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CCP, are you aware of PLEX causing asymetry?

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Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.28 17:41:00 - [1] If I buy a GTC and apply that thing to my account the days will be added to my remaining gametime. This means they get used and vanish. Doesn't matter if I'm logged in or not. With PLEX on the other hand you broke this and caused a headache for your accountants and a speculation bubble/stockpile ingame. Congratulation! I bet those problems would vanish as soon as you'd put an expiration date onto those PLEX. PS: AURUM won't save this problem as it's the same old wine in new tubes. Congratulations again! Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Tara Haklar Minmatar Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:04:00 - [2] Converting GTC to PLEX is exactly the same as if you put it directly into your account... convert, GTC gets used and vanished. .. or are you saying CCP doesn't get the money until someone uses the PLEX?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:05:00 - [3] Putting an expiration date on PLEX would be... how should I put this... problematic. Considering the current inventory system (which is unlikely to be overhauled in a way to make this possible), you can not have "stackable" items (i.e. able to be sold on the market) with any personalized attributes, so if you want to make PLEX be able to expire at some point, the only way to trade them would be via contracts, and each of them would occupy one inventory "slot" since you would never be able to stack them. AUR might not completely solve the problem of PLEX stockpiling, or it might, who knows... but what it certainly will do is alleviate it a bit. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Tres Farmer CCP, are you aware of PLEX causing asymetry? The looks of the Moa and the scary growth on the Omen, it's all the plexes' fault!!
Wacktopia Dark Side Of The Womb	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:15:00 - [5] When someone buys a plex or a GTC the cach goes to CCP. The plex cannot be converted back into your cash. As far as CCP are concerned they have you money in return for "something" in game. Whether that is instant game time or a plex or a new hair cut or what ever, it doesn't matter.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:21:00 - [6] Edited by: Tres Farmer on 28/05/2011 18:22:13 Originally by: Tara Haklar Converting GTC to PLEX is exactly the same as if you put it directly into your account... convert, GTC gets used and vanished. .. or are you saying CCP doesn't get the money until someone uses the PLEX? PLEX in your hangar don't rot away or vanish. You can (so far) use them years later and enjoy 30days of gametime. Try that with an applied GTC. As long as everyone was applying only gametime to their gametime accounts CCP didn't had to worry about liabilities in form of gametime that hasn't been applied (read PLEX) on players accounts. If that is such a problem for CCP (according to one QEN) and their accountants have such a headache about it, they should look for ways to reduce those stockpiles. But AURUM wont help with that. Stockpiles are there, because they: 1) can be accumulated 2) serve as a savings account You wont be able to offer those savings-account holders much in that AURUM-shop, so that they would part with a remarkable amount of their stockpiles of safety. If ISK-buyers have to go through the AURUM shop offers and then through the ingame market to find the best PLEX/ISK conversion ratio you got a problem. At the start it might work as the VIs will be new and prices for them high.. but after a while, when the noblesse is gone most will go back and sell PLEX and people won't bother much with VIs. Maybe that's just enough to keep the amount of PLEX from rising.. dunno. Sounds fishy. And as pointed out, the stockpilers will keep stockpiling. They just drive out the poor guy who now has to fork out 500-600M/PLEX. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Tara Haklar Minmatar Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:33:00 - [7] When you convert a GTC into a PLEX, it becomes an in-game item. and therefore does not matter how long it sits there. Money has changed hands already, booking shouldn't have a problem keeping track of that. But I get it, you're just afraid PLEX prices are going to skyrocket, and you won't be able to get them super cheap anymore.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Tara Haklar Money has changed hands already, booking shouldn't have a problem keeping track of that. They don't have a problem keeping track of it. They just don't like the fact that they have to "reserve" resources for the day those obligations might be cashed in without the corresponding new money influx. Accounting doesn't like the liabilities column to go too high in total. They start freaking out. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Taross Caldari Laurentson INC	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:40:00 - [9] What we should do, as current players, is all stockpile two or three plexes. Then, if CCP does something that ****es us off for whatever random reason, we all (or, at least in large amounts) cancel any cash payments we make to keep our accounts running and pay by plex for a bit. Wouldn't acomplish much, but would sure as hell get CCP to look at PLEXes again.... