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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
okst666
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Posted - 2011.06.03 20:35:00 -
[1]
Another one...
I like to have my filesystem cleaned up...so I run AusLogics DiscDefrag from time to time, because it has a pretty visualitzation, what it is doing and how the fragmentation look..
I allways run it before major patches, because I want to believe that the patch process will work faster than with a cluttered filesystem.
However, AFTER patching eve the filesystem is totaly ****ed up and every file that has to do with eve is clustered and scattered over the whole harddrive.
WHAT THE **** is happening here?
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Sarmatiko
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Posted - 2011.06.03 20:49:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Sarmatiko on 03/06/2011 20:50:17 1. making copy of old file in unallocated space 2. patching copy 3. deleting old file and freeing previously allocated space 4. you see OMGWTFEMPTYSPACEONDISCMAP!!!, but seriously this "problem" is not even worth the whine, because defragmentation of EVE client is unnecesary.
ps: throw away DiscDefrag, use MyDefrag instead
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okst666
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Posted - 2011.06.03 20:54:00 -
[3]
I am not whining, I just want to know whats happening.
And what you said, might be right in terms of what is happening, but from my view it is not what "patching" should be..
Patching is directly modifying files, bytewise. No backup, no copy. Everything else is an update or upgrade, which replaces files if neccessary.
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Sarmatiko
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:09:00 -
[4]
CCP is using RTPatch just as hundreds other companies in the industry using this solution for their games since first Doom. I really don't see any problem here other than simple nitpicking.
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okst666
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:12:00 -
[5]
Edited by: okst666 on 03/06/2011 21:14:50 Edited by: okst666 on 03/06/2011 21:13:26 Only because hundreds of other companies are using it, does not make it good...
Like BingVideo...everyone is using it...and its crap! Or let us say: there is plenty of better...!
edit: ccp: please remove the report button.. I did not want to report his posting..I just wanted to reply..
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Florestan Bronstein
draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:15:00 -
[6]
defrag the disk before patching - all files are neatly aligned.
file sizes increase/decrease during patching -> fragmentation.
solution: defrag after patching
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Hylax Ciai
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:17:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Hylax Ciai on 03/06/2011 21:18:04
Originally by: okst666
Only because hundreds of other companies are using it, does not make it good...
Actually, it kinda does. Because the software is well tested by thousands of users.
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Sarmatiko
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:18:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Sarmatiko on 03/06/2011 21:21:24
Originally by: okst666 Only because hundreds of other companies are using it, does not make it good... Like BingVideo...everyone is using it...and its crap!
Quote: Activision, Atari, Bethesda Softworks, BioWare, Blizzard Entertainment, Bungie Studios, CCP Games, Electronic Arts, Gearbox Software, id Software, NC Soft, Reakktor, Rockstar Games, Sega, Ubisoft, Zenimax
You probably played their games before and definitely used RTP patches many many times (of course if you not living under the rock for 20 years).
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okst666
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:34:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sarmatiko Edited by: Sarmatiko on 03/06/2011 21:21:24
Originally by: okst666 Only because hundreds of other companies are using it, does not make it good... Like BingVideo...everyone is using it...and its crap!
Quote: Activision, Atari, Bethesda Softworks, BioWare, Blizzard Entertainment, Bungie Studios, CCP Games, Electronic Arts, Gearbox Software, id Software, NC Soft, Reakktor, Rockstar Games, Sega, Ubisoft, Zenimax
You probably played their games before and definitely used RTP patches many many times (of course if you not living under the rock for 20 years).
except of eveonline I play console games only...so I might have been missing some of the evolution of pc game development in general and their patch deployment in special..but none the less...an eve online patch disorders my filesystem pretty much...and I do not want that. <-period. Patch the files directly and have a 5% fragmented harddrive does not compare to copy file, patch it there, delete the old and replace it with the other and have 90% harddrive clutter.
However I will have to live with that and I am not happy about it...
/thread
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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:38:00 -
[10]
So your upset about something that has zero impact on your actual ability to play the game and/or the performance of the game in general?
Ladies and Gentleman we have our newest low for the eve player base!
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okst666
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:42:00 -
[11]
Edited by: okst666 on 03/06/2011 21:43:30
Originally by: Sader Rykane So your upset about something that has zero impact on your actual ability to play the game and/or the performance of the game in general?
Ladies and Gentleman we have our newest low for the eve player base!
It might not keep my from playing, but it distracts me in something of a higher order...something like integrity of my harddrives filesytem...
edit1: UNDERSTAND: IT IS NOT ABOUT EVEONLINE, IT IS ABOUT HOW IT RUINS MY FILESYSTEMS ORDER!!!! I WANT THINGS IN PLACE... GAME PATCH DOES NOT!
edit: I totally know that it is totally uninteressting if my harddrive is cluttered or not and it doesnt matter at all, BUT I WANT IT IN ORDER !!!!
