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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.26 20:31:00 -
[1]
As the thread I was writing this for was locked as I typed it, I wanted to post it to a new thread to give it the opportunity for discussion.
We're getting a room with the vague promise of more in the coming months. Putting aside that stale and empty marketing line, has anyone noticed the extremely vague and nebulous plans for what comes next? I hear bars and shops ...
But for discussion's sake only, let's assume that they actually implement some of the oft touted feature of ~future eve~ .. clothing shops, bars, etc. Physical locales that operate like businesses will really only thrive in locations with mass population. Thus there would be very little reason to build a bar in the vast majority of stations. Though I admit the agent change is an outlier of CCP's effort to smooth out the population in order to give these Incarna businesses some snowball's chance at relevance.
The Eve economic model of commodities and trade hubs is a complete mismatch for the second-life-esque individualized item and social locale dream that is Icarna. Has anyone actually ever searched for items in Second Life? Providing a means for players to find your "SooperCaps are HAWT" tank top shop is a logistical nightmare ... hundreds and thousands of shops at different stations all with different items. And CCP just said that the old mission system was too complex.
Incarna stealing the development focus from the core features of Eve is bad enough .. the insulting lies of what Incarna could be are just icing on the cake.
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Metal Icarus
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.26 20:47:00 -
[2]
Maybe they could turn boosters into a mini game? (Dead space 2 style)
Gotta hit the right vein with the needle or you get more side effects, or worse, your arm explodes into a bloody cloud and you tracking goes negative.
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Fred Barbossa
Free Mineral Collective
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Posted - 2011.05.26 20:51:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Fred Barbossa on 26/05/2011 20:51:18
Originally by: Metal Icarus Maybe they could turn boosters into a mini game? (Dead space 2 style)
Gotta hit the right vein with the needle or you get more side effects, or worse, your arm explodes into a bloody cloud and you tracking goes negative.
I'm sure that will make great gameplay at the points where people actually use boosters, like when you need that extra rep to not die we'll just throw up a 60 second mini game hope your ships still there when the fight finishes and that you didn't have to drag boosters to your myrm/maelstrom.
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.26 20:53:00 -
[4]
Further issues:
If there are customizable items that enterprising Incarnites can create and sell, then as I noted the search engine for shop listings is a nightmare. Do you you allow individuals to custom create ads. Do we even approach the topic of ad placement in the search? SL has controversies of payment for higher ad placement. There is also controversies around traffic counts to determine ad placement .. imagine - a whole new use for those alts and bots.
Alternately, CCP could avoid these headahces and not move from a primarily commodity economy. But then they're just reinventing an avatar-based market and chat space ... hardly the innovation to end all innovations.
I imagine that the second alternative is the reality .. a rather pointless social space with the promise of mini-games or somesuch to give it some purpose ... though that brings us back to the CCP's iteration track record.
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Metal Icarus
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.05.26 20:54:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Metal Icarus on 26/05/2011 20:53:58
Originally by: Fred Barbossa Edited by: Fred Barbossa on 26/05/2011 20:51:18
Originally by: Metal Icarus Maybe they could turn boosters into a mini game? (Dead space 2 style)
Gotta hit the right vein with the needle or you get more side effects, or worse, your arm explodes into a bloody cloud and you tracking goes negative.
I'm sure that will make great gameplay at the points where people actually use boosters, like when you need that extra rep to not die we'll just throw up a 60 second mini game hope your ships still there when the fight finishes and that you didn't have to drag boosters to your myrm/maelstrom.
IT AINT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART!
Needle use lvl 5: 25% accuracy and speed to hit vein per lvl. Level 2 skill.
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Calathea Sata
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.05.26 20:57:00 -
[6]
Look at CCP's track record.
Project it into the future.
Foresee the lolfailcascade.
Notice the reason they are making World of Darkness.
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Palovana
Caldari Inner Fire Inc.
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yakov Pavlov As the thread I was writing this for was locked as I typed it, I wanted to post it to a new thread to give it the opportunity for discussion.