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.28 18:46:00 - [10] Edited by: Akita T on 28/05/2011 18:46:52 Originally by: Taross What we should do, as current players, is all stockpile two or three plexes. Then, if CCP does something that ****es us off for whatever random reason, we all (or, at least in large amounts) cancel any cash payments we make to keep our accounts running and pay by plex for a bit. Wouldn't acomplish much, but would sure as hell get CCP to look at PLEXes again.... What makes you think this is not more or less a very similar reason why what you see happening now is actually happening ? While some people might indeed stockpile larger quantities of PLEX, CCP is far more worried about many different pilots on CC or other recurring subs stockpiling smaller quantities of PLEX, and what would happen if one day a lot of them might decide to cancel the recurring sub and keep playing via PLEX only. P.S. I have to agree with Tres Farmer here though - AUR is most likely not going to solve THAT particular worry CCP has, since AUR will most likely be mainly created from the larger stockpiles of PLEX rather than the individually smaller ones. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.05.28 19:06:00 - [11] Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 28/05/2011 19:08:00 "Plexes piling up"-problem can be solved without expiration date too... if we remove possibility to invest to plexes in 1st place, they will only be used to extend game time. This can be done by binding the plex to account when it is bought from market with isk or traded, looted or contracted to another player. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.05.28 19:25:00 - [12] The original post in this thread is horrible btw. Anyway, expiration dates on plex would require a new market syetms and more, its not happening any time soon because it would require paying devs to do something besides beta test "Metrosexual Vampire Fashion Parade Online." Wherever you went - Here you are.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.05.28 19:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Tres Farmer If I buy a GTC and apply that thing to my account the days will be added to my remaining gametime. This means they get used and vanish. Doesn't matter if I'm logged in or not. With PLEX on the other hand you broke this and caused a headache for your accountants and a speculation bubble/stockpile ingame. Congratulation! I bet those problems would vanish as soon as you'd put an expiration date onto those PLEX. PS: AURUM won't save this problem as it's the same old wine in new tubes. Congratulations again! Warren Buffet finds this sort of business model extremely attractive. He call's it "float" (in regards to his insurance companies) where premiums get paid in advance but even if the payout ratio is eventually 100% or 100% of premiums (most commom although with GEICO he's actually made an operating profit of 95% for decades which is highly unusual in the insurance world) the money is prepaid and he gets use of the funds for investment during the time between sales and ultimate customer payout. He has raved about this sort of advantage in companies like Amerian Express who's business in the 1970's in his first go roundwith them consisted largely of selling Travelers Checks ...where people would buy the checks an redeem them as they traveled ...they'd often not spend them all and have hundreds of dollars left in those checks for years which American Express could use in the meantime to expand their company. His 1960's purchase of Blue Chip Stamp company, was a huge moment in his early finacial success . Trading stamp promotions were a core retail promotion at the time and peole had the choice to trade those stamps in for goods or cash. (blue chip was used across huge numers of business and a preffered standard) . Retailers would pay blue chip for the promotion and on paper blue chip had a huge liablity beyond , but buffet was able to buy the company with a load of cash far larger than his investement ammount and was able to use that money for larger investments and far less than 100% of the stamps were ever redeemed. The opposite type of businesss is far more common. Most growth requires working capital, or investment much larger up front that yearly profits. Wages requires pai in advance insurance payments.. banks require deposits or expensive credit lines a certain percentage of montly payouts . Trucking companies need to buy trucks to grow and pay for them with profits over their years of utitlity. The having subscriptions paid in advance is an advantageuos business model from a finacial perspective and a larger amount from the working capital player businesses (those who trade plex) will grow more quickly than the time is used. Many of these will sit unused indefinitely. The thing that takes away slightly from the advantage is that conceivably they would have been better off selling isk from thin air and thus avoided any liablity altogether. For various reasons, most importantly the magnitude of the $ to isk transactions, it is important to drain isk from the economy in close relation to the isk pumped in via any such sales. Their chosen methon of balancing linking isk to playtime and limmiting $ to isk transactions to the demand of ISK to playtime amount, is pretty elegant. In addition to the "float" ... the uses of funds for the difference in time between the sale for $ and the ultimate use of the game prepaid game time, a very large percentage of that game time use is by players for 3 rd and 4th accounts which re-present a re-allocation of those players game time, not an icrease in the time spend online, and thus an increase in variable costs. Truly, the variable cost to CCP of another subscriber is far below the $15 amount (most costs going to development, executive , human resources, etc with only a fraction going to types of hardware infrastructure that would need to roughly grow with the subscriber base).
