - 2011.05.24 20:53:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Halbert Vector
Right now the way your ship model is facing is just a visual thing done by the client, the server doesn't care which way your nose is pointing.
That is not correct. Your ship entity does have a direction, which is controlled by the servers world simulation (destiny?). It's important for turning, aligning and accelerating.
Originally by: Halbert Vector
If this were to ever happen I think it would probably have to be part of a bigger change
This however is very true.
Another question: If space travel was our daily life, wouldn't we invent a navigation system that gives us an -artificial- orientation, like the main plane of the solar system? Navigation is so much easier when you have north and east and up and down. Doesn't Seafaring already work that way? Latitude and Longitude are also somewhat arbitrary.
As for ships turning and aligning: They do not work with conventional impulse propulsion, but with some freely invented science-fiction cross-dimensional gravity something drive. Who knows how it behaves xD? Lets call the way it is fictional realism and be happy about it.
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Darth Helmat
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Posted - 2011.05.24 23:21:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Reeno Coleman
Originally by: Halbert Vector
Right now the way your ship model is facing is just a visual thing done by the client, the server doesn't care which way your nose is pointing.
That is not correct. Your ship entity does have a direction, which is controlled by the servers world simulation (destiny?). It's important for turning, aligning and accelerating.
Originally by: Halbert Vector
If this were to ever happen I think it would probably have to be part of a bigger change
This however is very true.
Not sure about that - I don't think changes are needed to the server, the server only needs know the velocity vector, and compute the next velocity vector. Everything else is a choice as to how to render the model on the client to look good. Obviously someone thought the banking looked cool, when really it just looks a bit silly.
I do think you should die if you use a stargate upside down though ;-)
Quote:
Another question: If space travel was our daily life, wouldn't we invent a navigation system that gives us an -artificial- orientation, like the main plane of the solar system? Navigation is so much easier when you have north and east and up and down. Doesn't Seafaring already work that way? Latitude and Longitude are also somewhat arbitrary.
You would use r-theta-phi i would think, so the bottom of your ship always points to the sun when it, er, levels itself. Thats most intuitive when your near another orbiting body which is always moving in only one coordinate.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.24 23:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Reeno Coleman
Originally by: Halbert Vector
Right now the way your ship model is facing is just a visual thing done by the client, the server doesn't care which way your nose is pointing.
That is not correct. Your ship entity does have a direction, which is controlled by the servers world simulation (destiny?). It's important for turning, aligning and accelerating.
Actually, the Destiny simulation tells the direction/velocity/etc to the client of your ship's movements and then the client renders the ship in place of the Spheres that they use for their simulation.
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Amaroq Dricaldari
Amarr
Vengeance Industrial Militia
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Posted - 2011.05.24 23:32:00 -
[10]
All you have to do is remove the code that causes the ship to level itself out. You won;t have to rewrite the physics, just change the properties of the ships to take not level and take leveling entirely out of the equation. They could also remove the code that makes sure ships are rightside up, allowing you to fly them upside down or with the side facing down. This would also provide a reason to give the camera a wider range of movement, giving the true sense of being in space with no gravity. With an available point of focus (the HUD, the mouse cursor, and often the ship itself), it will be very hard to get motion sickness.
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The little things |
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DetKhord Saisio
Caldari
UnchainedPotential
Hand That Feeds
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Posted - 2011.05.25 00:21:00 -
[11]
Unless you want celestial objects (stars/suns, planets, moons, asteroids) projecting their (solar/lunar/planetary/asteroid) gravitational pull on your ship, probably resulting in a collision/you flying your pod/getting podded, you may want to rethink your idea. I agree that the vacuum of space has no sound, up/down, or oxygen... so anything physics/gravity related that can occur on the surface of Earth can not be translated exactly to the empty vacuum of space. Astrodynamics or Orbital Mechanics would change the way the game is played.
Adjustments to how ships "fly" in space would be necessary, requiring at least one line of CARBON code to change (though I seriously doubt only one). Removing our current earthly-like gravity for space travel could require all sorts of changes.
One that I would be most interested in are the mathematical theories and laws developed/discovered since the 21st Century. I would expect that those are set in stone and handbooks/references exist in every Captain's Quarters. With current EVE time thousands of years in the future from the 21st Century, there are certain things that would be common knowledge.
So, not supported until storyline can provide the mathematics behind how we used orbital mechanics to arrive where we are now in EVE.
<Nothing important to see here, move along.> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision |
Amaroq Dricaldari
Amarr
Vengeance Industrial Militia
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Posted - 2011.05.25 05:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: DetKhord Saisio
Removing our current earthly-like gravity for space travel could require all sorts of changes.
I never said removing Gravity, I said changing the properties of the ships themselves so that they don't automatically attempt to stay upright and level unless they were being affected by gravity of some kind.
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The little things |
dreamsequencer
Amarr
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2011.05.25 15:37:00 -
[13]
Some great pointers here.
I guess there is room for these changes. If HAL is cooperating.
Any more comments to make it easy (or not) for CCP?
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The Universal Migrator
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BLACK-STAR
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:00:00 -
[14]
CCP's Destiny engine needs to be overhauled or scrapped. It's coding is hell and CCP admits the code is a mess. I don't think there will be any changes like that unless CCP revamps destiny
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GavinCapacitor
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Posted - 2011.05.25 19:24:00 -
[15]
You all realize that as far as ship navigation is concerned your ship just has 1.) a position 2.) a velocity and 3.) a radius, right?
Which way it looks like you are facing has no effect on anything.
For example, no matter which way your ship looks like its facing, if you aren't moving (as in 0 m/s), it will take exactly the same amount to time to get into warp in ANY direction.
Because of this any changes would be entirely cosmetic.
Finally, they do not level on an "imaginary horizontal line" (also, you can't level yourself on a *line*), but they orient themselves to the solar systems ecliptic plane.
You should know what you are talking about before you suggest 'improvements'.
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dreamsequencer
Amarr
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2011.05.30 17:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: GavinCapacitor
You should know what you are talking about before you suggest 'improvements'.
I may not be a programmer or any other computer wizard. But I know space. The ecliptic plane is different for each planet, so it IS an imaginary horizintal line. And what I suggested about turning and banking adds to realism and is stupid in space, I don't care if it warps the same or where my nose is pointing.
Mayby you should work on your avatar before posting here.
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The Universal Migrator
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Tyme Xandr
Gallente
Stones Inc.
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 05:13:00 -
[17]
The ships hyperdrive (or jumpdrive) ((or whateverdrive)) is coordinated with the galactic plane and uses those figures to judge where your position is in the galaxy. When you warp your ship levels out with the galaxy's different variant (and pre setup) planes to ensure exact warping. Otherwise your ship may end up inside one of our non-orbiting planets or moons!
There ... solved ...
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