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zx02	Posted - 2011.06.06 21:32:00 - [31] AFK cloaking need to fix . Just add cloak cycle. 30 min or 1 hour, or what you want CCP.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.06 21:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Sieona Savi What was the Reason for allowing the AFK cloakers to be undetectable, provided in the other thread? I am curious. Ask yourself why people AFK cloak? What is it that facilitates 'Psychological warfare', which is the whole point of AFKing? When you've understood the cause and not the effect, then you'll start to realise why simply nerfing cloaks, is an unbalanced approach.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.06 21:36:00 - [33] Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 06/06/2011 21:47:54 Originally by: Sieona Savi Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Martmos Kudos to t'raq for raising what is, despite all your completely useless comments hinting otherwise, a very real and, not that most of you would understand, intelligent issue. his thread is useless in the first line, so it deserves nothing but useless replies. Instead of reading the answers to his concerns in other existing threads, the f is opening another one, after being smacked in his other thread for his rtarded ideas. What was the Reason for allowing the AFK cloakers to be undetectable, provided in the other thread? I am curious. Nerf "cloaking nerf" threads in this forum. The reason is simple. Cloaking is undetectable because cloaks masks your signal well enough that it blends in with background radiation and star noise. You'd have as much change of detecting a volcano errupting on a planet aross the system than detecting a cloaked vessle. As for the hyothetically afk, it's no different than anything else.. you need to use the bathroom? you go and stay cloaked. now you could log and log back. but the process is cumbersome. Making cloaks undependable with artifical limits would cause problems for the non-afk cloakers who in my estimation are the true targets of these multi-threaded attacks. Fuel for cloaking? not eough cargo space to stealth 26 to 30 jumps through low and null sec to get to their target location, do whatever and, get back. Fuel gone, you are dead.. Timers on the cloak or the kludgy, type-in-the-code-to-stay-cloaked systems would cause problems in tight spots like trying to avoid gate camps and such. Quote:** Ask yourself why people AFK cloak? What is it that facilitates 'Psychological warfare', which is the whole point of AFKing? Here is the rub: "Nerf criers" like this one actually think the hypothetically afk are accomplishing something (he has no way to know if they are afk)..The truth is though there maybe some afk cloaking going on, it's not a problem..local is the problem in this scenario. With no local there is no way for you to be intimidated by an afk player - a player who you should never know is there in the first place. Cloaks should be there for stealthing into places so others never notice you. Local provides them with free intell that they should not have access to in the case of cloaking. Without the knowledge that they are there how is an afk cloaker accomplishing anything of value in game? He's not! Because they show up in local, cloaks need to stay the way they are. period.
Xonus Calimar CaeIum Incognitum	Posted - 2011.06.06 21:36:00 - [34] Every time someone makes an AFK cloak whine thread, God doesn't kill a kitten. He sits in an animal shelter, invisible, watching, waiting...
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.06 22:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Sieona Savi Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: Martmos Kudos to t'raq for raising what is, despite all your completely useless comments hinting otherwise, a very real and, not that most of you would understand, intelligent issue. his thread is useless in the first line, so it deserves nothing but useless replies. Instead of reading the answers to his concerns in other existing threads, the f is opening another one, after being smacked in his other thread for his rtarded ideas. What was the Reason for allowing the AFK cloakers to be undetectable, provided in the other thread? I am curious. Nerf "cloaking nerf" threads in this forum. The reason is simple. Cloaking is undetectable because cloaks masks your signal well enough that it blends in with background radiation and star noise. You'd have as much change of detecting a volcano errupting on a planet aross the system than detecting a cloaked vessel. As for the hyothetically afk, it's no different than anything else.. you need to use the bathroom? you go and stay cloaked. now you could log and log back. but the process is cumbersome. Making cloaks undependable with artifical limits would cause problems for the non-afk cloakers who in my estimation are the true targets of these multi-threaded attacks. Fuel for cloaking? not eough cargo space to stealth 26 to 30 jumps through low and null sec to get to their target location, do whatever, and get back. Fuel gone, you are dead.. Timers on the cloak or the kludgy, type-in-the-code-to-stay-cloaked systems would cause problems in tight spots like trying to avoid gate camps and such. Quote:** Ask yourself why people AFK cloak? What is it that facilitates 'Psychological warfare', which is the whole point of AFKing? Here is the rub: "Nerf criers" like this one actually think the hypothetically afk are accomplishing something (he has no way to know if they are afk)..The truth is though there maybe some afk cloaking going on; he really doesn't care about that as much as he says..he's after the cloakers intimadating act..which is existing, staying cloaked, and staying in system. AFK not the real problem here..local is the problem in this scenario. With no local there is no way for you to be intimidated by an afk player - a player who you should never know is there in the first place. Cloaks should be there for stealthing into places so others never notice you. Local provides others with free intell that they should not have access to in the case of cloaking. Without the knowledge that the cloaked are there how is an afk cloaker accomplishing anything of value in game against you? He's not! Because they show up in local, cloaks need to stay the way they are. period.