We're getting a room with the vague promise of more in the coming months. Putting aside that stale and empty marketing line, has anyone noticed the extremely vague and nebulous plans for what comes next? I hear bars and shops ...
But for discussion's sake only, let's assume that they actually implement some of the oft touted feature of ~future eve~ .. clothing shops, bars, etc. Physical locales that operate like businesses will really only thrive in locations with mass population. Thus there would be very little reason to build a bar in the vast majority of stations. Though I admit the agent change is an outlier of CCP's effort to smooth out the population in order to give these Incarna businesses some snowball's chance at relevance.
The Eve economic model of commodities and trade hubs is a complete mismatch for the second-life-esque individualized item and social locale dream that is Icarna. Has anyone actually ever searched for items in Second Life? Providing a means for players to find your "SooperCaps are HAWT" tank top shop is a logistical nightmare ... hundreds and thousands of shops at different stations all with different items. And CCP just said that the old mission system was too complex.
Incarna stealing the development focus from the core features of Eve is bad enough .. the insulting lies of what Incarna could be are just icing on the cake.
Buy remotely from anywhere within region based on your current market skills, and then set up a courier contract to have your stuffs delivered? Of course you'd never have to leave your pod if it worked that way.
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Henry Haphorn
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:11:00 -
[8]
Well, it is rather vague on the part of CCP in regards to the in-station economics of Eve. I mean, we know there is not gonna be much difference in terms of how regular transactions (buying ships, mods and ammo) are made. But of course, there are many questions regarding special transactions that probably won't usually appear in the market window (bars, strip joints - hopefully, smuggling of boosters, etc.)
But I do remember the old Incarna demos featured in one of the prior Fanfests that showcased the interior of a Gallente station and its CQ. But of course, that was before they had to scrap it and redo it in order to implement the new Carbon architecture. But that doesn't mean that old models and works won't see the light of day. Who knows. Maybe that old Gallente CQ we saw earlier has become part of the later expansions of Incarna just like how the new Character Re-customization feature has been slowly implemented in Incursion expansions.
Originally by: Yakov Pavlov Incarna stealing the development focus from the core features of Eve is bad enough
And what core features would those be? Flying internet spaceships? Manipulating and cornering the market? Trade/contract scams? Shady deals? Perhaps all of the above. In that case, Incarna is not stealing from the core features of Eve since it is reinforcing the features that make Eve great. Shady, back-alley deals, expanding the market to include bars and other products and services, and the possibility (I hope to God this is true) of being able to kill someone in the stations if they are not careful.
Quote: the insulting lies of what Incarna could be are just icing on the cake.
How do you know they are lies? Also, have you not paid close attention during their last Fanfest presentations when they mentioned that certain features (example: shooting someone in the face in the station)"might" be included? Even though they clearly dreamed of having said feature.
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Henry Haphorn
And what core features would those be?
Ahem, the promised iterations and ongoing development of the current features set: FW, WHs, the long promised Industry expansion .. take your pick. Are you seriously implying that CCP has exhausted space based content?!
Originally by: Henry Haphorn
How do you know they are lies?
Experience ....
But apart from the snark. I seriously challenge anyone to lay out a plausible plan for these Incarna functions ... Seriously, I see tons of rabid praise for CQ, ANYONE have any idea how these things would work with the existing game? Care to share? To date, I've seen ZERO serious thought or discussion on where this is going.
Social spaces like bars would really only offer a different interface for the current in-station trade window. Perhaps CCP would require that you use it for "black market goods." These social spaces ... bars and strip clubs .. heh .. how many per station? player owned? Can players be employed in them? CCP must have avatar gesture system ready to go then. How bout user created emotes and gestures?
As for item shops, if its taken CCP years to create 3D, I can't imagine how long it would take to iron out a user content/item creation system.
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Henry Haphorn
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:27:00 -
[10]
Quote: Ahem, the promised iterations and ongoing development of the current features set: FW, WHs, the long promised Industry expansion .. take your pick. Are you seriously implying that CCP has exhausted space based content?!
Promised iterations and ongoing development? You call those core features?
