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Will we see premium services in EVE?

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Florestan Bronstein draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.16 08:29:00 - [1] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 16/06/2011 08:35:45 Blizzard has not only poineered the inclusion of MTs into a subscription-based game, they are also continuing to explore the possibilities for so-called "premium services" on top of their game that require an additional subscription. Examples in WoW are the Remote Auction House and Remote Guild Chat services (together: 2.99$/month) and the upcoming service for cross-realm PvE (no price announced yet). CCP did originally try to charge extra for EVE voice in 2007 (10$/year) but abandoned that plan after massive player protest. EVE Gate would probably lend itself very well to expansion with premium services: changing skills OOG, accessing chat channels, accessing the in-game market, maybe an "EVE Gate" app for mobile devices, ... ... or CCP could leave all this to 3rd party developers and simply charge for access to a two-way API (current API is one-way in the sense that it only allows read access). How likely do you think it is that we will see premium services in EVE? Does CCP have to adopt this model in order to avoid becoming a dinosaur? What services would you be willing to pay for, which ones would be a big NO? Are premium services just a way to adjust subscription cost for inflation, a shameless money-grab or are an opportunity for the development of new features that would not be financially viable otherwise? Would be nice if we could have a civil discussion on that topic... edit: here are two TTH opinion pieces on premium services in WoW that I found interesting to read for background: Need or Greed: New premium services and World of Warcraft WoW: The Premium Service Debate
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.16 08:31:00 - [2] If it yields more money for less effort, you bet its coming ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 08:33:00 - [3] Start looking for new games
Florestan Bronstein draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.16 08:53:00 - [4] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 16/06/2011 08:55:30 Guess I'll add my personal view of things as a starting point for discussion: IMO the MMO market has grown to be extremely competitive and with many games going F2P or offering "endless" trials (restrictions on the content you can access but no 14/30 day time limit) subscription-based games start out at a disadvantage. Therefore they are extremely hesitant to raise monthly subscription cost above the magical 15$/month - even though their expenditure have increased with inflation during the last decade. For some time fast growth can make up for this increase in cost (the size of your development and content team is not related to the number of players you serve) but once growth begins to slow the increasing cost becomes painfully obvious... Microtransactions or premium services allow publishers to charge for the last ten years of inflation (if you take US CPI as an approximation that's a 28% increase in cost since 2001!) while not scaring away customers with higher base subscription fees.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 08:58:00 - [5] Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 08:58:10 They are cashing in on the addictiveness of MMO's and those that invested a lot of time, passion and find it hard to leave. Nothing more. Drug dealer mentality. F2P. Sample it, then you're hooked. Pay up. More More More. MT's are a wet dream of all game houses. WoW set the pace, Valve put it everywhere. Now it is normal.
Terrante Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:19:00 - [6] Apparently there are enough ppl out there wanting to buy stuff, so CCP would be insane not to at least try it. Being a company which wants to make a profit for its owners, investors and hopefully its employees, it prolly is the right thing to do. In the end it'll be us who make or break it. Either we want it and buy it or we don't. As long as I am not forced by CCP to buy any of that stuff AND it does not alter the game mechanics, CCP can milk the customers willing to fork over $ for bling-bling things all they want.
Tsubutai The Tuskers	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:27:00 - [7] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Therefore they are extremely hesitant to raise monthly subscription cost above the magical 15$/month - even though their expenditure have increased with inflation during the last decade. What's magical about it? Sure, its a nice round number, but I'm sceptical that people who happily pay $15/mo for an account would baulk at paying $20. I pay for my accounts with RL money and would have no objection to a straight price hike; what I find annoying are cheap attempts at increasing the price by stealth or monetizing previously free things.
Xion Gray	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:29:00 - [8] I have nothing against Premium Services or MT stores as long as it doesn't tip the ingame balance. If players want to pay 100 bucks for a custom paintjob thats fine. As long as the ship has the same stats as the "default" one.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Xion Gray I have nothing against Premium Services or MT stores as long as it doesn't tip the ingame balance. If players want to pay 100 bucks for a custom paintjob thats fine. As long as the ship has the same stats as the "default" one. It already is starting to affect the game. Custom Aurum ships, affecting targeting (they are primaries now - GOOD thing :) ) 3rd party tools, now most likely to charge to cover license - those that have those that havnt. Affecting gameplay decisions.