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.06 22:37:00 - [36] Originally by: Martmos It's an easy way to ps off all those renters and carebears without risking anything. One problem: to actually them off, the cloaker has to risk something. If he doesn't, the renters and carebears have nothing to worry aboutà Quote: The issue here is the fact that cloaking is uncounterable. One problem: it's counterable. When safed up, cloaked and not moving, he has countered himself. When not doing that, simply locking him counters the cloak. Either way, having support counters it all. Quote: EVE is a game where everything has a counter. Yes. Even local. "AFK cloaking" is that counter, and thus can't really be messed with unless local gets a revamp as well. Want to "fix" AFK cloaking? Fix local, and the problem goes away. Quote: So plz tell me, why should AFK cloaking be any different? It's not. Quote: My problem lies in 2 other very distinct places. 1-That afk-cloakers don't actually play the game.. hence the AFK If they're AFK, they're completely harmless. Problem solved. Quote: First and foremost, one would have to work for it. The only situation when AFK:ers don't have to work for it right now is when the locals does all the work for him, rather than refuse to do so. That's their problem to solve, no the AFK:er's. Quote:** THERE IS NO COUNTER TO AN AFK-CLOAKER THAT DOES NOT WANT TO GET CAUGHT An AFK cloaker that does not want to get caught has already countered himself, so that statement is both false and irrelevant. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.06.06 23:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Sieona Savi What was the Reason for allowing the AFK cloakers to be undetectable, provided in the other thread? I am curious. a lot. read the threads if you're interested. Its pointless to write the same stuff over and over again.
Sieona Savi	Posted - 2011.06.06 23:29:00 - [38] Quote: Here is the rub: "Nerf criers" like this one actually think the hypothetically afk are accomplishing something (he has no way to know if they are afk)..The truth is though there maybe some afk cloaking going on; he really doesn't care about that as much as he says..he's after the cloakers intimadating act..which is existing, staying cloaked, and staying in system. AFK not the real problem here..local is the problem in this scenario. With no local there is no way for you to be intimidated by an afk player - a player who you should never know is there in the first place. Cloaks should be there for stealthing into places so others never notice you. Local provides others with free intell that they should not have access to in the case of cloaking. Without the knowledge that the cloaked are there how is an afk cloaker accomplishing anything of value in game against you? He's not! Because they show up in local, cloaks need to stay the way they are. period. First off thanks for bringing a good argument to the question here, I appreciate it. Secondly, I think that my question could then be rephrased to this: Is it fair to be able to detect a cloaked person in the system with probes or some other device? If they have the technology to cloak usually there is something that can counter that technology. (if you want to Roleplay a bit) I personally have no qualms with getting rid of Local. It would leave it to a much more senor needing environment. But I also think that to promote more player vs player interaction there should be a way to detect cloaking. If we had this ability, regardless of whether local is there or not would it stop the goals and the experience of eve or make it worse? If you are to provide psych warfare then wouldnÆt you be able to do it the same in any case. Make yourself shown or be in local or always be out there and making them have to devote resources to scanning? I just fail to see how eve is BETTER with the ability to afk cloak. Which is happening. So if AFK cloaking doesnÆt happen that much then you are telling me that us being able to slowly track you or at least know if you are there is something that would make your experience in eve worse? I would assert that everything a cloaking player wants to be able to accomplish can be done without having to be afk. Would you agree?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.07 00:37:00 - [39] Originally by: Sieona Savi I just fail to see how eve is BETTER with the ability to afk cloak. In two key ways that are somewhat interconnected: 1. It creates disinformation and intel ambiguity and disrupts the usefulness of local. 2. It's a key enabler of psychological warfare. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Tubares Shting	Posted - 2011.06.07 00:53:00 - [40] t'raq: you still have never posted with your main. Many of us have asked you for this information, and yet you still refuse to do it. The fact remains that the only reason afk cloaking bothers you is that you see someone in local who is hostile to you. I have a solution: Activating a cloak removes you from local. If the person is afk, then no h arm done. If the person is at their keyboard, then you are dead. As you should be. Problem solved. /thread
Bill Serkoff2	Posted - 2011.06.07 01:02:00 - [41] The reason you can't counter an AFK cloaker is because there's no counter to absolutely nothing at all.