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:42:00 -
[12]
I understand the theory behind fragmentation and how files are written but not the exact mechanics as it can differ per hardware and OS. Something different about the Incursion 1.6 patch that may be causing this is it was more of an "update" than a "patch" as you mentioned earlier. Many old files for the UI were replaced with the new CarbonUI and this may be the result of the apparent fragmentation.
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP NA, EVE Online Contact Us |
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Breaker77
Gallente Reclamation Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: okst666
Patch the files directly and have a 5% fragmented harddrive does not compare to copy file, patch it there, delete the old and replace it with the other and have 90% harddrive clutter.
You could always ask CCP to delete your boot.ini. Then once you reinstall windows and EVE there will be zero fragmentation.
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Hylax Ciai
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:44:00 -
[14]
Quote:
except of eveonline I play console games only...so I might have been missing some of the evolution of pc game development in general and their patch deployment in special..but none the less...an eve online patch disorders my filesystem pretty much...and I do not want that. <-period.
Just saying that the filesystem of a game console gets fragmented as easy as a pc filesystem.
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okst666
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: okst666 on 03/06/2011 21:46:26 Edited by: okst666 on 03/06/2011 21:46:03
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist I understand the theory behind fragmentation and how files are written but not the exact mechanics as it can differ per hardware and OS. Something different about the Incursion 1.6 patch that may be causing this is it was more of an "update" than a "patch" as you mentioned earlier. Many old files for the UI were replaced with the new CarbonUI and this may be the result of the apparent fragmentation.
nonono that cluttering allways happend...with all the patches.. However - I understand that I am in the minority so I have to adapt.
Originally by: Hylax Ciai
Quote:
except of eveonline I play console games only...so I might have been missing some of the evolution of pc game development in general and their patch deployment in special..but none the less...an eve online patch disorders my filesystem pretty much...and I do not want that. <-period.
Just saying that the filesystem of a game console gets fragmented as easy as a pc filesystem.
I know that, thank you.
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Major Failsauce
Caldari Covert Operations Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: okst666 Another one...
I like to have my filesystem cleaned up...so I run AusLogics DiscDefrag from time to time, because it has a pretty visualitzation, what it is doing and how the fragmentation look..
I allways run it before major patches, because I want to believe that the patch process will work faster than with a cluttered filesystem.
However, AFTER patching eve the filesystem is totaly ****ed up and every file that has to do with eve is clustered and scattered over the whole harddrive.
WHAT THE **** is happening here?
Nerd **** noone cares about. AMIRITE!?!?!!?!
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okst666
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Posted - 2011.06.03 21:53:00 -
[17]
:/
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.03 22:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: okst666 I WANT THINGS IN PLACE... GAME PATCH DOES NOT!
What you're asking for cannot be done.
Quote: BUT I WANT IT IN ORDER !!!!
Then defrag after the patch, not before. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Chril Crendraven
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Posted - 2011.06.03 22:16:00 -
[19]
Dude seriously?
Any file system action were files are deleted or replaced will cause fragmentation. It's how the file system works.
When you delete a file it doesn't go and scrub the disk clean and put everything back in order, that would take too long. Instead it just removes the sign that says "DON'T WRITE OVER ME" so other data can be written there. If nothing gets written there write away oh well.
File systems were being fragmented and defragged long before EVE came along.
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CCP Atropos
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Posted - 2011.06.03 22:36:00 -
[20]
You are correct in that a "clean" filesystem will be faster, but only in the sense that it's faster for a spindle based disk to read contiguous memory locations. If you're on an SSD it's largely irrelevant.
Furthermore, any filesystem access will be handled by your operating system; the patching software simply makes a call out to the OS's api's to read/write files. As such any fragmentation you're seeing is only natural.
As Zymurgist pointed out, the last patch, Carbon UI/Incursion 1.6, involved a massive amount of modifications. We changed the coordinate system used in all the files, so any file that uses coordinates, of which there are many, needs to be updated, usually at several places within that file.
Each of these files that we use, is actually combined into a larger file, called a Stuff file. You can see these files in the EVE install directory. They're basically archives, like a .zip or .rar, but without any compression. Since one of those files, which never exceeds 250MB in size, is then modified in many thousands of places (since it contains thousands of small files, each requiring several modifications) you can see why the new blocks are written haphazardly to disk.
At the end of the day the patching process, especially in this case will write many blocks to disk, which the OS then spreads across the filesystem. If you like a nice orderly filesystem then sure, defrag'ing is a good idea, but don't expect your filesystem to stay pristine when you're doing any large amount of file writing.
Software Engineer Core Engineering |
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okst666
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Posted - 2011.06.03 22:37:00 -
[21]
I know that.
I want a patch actually to patch..modify a file. That wont really change much in the filesystem, because the clusters are allready aligned. Todays harddrives have so huge clustersizes, a "patch" wont break their .. hm..dont know the right word..measurements.