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:34:00 - [10] Pretty much all MMOs have premium services or microtransactions these days. I think it would be nice to see someone with enough guts to do things different instead of just jumping on the WoW bandwagon. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be CCP leading the innovation. Maybe it will be BioWare, who knows. (I'm not even kidding myself, I know very well BW won't make a single innovation)

Terrante Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Tsubutai ... what I find annoying are cheap attempts at increasing the price by stealth or monetizing previously free things. True, but due to the nature of your average customer he will not be willing to pay $5 more for the subscription, but will happy to do so for a bling-bling even if the bling-bling would be included in the hike of the subscription. The reasoning prolly being that I'll only have to pay $5 more once if I buy bling-bling, but will have to pay $5 more for the sub every month. Plus your average customer will be buying the stuff ingame with the reasoning that the $15 not being that much he might as well get one or two extras, as they don't cost that much In the end said customer will be spending more ingame than he'll be willing to spend for a sub. And that is the whole point for CCP and others. Get the customer to spend more on my game, without him realizing that he is doing so.
Digital Messiah Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:45:00 - [12] $$ for bling bling yes. $$ for pew pew no... Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Tsubutai ... what I find annoying are cheap attempts at increasing the price by stealth or monetizing previously free things. True, but due to the nature of your average customer he will not be willing to pay $5 more for the subscription, but will happy to do so for a bling-bling even if the bling-bling would be included in the hike of the subscription. The reasoning prolly being that I'll only have to pay $5 more once if I buy bling-bling, but will have to pay $5 more for the sub every month. Plus your average customer will be buying the stuff ingame with the reasoning that the $15 not being that much he might as well get one or two extras, as they don't cost that much In the end said customer will be spending more ingame than he'll be willing to spend for a sub. And that is the whole point for CCP and others. Get the customer to spend more on my game, without him realizing that he is doing so. Very true. But with time, hopefully the average customer will figure out this trick and simply ignore the bling bling. Or support a company with a transparent pricing structure.
Terrante Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Sarina Berghil Very true. But with time, hopefully the average customer will figure out this trick and simply ignore the bling bling. Or support a company with a transparent pricing structure. I hope somebody in gamers-heaven has an ear for that
Sarina Berghil Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Terrante I hope somebody in gamers-heaven has an ear for that Amen!
Brooks Puuntai Minmatar Solar Nexus. -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:56:00 - [16] I'm quite interested and somewhat hopeful that the F2P/MT business model is just a fad. Since what is/already going to happen is the market will be flooded with f2p. As with most f2p games quality is generally placed low on the priorities of the developer and is more focused on "fluff" items which will sell. It is a hope that a majority of gamers would then grow tired of this trend and move more back to a sub based model, which generally promotes quality amongst devs in hopes to keep its subs high. As for CCP, its seems they have lost what they use to be company wise. They where once a company that thrived off of being a niche developer and one that valued quality over quantity when it comes to community and development. CCP has been trying to go "mainstream" and is dragging Eve down with it.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 09:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Brooks Puuntai I'm quite interested and somewhat hopeful that the F2P/MT business model is just a fad. Since what is/already going to happen is the market will be flooded with f2p. As with most f2p games quality is generally placed low on the priorities of the developer and is more focused on "fluff" items which will sell. It is a hope that a majority of gamers would then grow tired of this trend and move more back to a sub based model, which generally promotes quality amongst devs in hopes to keep its subs high. As for CCP, its seems they have lost what they use to be company wise. They where once a company that thrived off of being a niche developer and one that valued quality over quantity when it comes to community and development. CCP has been trying to go "mainstream" and is dragging Eve down with it. It is not a FAD, it has been a GOAL for the past 10 years or more.
