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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.08 23:53:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Akita T on 08/06/2011 23:55:32
 Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Originally by: Akita T
The same people that would win if the scenario would be 20 vs 20 instead of 10k vs 10k 
In other words, either one, or even stalemate, depending on many factors other than just pure numbers / pure alpha.
the problem is that by stacknerfing both damage and reps, YOU have decided to override all the other factors, dependent upon how the two scale relative to each other
if damage outdoes repping, no ship can ever be saved no matter how much repping you have (sucks to be a logi pilot, heh.)
if reps outdo damage, no ship can ever be killed (so long as it can absorb the alpha...which would probably also be stacknerfed, so basically no one would ever die)
Balancing the two such that they're even roughly balanced against each other would be like trying to balance a bowling ball on the point of a needle, and even if you did you'd likely wind up with a number of unkillable fits based on players figuring out the math and exploiting it
in short, it's a very bad idea. The current situation works fine, imho; RR fleets can be countered with jamming, bombs, alpha fleets.
It's a bit of the "chicken and egg" thing going on here.
On one hand, the damage and repair figures are already pretty arbitrary to begin with.
The exact same argument could be made for just a single ship on either side and self-repair capabilities.
And anything that gives a reason to NOT blob so much could be viewed as something positive.
Afterall, you're not doing much but artificially scaling down the maximum size of an effective force applied against a single target, be it for assistance or hostile purposes.
On the other hand, you have a point, it does mess with the existing balance.
And it could be incredibly difficult to balance.
However, when in doubt, you can always just err on the side of destruction - have it balanced in such a way that JUST supercaps fighting supercaps will ALWAYS end up in a stalemate, but as soon as you add in a sizeable smaller ship force, a force made up of just supercaps will always LOSE to the fleet that's composed of many vessel sizes.
I would argue that this "upset balance" would actually be far more beneficial than the one we're having right now.
P.S. Heck, you could even apply stack-nerfing JUST for capital ships, or even just for supercapital ships.
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2011.06.09 00:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Akita T
On one hand, the damage and repair figures are already pretty arbitrary to begin with.
Certainly, but it's not the numbers i'm concerned with, it's the scaling.
Quote:
The exact same argument could be made for just a single ship on either side and self-repair capabilities.
sure, but solo self-rep setups usually aren't cap stable in PvP without boosting (so they die eventually), whereas remote reps are easy to permarun with cap chains.
Quote:
And anything that gives a reason to NOT blob so much could be viewed as something positive.
People blob because they want to win and they hate losing. Not much is going to change that; even in games with literally no penalties for loss, people clump together and blob
Quote:
P.S. Heck, you could even apply stack-nerfing JUST for capital ships, or even just for supercapital ships.
there are better and more sensible ways to deal with supercaps vs subcap issues imho
_____________________
Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.06.09 01:18:00 -
[33]
I think applying a stacking penalty to RR would be excellent for the game. RR currently stacks so well, that when two 100+ size fleets engage each other, the winning side often holds the field with relatively few losses. Local reps are obsolete in fleet battles, as resistance+buffer+RR is the only option for surviving fleet assaults. When you have two large fleets engaging each other, you SHOULD have lots of losses on both sides!!!! It would make situational awareness in fleet fights much more important, and it would make assessing how well your fleet is doing a lot more than "are remote reps holding"....
I think balancing this would require a lot of analysis and work, and probably involve altering the resistences and buffers of various ships. It would be worthwhile, especially if it brought local reps back into PvP. You would also have to boost nullsec resources to deal with the extra carnage!
While you could apply a stacking penalty to reps, I don't think you can apply it to Damage:
EWAR can be stacked because it changes a specific mostly static attribute on a ship (Sig size, tracking speed, number of locks, etc). Since reps and damage are applied from different sources at random times, to apply a stacking penalties, you would have to alter the RATE OF CHANGE of HP. The most implementable option is to just nerf the reps in the order they arrive (1rst rep is full, 2nd is 90%, 3rd is whatever%...) during every 5s window (reps typically have a 4-5s duration). You can prevent exploitation by making the stacking penalty size dependent (small/med/large/cap). This option just doesn't work for dps, as dps comes in too many varieties based on size/ship/skils/ammo... Since turrets fire in 1-40s intervals, applying a stacking penalty to dps is just not implementable!