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.05.28 19:40:00 - [14] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 28/05/2011 19:42:51 I had a thought. Everyone talking about liability of plex on the "books". Another way to consider whether or not it is a liability of not could be: The liability ends with the GTC. Once converted to game time or plex the liability is satisfied. Beyond GTC it's purely speculation that there is any more liability. The fact that plex can be used as game time could merely be honoring 'a' purpose for plex (i.e. 30days of game time). CCP may have no contractual obligation at all. In fact, I don't remember any contract on the occasions that I've purchased plex. Then again, I've never purchased GTC so I wouldn't know if there was any "agreement" when purchasing them. But I would assume there is an agreement defining exactly what you get when you purchase a GTC. I actually think I like this hypothesis as it solves a number of conundrums about plex. So, from here on out any considerations of plex as a continuing liability, promoting the use of plex for this that and everything to remove it off the "books", imo, is pure poppy****.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.05.28 19:53:00 - [15] A Tl/dr for my comments above. Selling a gift certificate is a great deal for a retailer. They get $ in advance of any sale. Depending on the industry, most items (other than food) hae large mark-ups between wholesale cost and retail price. A clothing company typically has costs per itme of 35% of the eventual sales price. A pre-sale locks in a future profit for the most part. A certain percntage of the certificates get lost or stolen.. maybe 10% ? That reduces the cost to lower than the face value . Many of the certificates are given to people who might not otherwise shop at the store creating a net increse in sales over what sales would have been without the certificate option. People with certificates , by quirks of human nature, value them in ways more associated with "windfalls" and are less frugal with them than they'd be with $ ... they're more liketly to use them in an impulse manner often on items with the highest margins
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.28 20:01:00 - [16] Originally by: Mr Kidd The liability ends with the GTC. Once converted to game time or plex the liability is satisfied. Well, at least we agree GTCs are a "financial liability". Once converted to gametime, yes, it's (soon) gone. Once converted to PLEX, no, not gone (yet), or at least, not REALLY gone. Once PLEX is converted to AUR, yup, gone again. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.05.28 20:23:00 - [17] Originally by: Akita T Once converted to PLEX, no, not gone (yet), or at least, not REALLY gone. Yes, agreed, but contractually obligated? I'm thinking plex for 30 days is honorary, not contractual. They are purchased with isk...it's not currency. GTC contract details? I'm guessing it's going to say can be converted to game time or plex....I would love to see one of those agreements.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.05.28 21:27:00 - [18] The distinction is at best academic. If CCP would ever NOT honour applying a PLEX to get +30 days of gametime, what do you think would happen ? _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Gimpb Fusion Enterprises Ltd	Posted - 2011.05.28 21:36:00 - [19] It's not a headache or a liability, they can run a query and know exactly how many are out there. I'm sure their accountants have much more challenging issues and this is worth it for them because they get the money now and don't have to pay for it until later which is preferable.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.05.28 22:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Gimpb It's not a headache or a liability, they can run a query and know exactly how many are out there. I'm sure their accountants have much more challenging issues and this is worth it for them because they get the money now and don't have to pay for it until later which is preferable. Didnt they tell you - being aware of a liability doesnt stop it from being a liability. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.05.28 22:18:00 - [21] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 28/05/2011 22:18:24 Originally by: Akita T The distinction is at best academic. If CCP would ever NOT honour applying a PLEX to get +30 days of gametime, what do you think would happen ? People would stop buying plex obviously. But there is a great chasm between liability on the books and honoring a game feature. Being an honorary feature like EVERY feature of this game means their motivations where plex is concerned is quite different than if it were a contractual obligation and accounting liability. It gets a step further in understand what to expect with plex and MT.