Terrante Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.16 10:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Brooks Puuntai I'm quite interested and somewhat hopeful that the F2P/MT business model is just a fad. Since what is/already going to happen is the market will be flooded with f2p. As with most f2p games quality is generally placed low on the priorities of the developer and is more focused on "fluff" items which will sell. It is a hope that a majority of gamers would then grow tired of this trend and move more back to a sub based model, which generally promotes quality amongst devs in hopes to keep its subs high. As for CCP, its seems they have lost what they use to be company wise. They where once a company that thrived off of being a niche developer and one that valued quality over quantity when it comes to community and development. CCP has been trying to go "mainstream" and is dragging Eve down with it. I totally agree with you, especially the last part. I've seen EVE more than double it's subs since I began playing and even I went from 1 account to 5. EVE has always been a "work in progress" and that is in parts what made it special. The Incarna expansion and with it the MT stuff is a huge step towards (more) mainstream and it reamains to be seen if it'll be a success or not and how it'll affect my gameplay. I for my part will need to get a clearer picture on how "stuff" in EVE develops, before I decide on re-subbing 4 of my 5 accounts.
I Love Boobies Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.16 10:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Tsubutai What's magical about it? Sure, its a nice round number, but I'm sceptical that people who happily pay $15/mo for an account would baulk at paying $20. I pay for my accounts with RL money and would have no objection to a straight price hike; what I find annoying are cheap attempts at increasing the price by stealth or monetizing previously free things. I beg to differ. I'm unwilling to pay above the current subscription price for my accounts for I have a budget and I have a set amount I can spend for gaming.
Arm Smith	Posted - 2011.06.16 12:23:00 - [20] Problem as i see it is eve pretty expensive as it is compared to other mmorpg's. Eve sub is ú13 ish give or take, wow is ú9, so there already ú4 up on the most popular game. If that price were to go up even more im not sure i'd bother and i think the same with alot of folks. As said the choice of online games has skyrocketed in recent months so it would be very easy to price yoruself out of the market. How long would it take for another developer to decide 'oo i can do this' and come out with a very similar game? also eve isn't perfect and starting to hit issues with its core sales value due to number of players. aka its selling point of completley open and unlimited numbers in fights is resulting in big lag and server crash's. If you start to charge people more for something thats still broken in the same way then they just wont bother. you charge only what people are prepared to pay.

Nora Smith Gallente Space Frontier Foundation	Posted - 2011.06.16 12:52:00 - [21] I'm not generally antagonistic towards premium content in MMOs, but all additional services must stay absolutely optional to the player base. Anything to be bought for additional money which affects the actual gameplay, e.g. giving players superior weapons or other powerful items, should stick to Free2Play titles, as there is no monthly fee. I'd ghave no problems with any services like: Buying decorative or non-functional items like fancy clothing, custom vinyls/decals for your favorite ship Alternative ship models, with the same stats as their free cousins Additional API services like raising the once-per-hour request limit for some exports A premium EVE Gate as mentioned in other posts, enabling you to change skills or trade OOG etc. The already announced API license that allows me to charge for my own EVE-related services
Ricardo Gonzalo Montalban	Posted - 2011.06.16 13:21:00 - [22] You can thank the liver spotted hands of Bobby Kotick for all that exploitation of WoW. I doubt we will see the likes of that here, but I could be wrong.
Kara Kugisa	Posted - 2011.06.16 13:36:00 - [23] Originally by: Arm Smith Problem as i see it is eve pretty expensive as it is compared to other mmorpg's. Eve sub is ú13 ish give or take, wow is ú9, so there already ú4 up on the most popular game. If that price were to go up even more im not sure i'd bother and i think the same with alot of folks. As said the choice of online games has skyrocketed in recent months so it would be very easy to price yoruself out of the market. How long would it take for another developer to decide 'oo i can do this' and come out with a very similar game? also eve isn't perfect and starting to hit issues with its core sales value due to number of players. aka its selling point of completley open and unlimited numbers in fights is resulting in big lag and server crash's. If you start to charge people more for something thats still broken in the same way then they just wont bother. you charge only what people are prepared to pay. Warcraft is13.99 if you pay month by month plus you have to spend 29.99 on the expansions. Even if you pay for several months to pay less per month it still works out to the same as eve.