The major drawback to this, is people would be less willing to bring expensive toys to a fight.... As the chances of their death would be significantly increased!
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Shieko Chan
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Posted - 2011.06.09 01:51:00 -
[34]
Because - you can't find anyone to rep you? Yes, since that's all the are good for, by all means, let's make logistics ships worth less.
While we're at it why not nerf reppers across the board.
In case you missed the sarcasm, I hate the idea.
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Monstress
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Posted - 2011.06.09 03:29:00 -
[35]
Originally by: lloyd bank
the only counter to rr is to bring rr...
This is where I stopped reading. I suggest you all do the same.
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Mspaine
Amarr
Knights of Solitude
Knights of the Rising Phoenix
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Posted - 2011.06.09 07:05:00 -
[36]
fleet of 5 RR ships.
2 falcons can destroy all 5.
RR ships HAVE to be in constant communication with eachother. They can compensate if they have the numbers (5 MINAMUM - and they cant be noob at RR they have to be experienced).
Jam up two - you destroy their unlimited power chain.
Capitals in Triage? L2 Bring more Nutes imo if you know your'e facing an experienced RR team.
p.s Lockbreaker bombs. Are so under-used.
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salty Milk
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Posted - 2011.06.09 08:37:00 -
[37]
yeah and give weapons stacking penalty too :interrobang:
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N'tek alar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.09 08:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: lloyd bank
the only counter to rr is to bring rr...
Yeah, Totally.
Except....
ECM
Neuts
Rapid Target switching
High Alpha setups
And probably a bunch more that i'm missing. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.09 09:58:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
there are better and more sensible ways to deal with supercaps vs subcap issues imho
Yeah, but very few have a similar ragequit tear potential 
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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lloyd bank
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Posted - 2011.06.09 13:52:00 -
[40]
Originally by: N'tek alar
Originally by: lloyd bank
the only counter to rr is to bring rr...
Yeah, Totally.
Except....
ECM
Neuts
Rapid Target switching
High Alpha setups
And probably a bunch more that i'm missing.
yeah but you still need to bring simular amouts of rr to use any of those...
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Savage Angel
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Posted - 2011.06.09 13:59:00 -
[41]
Ever fought sleepers?
Besides, as many have said, there are counters already for RR in PvP.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.09 14:53:00 -
[42]
Originally by: lloyd bank
Originally by: Last Wolf
Last I checked... RR were SUPPOSED to make a target HARD to kill. If they didn't do that they would be pointless. How about you stop shooting the target that has 200 RR on it and shoot something else? Oh wait... that would require thinking.
Maybe we should make MWD only give 5% speed increase... It's too hard to catch a ship that is going fast!
the only counter to rr is to bring rr...
Let's make a bet. 100 mill ISK from you to me for every counter I can think up vs whatever stake you care to name.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
lloyd bank
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Posted - 2011.06.09 15:03:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: lloyd bank
Originally by: Last Wolf
Last I checked... RR were SUPPOSED to make a target HARD to kill. If they didn't do that they would be pointless. How about you stop shooting the target that has 200 RR on it and shoot something else? Oh wait... that would require thinking.
Maybe we should make MWD only give 5% speed increase... It's too hard to catch a ship that is going fast!
the only counter to rr is to bring rr...
Let's make a bet. 100 mill ISK from you to me for every counter I can think up vs whatever stake you care to name.
cool so we have:
nuets
ewar
switch targets real fastlike
high alpha...
now sc are immune to ewar
so you cant jam the sc turtle tank
go and try to nuet the sc turtle tank
ok switch targets real fast you still brining down that sc?
how many titans you need to alpha an sc
for regular ships yeah you have the 100 meals warping in/warp out trick trying to alpha threw the fleet
but when was the last time you saw a fleet battle that did not involve heavy use of rr? (and thats other then FW)
i am not saying kill rr... i am saying its way way way to op as it stands right now and is in need of some sort of nerf...
though that would be jokes someone bringin like 200 black birds fighting a rr fleet and winning...
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Karash Amerius
Sutoka
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Posted - 2011.06.09 15:45:00 -
[44]
I might be wrong on this, but from first thought I believe the "stacking penalties" you are referring to are really only applicable to percentage based modules and effects. Remote rep gives a set amount of HP per cycle.