SGT FUNYOUN Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.07 03:09:00 - [42] Originally by: t'raq mardon Also, I'm not saying that cloaks should be completely nerfed. YES YOU ARE... Just like every single one of the other cloak whiner carebears that have suggested this before you and been shot down. Allow me to demonstrate: AFK CLOAKER WHINING AFK CLOAKER WHINING SOME MORE TAKING AFK CLOAKER WHINING TO PATHETIC LEVELS (BE SURE YOU CHECK PAGE 7 & 8 FOR MY POSTS) AND NOW YOUR JUST WHISTLING DIXIE AND STANDING THERE WITH YOUR THUMB UP YOUR A I like my Cov Ops Cloak thank you. This is Sci-Fi. Cloaks are SUPPOSED to be NEARLY invincible devices. That is what ISSAC ASIMOV THE GOD FATHER OF SCI-FI DESIGNED THEM FOR OH SO MANY YEARS AGO!!! So once again... STOP FUING WITH MY SCI-FI DIT!!! Yargh. I be SGT Funyoun. King of the Pirates!!!**
Martmos	Posted - 2011.06.07 03:24:00 - [43] Nice to see we actually have some decent comments going. I like how you use the AFK part to turn around the whole discussion and make it look senseless. If you push it a bit further however, you should come to same conclusion as anybody else who's reasonnable. Sure, an afk-cloaker is not dangerous cuz he's afk. Problem is he's there anyway and you can never know when he'll just get behind the computer and decide to become everything but ... AFK. Now I can appreciate those who think the "buddy system" will help you out in this but that's a bit to much wishfull thinking. Yes cloakers are usually solo and unless they be in a t3, are usually of limited danger.... ...now at this point I'm surprised nobody has yet mentionned the concept of a cyno???? Have you all been living out in 0.0 or low-sec at all? Is it really necessary to explain it any further? I would guess so. So, the afk-cloaker is innoffensive. Cool, let's go along with that. Even better, we'll throw in the buddy system. Let's all go out mining. Sure we're building ships to pvp with, but that godforsaken act of mining makes us carebears, thus perfect targets. Now we're not completly stupid, this afk-cloaker still could ... potentially.... be dangerous so we'll bring some solid escort. After a couple of hours, guy comes back to his screen, thus making him not so AFK. Checks the belts (he had previously bookmarked, don't throw the probes argument here again...) and he smiles. Calls up the friends, they gather around the titan or black ops and then the, now a simple cloaker, lights the cyno and voila. 15 hostiles fall on you flying EXACTLY what is required to easily counter your useless defense. Now everybody has a sense of self-preservation. Yarr-tards, despite all their smack talk to try and get people fighting, will never commit to a fight they don't think they will win. And the irony is that they in turn bi*ch against the fact that less combat-oriented pilots don't go out mining/ratting/whatever in presence of a cyno-capable afk-cloaker. Ironic cuz it's the same sense of self-preservation at work. Nobody will go out and put themselves in a situation that they know for sure, will end up in them being outnumbered, outgunned and outmatched. Especially when the afk-maybe-not-afk cloaker is a known hotdropper. Now to push the irony further, here we are talking of ways to maybe give those god forsaken carebears/renters/not 100% combat focused players a way to actually react and maybe even get a fight out of it but still, we end up with the endless stream of useless comments. EVE is a question of balance. Whipping the floor with one's opponent is always fun. But everybody knows the best fights come from more balanced situations. The current afk-cloaking discussion boils down to one major point. It's unbalanced. Big time and in favor of the guy/corp/alliance who's doing it. More so, it's an unbalance that ends up being boring for both parts. It's no fun for the afk-cloaker. Which is why he'll almost always be an alt. The player knows it's boring and actually wants to play Eve while doing it. It's also boring for the people who operate in system. They know they can't do much and they know it's not worth actually trying something because it will almost undoudtebly be at their disadvantage. It's not as much a question of nerfing the afk-cloaker as much as it is one of balancing the fields so that when someone pulls off that tactic, both parties can actually end up playing the game trying to outmanoeuver/counter each other instead of that god-forsaken worst of all carebear habits........ POSing up... And to those pointing to local as a problem and comparing to WH-space... again a question of balance. Sure you'll never see the afk-cloaker, but he can't come up and throw a cyno on you can he? Don't go comparing apples and oranges to turn the discussion to your favor. It's almost insulting...