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.16 13:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 16/06/2011 08:57:27 Guess I'll add my personal view of things as a starting point for discussion: IMO the MMO market has grown to be extremely competitive and with many games going F2P or offering "endless" trials (restrictions on the content you can access but no 14/30 day time limit) subscription-based games start out at a disadvantage. Therefore they are extremely hesitant to raise monthly subscription cost above the magical 15$/month - even though their expenditure have increased with inflation during the last decade. For some time fast growth can make up for this increase in cost (the size of your development and content team is not related to the number of players you serve) but once growth begins to slow the increasing cost becomes painfully obvious... Microtransactions or premium services allow publishers to charge for the last ten years of inflation (if you take US CPI as an approximation that's a 28% increase in cost since 2001!) while not scaring away customers with higher base subscription fees. A 15$/month subscription in 2003 would equal around 18.40$/month today - as not all players will opt in to microtransactions (or would opt in to premium services) you have to charge those that do to make up for those that don't. When MMO's cam out, 15 bucks a month was a total **** you in your ass with no butter price. It wasn't even close to the cost of running the server, and you had to buy the game also. 15 bucks a month today is not even a fair price, so you can take that compensating for inflation and stick it in your hat bro. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups	Posted - 2011.06.16 13:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein CCP did originally try to charge extra for EVE voice in 2007 (10$/year) but abandoned that plan after massive player protest. I cant remember any mass protest about that really. More people lolling at another obvious CCP dead duck, never using it, the charge being dropped, and still nobody using it. Same thing with EVE tv when they tried to charge you to watch. That said, watch CCP very carefully, they have made movements to bring that eve voice back out of client, through eve gate. They may try to wring a few dollars out of that turd in the future SKUNK (o)
Arm Smith	Posted - 2011.06.16 14:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Kara Kugisa Originally by: Arm Smith Problem as i see it is eve pretty expensive as it is compared to other mmorpg's. Eve sub is ú13 ish give or take, wow is ú9, so there already ú4 up on the most popular game. If that price were to go up even more im not sure i'd bother and i think the same with alot of folks. As said the choice of online games has skyrocketed in recent months so it would be very easy to price yoruself out of the market. How long would it take for another developer to decide 'oo i can do this' and come out with a very similar game? also eve isn't perfect and starting to hit issues with its core sales value due to number of players. aka its selling point of completley open and unlimited numbers in fights is resulting in big lag and server crash's. If you start to charge people more for something thats still broken in the same way then they just wont bother. you charge only what people are prepared to pay. Warcraft is13.99 if you pay month by month plus you have to spend 29.99 on the expansions. Even if you pay for several months to pay less per month it still works out to the same as eve. if your paying that your being ripped off as far as i can tell, i took the price from wow's website (dont play so don't know if they hit you with extras or not) http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/faq/general.html What is the monthly fee to play the game? After the end of the one-month subscription included with the game, you will need to subscribe in order to continue playing. There are three options in our flexible subscription structure: month-by-month subscription costs 12.99Ç/ú8.99 per month, 3-month subscription costs 11.99Ç/ú8.39 per month and six month subscription costs 10.99Ç/ú7.69 per month.
Katrina Cortez	Posted - 2011.06.16 14:47:00 - [27] Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 16/06/2011 14:49:17 I think Star Trek got the MT stuff right... they sell stuff but you can get stuff free too. They arent coming off like a bunch of greedy pirates so I dont mind buying some stuff every now and then. However Cryptic was just bought out by Perfect World Entertainment and it remains to be seen what will become of that... A little advice for CCP... if you start selling a bunch of crap make sure the tools are in game to manage it. Cryptic messed that all up... they are cranking out a new uniform every month and the character editor (tailor) has a list a mile long. Its really surprising because they actually did that pretty good in Champions and its the same engine... go figure. They also tried to force the store to do something it wasnt designed for and the players found a way to exploit it.
Speaker4 theDead	Posted - 2011.06.16 15:08:00 - [28] Well, personally I don't care, but I will probably be offering a 500 mil bounty on the first fancy ship I see out there.


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