ivar R'dhak Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.28 23:07:00 - [22] They are MONITORING! And doc Ejyo already mentioned that the market has selfregulated down from the peak at 450 yesterday. So I¦m giving it the benefit of the doubt and wait how it all looks next week. ______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.28 23:46:00 - [23] I don't see the problem with PLEX Accumulation in the first place. It is for CCP, effectually free revenue. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Mars Theran Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.28 23:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 28/05/2011 19:08:00 "Plexes piling up"-problem can be solved without expiration date too... if we remove possibility to invest to plexes in 1st place, they will only be used to extend game time. This can be done by binding the plex to account when it is bought from market with isk or traded, looted or contracted to another player. I hate bind to account/character items. (well.. don't hate exactly, but don't neccessarily like.) First problem with this approach is that you pay money for something that is suddenly less useful, yet costs the same. The second problem, is that you can't get rid of it later, except by trashing it, selling it for next to nothing to an NPC, or the like. Granted, most of those reasons don't apply to PLEX, but who knows where it will be applied next. Custom Brutix anyone? Plexes pile up because huge alliances have ton's of excess ISK they can use for investing in items that have predictable peak value periods. When the value goes up, they sell them, if things get a little rough along the way, look! Spare game time. Winning scenario if you ask me. Are these stockpiled PLEX ever going to become a problem for the accountants? No, because they are all owned by one entity, and those people are selfish. They are not going to be handed out like wafers at Mass, and they certainly won't be converted to AUR for mass Alliance uniform purchases. Although the latter would actually help with this scenario.
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.05.29 00:07:00 - [25] Originally by: Mars Theran I hate bind to account/character items. (well.. don't hate exactly, but don't neccessarily like.) First problem with this approach is that you pay money for something that is suddenly less useful, yet costs the same. The second problem, is that you can't get rid of it later, except by trashing it, selling it for next to nothing to an NPC, or the like. Granted, most of those reasons don't apply to PLEX, but who knows where it will be applied next. Custom Brutix anyone? Yes I definately would not like to see any binding with any actual in game item. PLEX however is 30 days of game time and playing investment game with such is bit hazardous for ccp. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.05.29 01:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Originally by: Mars Theran I hate bind to account/character items. (well.. don't hate exactly, but don't neccessarily like.) First problem with this approach is that you pay money for something that is suddenly less useful, yet costs the same. The second problem, is that you can't get rid of it later, except by trashing it, selling it for next to nothing to an NPC, or the like. Granted, most of those reasons don't apply to PLEX, but who knows where it will be applied next. Custom Brutix anyone? Yes I definately would not like to see any binding with any actual in game item. PLEX however is 30 days of game time and playing investment game with such is bit hazardous for ccp. Why exactly? ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Scarlet des Loupes Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2011.05.29 01:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Grey Stormshadow Yes I definately would not like to see any binding with any actual in game item. PLEX however is 30 days of game time and playing investment game with such is bit hazardous for ccp. it depends how you cope with it, financially. If you put it in the books as game time payed for there's no problem, if you see it as extra income that can or can not be used for subscription (income loss) it's a risk.
Grey Stormshadow Starwreck Industries	Posted - 2011.05.29 01:27:00 - [28] Edited by: Grey Stormshadow on 29/05/2011 01:29:06 Yes this is pretty much the problem. Plex is prepaid game time which may or may not be used in next year, 5 years or 10 years. It may or may not affect peoples decissions to cancel their subscriptions during next 12 month period. The ingame price of plex may or may not crash. The fact that plex is directly linked to subscriptions (as it is generally same thing), ccp's real world income is somewhat tied to in game market. Of course this is most likely the main reason why ccp has kept the option to interfere if something really fishy happens with plex ingame value. Also this is the reason why I would rather see plex as exclusive item, which could be traded (with or without isk) only once to prevent the manipulation. ------------------------------------------------- Play with the best - die like the rest starwreck.com - support the cause :)
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.05.29 01:47:00 - [29] I don't think anyone pointed this out yet but you misspelled asymmetry. That kind of error right off the bat is kind of distracting and makes me think you may not be too bright Originally by: Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
DeODokktor Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2011.05.29 02:06:00 - [30] Lets see. For GTC sold as GTC. Dear Accountants, we sold GTC's, add it to the books. For GTC sold as PLEX. Dear Accountants, we sold GTC's, add it to the books. Ouch, yea, I can see that major issue there. Try spending 3 years and court action to get royalty payments from a major company, you'll understand how much they like selling products and not delivering outbounds. If ccp sells a GTC that gets turned into a plex that takes 3 years to get cashed, then that means they have been able to sit on that investment for 3 years. Not sure how you see this as a problem, If it was my buisness I'd be rubbing my hands together for this. The only other thing you could do to really get that product out of game and earn money out of it would be to perhaps find some disaster and donate the codes. Each code (once converted to logical currency) should provide them anywhere from 20-40% on a tax break, so now they can sell a code, never deliver the service, have someone buy the code ingame and give it back to them, they change it back to currency, donate it, and get a tax break off of it. But hey, Perhaps the accountants do dislike it all. ----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! !

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