Dealin'lak	Posted - 2011.06.07 03:27:00 - [44] Wow, Sgt Funyoun, you really need to get laid... ...sad to read a post like that.
SGT FUNYOUN Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.07 03:42:00 - [45] Originally by: Dealin'lak Wow, Sgt Funyoun, you really need to get laid... ...sad to read a post like that. Ok bud... you need to keep your comments on topic. I am a Combat Arms Soldier in the US Army (hint: SGT = "Buck" SERGEANT). I started playing this game out of bordeom while I was in Iraq. Just because I REEEEEALLY like Sci-Fi does not mean I am a hopeless nerd always stuck to my screen playing video games and such... EVE is the ONLY PC game I play and the only console I have is a PS2... so what else ya got troll? Yargh. I be SGT Funyoun. King of the Pirates!!!
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.07 06:02:00 - [46] Originally by: Sieona Savi It would all depend on how you define hurt. But in a sense they are causing me to not venture out and mine or do missions or other null sec releated activities because of his presence. I endevour that we do need to protect our space but since we cannot at present there is not much I can do but to play it safe. So he is in fact hurting me. No, he's not..read my post above. You should never know he's there. Local is an unfair intel advantage you are lording over the cloaked. Again it's not the AFK you are worried about..your words prove it. Remove local, the problem goes away.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.07 06:08:00 - [47] Quote: This is Sci-Fi. Cloaks are SUPPOSED to be NEARLY invincible I admire your enthusim and we are on the same side. Still, I disagree with this one point: Cloaks are not invincible; they are just not detectable. Cloaking can be broken. I have seen covert ops lost in engagements.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.07 06:26:00 - [48] Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 07/06/2011 06:27:16 Quote: there should be a way to detect cloaking. If we had this ability, regardless of whether local is there or not would it stop the goals and the experience of eve or make it worse? Here's the trouble with this: as soon as you have the ability to detect..nay not detect, scan down a cloaked ship (because with local you already have the ability to detect the cloaked), anyway, as soon as you have that ability cloaking becomes a worthless tool. As soon as a cloaker is suspected the probes will go out. Cloaking comes with many drawbacks which you should already be aware of. Why add more? There's reduced movement speed, targeting delay, can't target while cloaked, can't get close to anything without being decloaked, draws large resourses, can't warp with anything not ops while cloaked, and occupies a high slot. No change can be made to cloaks at all til' the problem of auto detection in local is resolved.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.07 06:32:00 - [49] Originally by: Martmos After a couple of hours, guy comes back to his screen, thus making him not so AFK. àso AFK cloakers are obviously not the issue here. Quote: Checks the belts (he had previously bookmarked, don't throw the probes argument here again...) and he smiles. Calls up the friends, they gather around the titan or black ops and then the, now a simple cloaker, lights the cyno and voila. àyou warp out and get your friends. So even at the keyboard, he's not all that dangerous. Quote: 15 hostiles fall on you flying EXACTLY what is required to easily counter your useless defense. So don't make the defence useless. Lay a trap for the poor *****s. Quote: The current afk-cloaking discussion boils down to one major point. It's unbalanced. Yes, but no. It boils down to one major point: local gives too much information and needs a hard counter. AFK cloaking is that counter. Quote:** And to those pointing to local as a problem and comparing to WH-space... again a question of balance. Sure you'll never see the afk-cloaker, but he can't come up and throw a cyno on you can he? Do you know why you'll never see the AFK cloaker? It's because he's AFK. When he's not AFK, he's doing what a cloaked ship should be able to do: sneak around without anyone noticing him. When he strikes, he's as easy to counter as any other ship in the same situation. The balance remains the same: without local, the cloak does exactly what it's supposed to do; with local, it also serves the job of being a counter to local. The balance is maintained. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.06.07 08:09:00 - [50] get the f*ck out here. There are enough threads about this rtarded topic. Read them.