Everything that does not bytewise modifies a file is not a patch...it is a replacement or update or something completly different. it is everything, but not a patch.
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CCP Atropos
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Posted - 2011.06.03 22:48:00 -
[22]
Originally by: okst666 I know that.
I want a patch actually to patch..modify a file. That wont really change much in the filesystem, because the clusters are allready aligned. Todays harddrives have so huge clustersizes, a "patch" wont break their .. hm..dont know the right word..measurements.
Everything that does not bytewise modifies a file is not a patch...it is a replacement or update or something completly different. it is everything, but not a patch.
Well in that case, no, that's not how our patcher works, and it's not something we're intending to add in. What you're suggesting is handled by the OS.
I do have one question though, if you have a file of, say, 20 bytes, and the "modification" process modifies 2 bytes and then adds in 10 more, giving a 30 byte final filesize, how does this process you desire handle the source file being blocked on either side. By that I mean the blocks immediately proceeding and following the source file are in use giving the file no room to "grow". Gaving the filesystem create a duplicate would be a lengthy process, and moving the other files around require potentially even more disk IO, so... in that light does the current method not work better?
Software Engineer Core Engineering |
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ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.03 23:13:00 -
[23]
OP, your indulging in your slight OCD with "clean filesystems" only leads to a slow descent to madness. Cease and desist before it really gets to you!
Or let MyDefrag worry about it.
______________ Mal-¦Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-`Big damn heroes, sir.` Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
pmchem
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.03 23:15:00 -
[24]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
I do have one question though, if you have a file of, say, 20 bytes, and the "modification" process modifies 2 bytes and then adds in 10 more, giving a 30 byte final filesize, how does this process you desire handle the source file being blocked on either side. By that I mean the blocks immediately proceeding and following the source file are in use giving the file no room to "grow". Gaving the filesystem create a duplicate would be a lengthy process, and moving the other files around require potentially even more disk IO, so... in that light does the current method not work better?
Geez Atropos if you're not creating a virtual FS with copy-on-write and precognition to run on top of NTFS, clearly you're doing it wrong!!
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Une Lin
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Posted - 2011.06.04 03:54:00 -
[25]
Someone should explain to the OP that patching does not mean modifying a file in place but replacing a file with a different file. The difference between patching and upgrading is that some of the data for the new file is read from the old file instead of being provided from the outside (incidentally this makes patching a file in-place much more difficult than upgrading it in-place because when patching you need the old file to exist intact until after the new file has been created).
Please nobody explain to the OP that the "order" that the defragmenter program shows him is just fake and in many cases data is not really laid out that way on the physical disk. It's "mostly" like that for magnetic disks but definitively not like that for anything solid state (SSD, USB keys etc.) or virtual (any kind of RAID, loopback device/virtual disk, remote file system or any modern virtual/logical volume-managed system).
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Ron Bacardi
SniggWaffe FREE KARTTOON NOW
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Posted - 2011.06.04 04:50:00 -
[26]
Holy **** seek psychiatric help
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Jack Tronic
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Posted - 2011.06.04 04:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 04/06/2011 04:57:18 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 04/06/2011 04:56:58
Originally by: okst666 Another one...
I like to have my filesystem cleaned up...so I run AusLogics DiscDefrag from time to time, because it has a pretty visualitzation, what it is doing and how the fragmentation look..
I allways run it before major patches, because I want to believe that the patch process will work faster than with a cluttered filesystem.
However, AFTER patching eve the filesystem is totaly ****ed up and every file that has to do with eve is clustered and scattered over the whole harddrive.
WHAT THE **** is happening here?
Basically when the files are nice and pretty, they are toe to toe, backside to backside, etc etc. No spare space in between. Now when eve "patches" file sizes change, files need more bytes added to them or bytes removed. When files are toe to toe due to a defragmenter, the operating system will automatically find a new place to put the file and this spot can be a fragment because of this, otherwise the file can't be modified because it's kind of wedged between other files.
Dumbest way I can think of to explain.
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Intimidating Carebear
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Posted - 2011.06.04 10:16:00 -
[28]
get an SSD,uninstall discdefrag. problem solve big time. lets move on, NEXT!
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Aeronwen Carys
Empire of Dust
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Posted - 2011.06.04 10:40:00 -
[29]
This is the stupidest thread I think I've ever seen on General Discussion, and that really is saying something.
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Skyla Kavatina
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Posted - 2011.06.04 10:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: okst666 I am not whining, I just want to know whats happening.
And what you said, might be right in terms of what is happening, but from my view it is not what "patching" should be..
Patching is directly modifying files, bytewise. No backup, no copy. Everything else is an update or upgrade, which replaces files if neccessary.
Anyone who patches without making a backup copy of the original files need their head examining.
The type of patching you are alluding to only really works with source code. Too many things can go wrong directly patching binaries.
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