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:31:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Yakov Pavlov on 26/05/2011 21:32:40
Originally by: Henry Haphorn
Quote: Ahem, the promised iterations and ongoing development of the current features set: FW, WHs, the long promised Industry expansion .. take your pick. Are you seriously implying that CCP has exhausted space based content?!
Promised iterations and ongoing development? You call those core features?
In a word, yes .. what game have you been playing? Does it have spaceships in it?
And I see from your post that you, like many here have not a single shred of an idea of how things would work .. nor can you refute that the half-baked notions tossed around do not mesh with the commodity based market that IS the eve economy.
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Calathea Sata
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.05.26 21:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Henry Haphorn
Quote: Ahem, the promised iterations and ongoing development of the current features set: FW, WHs, the long promised Industry expansion .. take your pick. Are you seriously implying that CCP has exhausted space based content?!
Promised iterations and ongoing development? You call those core features?
I think you are not making any sense?
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.27 12:03:00 -
[13]
Seems like people are being willfully ignorant of the potential problems with Incarna .. where are the Incarna fanbois? If Incanra is gonna rock then why can't anyone talk this through to a conclusion that isn't either detrimental to Eve or pointless to existing Eve gameplay?
Economics of a bar ... i.e. how does an owner make isk to recoup the isk sunk into it?
-Drinks? Heh, nothing more than a prop. Why would anyone ever buy one?
-A percentage of some sort of black market trading? Flat rate for every bar? Then what distinguishes one bar from another? More than one bar in a station ... why pick one over another? Percentage set by owner? Then how does a pilot find this info? An addition to the market screen? Cuts the immersion factor of Incarna and really begs the question of why it would need to be done in person.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.05.27 12:23:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Yakov Pavlov has anyone noticed the extremely vague and nebulous plans for what comes next? I hear bars and shops ...
I already read a few times it's the contraband "smuggling in stations" thing. Not heard about bars or shops or pets/cats or anything.
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
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Posted - 2011.05.27 15:10:00 -
[15]
tl;dr:
1. OP has no idea what Incarna will be like beyond captains quarters. 2. OP imagines it will be like second life. 3. OP says Second life is a nightmare. 4. QED, Incarna is bad.
"Here's your sign..."
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.27 15:34:00 -
[16]
Your powers of refutation .. er I mean association ... er I mean slur are truly impressive.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2011.05.27 15:39:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 27/05/2011 15:45:40 The SL economy is quite different from Eve. With out going into a lot of pointless tangents - Nothing indicates CCP is going to allow Eve players to create content and then sell that content in-game. The vast majority of SL content is player created, all of the artistic content in Eve is produced by CCP. The only things ever created outside CCP art department was the recent ship contest, and those designs will be greatly modified by CCP to their vision.
My guess is, if you want to buy Caldari XYZ vanity item, you dock at an Caldari faction NPC corp station and buy it, or buy it off some CCP web interface from any where in-game.
CCP will have every incentive to make purchase of in-game vanity items easy and widely available. Linden Labs has no such concern with regards to SL, their business model is quite different from CCPs.
edit: I will add this cavet - If CCP does something like rent store fronts to players, for bars and such things, and "rents" them for AUR, which has a direct real world cost via plex, and that there is not a fixed AUR-ISK exchange rate - then all bets are off.
The Real Space Initiative - V7
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.27 16:07:00 -
[18]
Thanks Adunh ... finally a real response.
My concern over "Icarna is cool .. we could run shops, bars and strip clubs ..." is that there is little thought put forward as to how that would work.
The SL analogy is not exact but it's informative. If vanity items are all the product of CCP then it simplifies alot of things. But then it makes Incarna little more than dress-up for now. There is no gameplay there .. only glitter.
As for storefronts and bars, this is from CCP Zulu's Dev Blog, " Through the course of this entire year we will roll out more content, more rooms and more functionality and by the end of this year you could be trading contraband goods in seedy bars. Or running seedy bars. Who are we to judge?"
I know this is pie-in-the-sky talk. But CCP could be more forth coming about what functionality is planned. I doubt they will anytime soon. It serves their purposes to be vague for a variety of reasons ranging from competence to actually produce to the more nefarious theories in the MT threads.
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