Feligast Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.06.07 09:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Martmos After a couple of hours, guy comes back to his screen, thus making him not so AFK. àso AFK cloakers are obviously not the issue here. Quote: Checks the belts (he had previously bookmarked, don't throw the probes argument here again...) and he smiles. Calls up the friends, they gather around the titan or black ops and then the, now a simple cloaker, lights the cyno and voila. àyou warp out and get your friends. So even at the keyboard, he's not all that dangerous. Quote: 15 hostiles fall on you flying EXACTLY what is required to easily counter your useless defense. So don't make the defence useless. Lay a trap for the poor *****s. Quote: The current afk-cloaking discussion boils down to one major point. It's unbalanced. Yes, but no. It boils down to one major point: local gives too much information and needs a hard counter. AFK cloaking is that counter. Quote:** And to those pointing to local as a problem and comparing to WH-space... again a question of balance. Sure you'll never see the afk-cloaker, but he can't come up and throw a cyno on you can he? Do you know why you'll never see the AFK cloaker? It's because he's AFK. When he's not AFK, he's doing what a cloaked ship should be able to do: sneak around without anyone noticing him. When he strikes, he's as easy to counter as any other ship in the same situation. The balance remains the same: without local, the cloak does exactly what it's supposed to do; with local, it also serves the job of being a counter to local. The balance is maintained. Tippia, do you know why I love you? Because you'll actually take the time to get into all this with people like this, and go over and over (and over and over) all this. Kudos to you.
John'eh Gallente Asteroid Belt Protection Services	Posted - 2011.06.07 11:33:00 - [52] The only people who want to nerf afk cloaking are the people who support botting and other exploits.
zx02	Posted - 2011.06.07 12:57:00 - [53] AFK cloaking is not a part from fair play and need to be fix . If you are not afk ok , but if you are ppl nothing to do against you. AFK cloak and go to sleep is not good idea. Just add a cloak cycle time like 1 or 2 hours or what CCP want. If you are not AFK .. again cloak and all is OK right?
AFK Master AFK Chartered System Management	Posted - 2011.06.07 13:02:00 - [54] Originally by: zx02 AFK cloaking is not a part from fair play and need to be fix . If you are not afk ok , but if you are ppl nothing to do against you. AFK cloak and go to sleep is not good idea. Just add a cloak cycle time like 1 or 2 hours or what CCP want. If you are not AFK .. again cloak and all is OK right? If it stops your bot working it's all good in my book
zx02	Posted - 2011.06.07 13:11:00 - [55] Originally by: AFK Master Originally by: zx02 AFK cloaking is not a part from fair play and need to be fix . If you are not afk ok , but if you are ppl nothing to do against you. AFK cloak and go to sleep is not good idea. Just add a cloak cycle time like 1 or 2 hours or what CCP want. If you are not AFK .. again cloak and all is OK right? If it stops your bot working it's all good in my book OK Its not your job to stop any bot.CCP will bann any bot. AFK cloak need to be fix.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.06.07 13:23:00 - [56] Originally by: zx02 OK Its not your job to stop any bot.CCP will bann any bot. loooool sure. Originally by: zx02 AFK cloak need to be fix. there is nothing to fix. Afk cloak is fine. GTFO to empire if you cant accept that.
zx02	Posted - 2011.06.07 13:31:00 - [57] Edited by: zx02 on 07/06/2011 13:35:57 Edited by: zx02 on 07/06/2011 13:32:03 Originally by: Robert Caldera Originally by: zx02 OK Its not your job to stop any bot.CCP will bann any bot. loooool sure. Originally by: zx02 AFK cloak need to be fix. there is nothing to fix. Afk cloak is fine. GTFO to empire if you cant accept that. AFK in some other games and you wil get bann. AFK cloak is not part of fair play. You go to Empire and stay cloak. OK go now and stay cloak? Or you want to sleep cloaky? need to fix /change.
AFK Master AFK Chartered System Management	Posted - 2011.06.07 13:36:00 - [58] Originally by: zx02 AFK in some other games and you wil get bann. AFK cloak is not part of fair play. need to fix /change. Name those games lol @ fair play
zx02	Posted - 2011.06.07 13:40:00 - [59] Originally by: AFK Master Originally by: zx02 AFK in some other games and you wil get bann. AFK cloak is not part of fair play. need to fix /change. Name those games lol @ fair play Kids. You dont know what is fair play? just paste in google "what is fair play" ok.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.06.07 13:48:00 - [60] then go play those "other games". Eve is not fair and was never designed that way.

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