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Karash Amerius - Operative - Sutoka
Fighting Broke - A Eve Online Blog
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente
C C P
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Posted - 2011.06.09 15:56:00 -
[45]
Moved from General Discsussion
Zymurgist
Community Representative
CCP NA, EVE Online
Contact Us |
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davet517
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.09 16:00:00 -
[46]
Quote:
the only counter to rr is to bring rr... its like the only counter to SC is to bring more sc... does not leave to much for independant thought...
but if rr had "stacking penalties" then yeah a ship would be harder to kill... but it would still go down... just slowly...
the very fact that there is 200 rr on a single ship is a problem in my books... but alas flame on
There's this thing called alpha strike. A ship can't be repped if it dies in one volley. You have to be in the right ships, and your FC has to be pretty good, and you have to listen to your FC and shoot what he's telling you to shoot, and only when he tells you to shoot it. That's your counter to RR. Enjoy.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.09 16:30:00 -
[47]
Originally by: davet517
Quote:
the only counter to rr is to bring rr... its like the only counter to SC is to bring more sc... does not leave to much for independant thought...
but if rr had "stacking penalties" then yeah a ship would be harder to kill... but it would still go down... just slowly...
the very fact that there is 200 rr on a single ship is a problem in my books... but alas flame on
There's this thing called alpha strike. A ship can't be repped if it dies in one volley. You have to be in the right ships, and your FC has to be pretty good, and you have to listen to your FC and shoot what he's telling you to shoot, and only when he tells you to shoot it. That's your counter to RR. Enjoy.
So wait, what you're saying is that the counter to RR chains is skill, strategy, and solid tactics?
IN OUR EVE?!?!?!
For shame good sir. For shame.
--Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.06.10 16:13:00 -
[48]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
So wait, what you're saying is that the counter to RR chains is skill, strategy, and solid tactics?
IN OUR EVE?!?!?!
For shame good sir. For shame.
Your right that logistic ships chains have counters: Nuets, Jams, Alpha all work to circumvent their RR. At the same time, these options are much less viable, if not futile, on carrier/sc ships chains.
Personally, I think I want RR stacking penalized so that it doesn't scale so high.... if 40 (non-alpha) BS's would be enough to overcome all the RR an abbadon could receive, then perhaps fleet battles would be more than just everyone locking a primary and firing... I would like fleet battles to entail shooting multiple ships at once.... where situational awareness counts, and personal survival becomes more skill bases (can you tell I like flying inties in fleet battles)... Realistically, this is a pipe dream.. and is perhaps less than ideal for the game. It would certainly make logistics roles a much bigger pain in the ass while reducing the praise they receive.. and they already have a mostly thankless job.
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Recursa Recursion
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Posted - 2011.06.11 04:10:00 -
[49]
An amusing but perhaps ineffective way would be to apply resistance to incoming RR. It cuts down on the amplification of the high resist buffer tank setups (Drakes, Abaddons, etc.).
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Oregin
Red Sky Morning
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.06.11 05:12:00 -
[50]
Originally by: lloyd bank
Originally by: N'tek alar
Originally by: lloyd bank
the only counter to rr is to bring rr...
Yeah, Totally.
Except....
ECM
Neuts
Rapid Target switching
High Alpha setups
And probably a bunch more that i'm missing.
yeah but you still need to bring simular amouts of rr to use any of those...
Damn right you do. Why do you think you should be able to get away with not bringing your own RR? Now your argument is effectively: nerf RR to the extent where we don't have to bring any and still have a chance of winning
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lloyd bank
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Posted - 2011.06.11 13:36:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Oregin
Originally by: lloyd bank
Originally by: N'tek alar
Originally by: lloyd bank
the only counter to rr is to bring rr...
Yeah, Totally.
Except....
ECM
Neuts
Rapid Target switching
High Alpha setups
And probably a bunch more that i'm missing.
yeah but you still need to bring simular amouts of rr to use any of those...
Damn right you do. Why do you think you should be able to get away with not bringing your own RR? Now your argument is effectively: nerf RR to the extent where we don't have to bring any and still have a chance of winning
Remember at7 were everyone was using duel logi setups or even the spider tank bs's... remember how boring those fights were... but in at8 when they limited the use of logis all of sudden the fights opened up... i am not saying make rr useless i am saying take it down a notch... if anything just reduce the max amount that rr gives...
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