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How many plex are really purchased per month with real money?

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Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 15:48:00 - [1] How many plex are really purchased per month with real money? Anybody got an idea?
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Veto Corp	Posted - 2011.06.18 15:50:00 - [2] Read the latest QEN.
daddys helper	Posted - 2011.06.18 15:51:00 - [3] it wouldn't be accurate just cut to the chase and tell us what your troll du jour is
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 15:51:00 - [4] Originally by: Mashie Saldana Read the latest QEN. QEN? Got a link? Does QEN have offical numbers or estimates?
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 15:55:00 - [5] http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/pdf/QEN_2007Q3.pdf 404, Not Found.
Florestan Bronstein draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.18 15:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Miilla http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/pdf/QEN_2007Q3.pdf 404, Not Found. I don't really know how to say this... but I think you should get some psychological support before looking at any calendars because you might be in a for a pretty rough shock
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Originally by: Miilla http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/pdf/QEN_2007Q3.pdf 404, Not Found. I don't really know how to say this... but I think you should get some psychological support before looking at any calendars because you might be in a for a pretty rough shock I know the date on it, but that is the link that google pulled up to the eveonline site lol. Can somebody link the latest? Eve site links are just like their API support.
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Miilla http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/pdf/QEN_2007Q3.pdf 404, Not Found. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Miilla http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/pdf/QEN_2007Q3.pdf 404, Not Found. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf List of QENs Q3 2007 Devblog, PDF Q4 2007 Devblog, PDF Q1 2008 Devblog,PDF Q2 2008 Devblog Q1 2009 Devblog, PDF Q2 2009 Devblog, PDF Q3 2009 Devblog, PDF Q4 2009 Devblog, PDF Q1 2010 Devblog, PDF Q2 2010 Devblog, PDF Q3 2010 Devblog, PDF Q4 2010 Devblog, PDF So no Q1 2011?
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Miilla http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/pdf/QEN_2007Q3.pdf 404, Not Found. http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf List of QENs Q3 2007 Devblog, PDF Q4 2007 Devblog, PDF Q1 2008 Devblog,PDF Q2 2008 Devblog Q1 2009 Devblog, PDF Q2 2009 Devblog, PDF Q3 2009 Devblog, PDF Q4 2009 Devblog, PDF Q1 2010 Devblog, PDF Q2 2010 Devblog, PDF Q3 2010 Devblog, PDF Q4 2010 Devblog, PDF So no Q1 2011? Not yet. soonÖ

LuNaRiAn SeRpEnT	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Miilla How many plex are really purchased per month with real money? Anybody got an idea? All of them.
Sakura Ren Fenikkusu	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:09:00 - [12] http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf Not a ton of information concerning the volume of PLEX entering the game through cash purchase. In Dec 2010, 100k units of PLEXs were traded with 375k active accounts, that would be 35-40 Trillion ISK injected into the eve-economy if they were all freshly bought PLEXs.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:17:00 - [13] Originally by: Sakura Ren Fenikkusu http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf Not a ton of information concerning the volume of PLEX entering the game through cash purchase. In Dec 2010, 100k units of PLEXs were traded with 375k active accounts, that would be 35-40 Trillion ISK injected into the eve-economy if they were all freshly bought PLEXs. Traded, yes, but Im looking for new injected PLEX. Any way to get their financial records per quarter? That subtracted from subscriptions would show the real plex injections.
Laura Kingsley Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Sakura Ren Fenikkusu http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf Not a ton of information concerning the volume of PLEX entering the game through cash purchase. In Dec 2010, 100k units of PLEXs were traded with 375k active accounts, that would be 35-40 Trillion ISK injected into the eve-economy if they were all freshly bought PLEXs. Indeed, it doesn't say how many are actually bought or used for gametime, and neither how many plexes are acually in the game at the moment. It's all relative numbers, no absolute.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Miilla Any way to get their financial records per quarter? That subtracted from subscriptions would show the real plex injections. lol Originally by: Miilla All companies have to report, even private ones, anybody in Iceland can get access to the company registers? Even for a small fee registers give out financial reports. lol ~~~
Aiwha Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:34:00 - [16] The number you're looking for is the number of Game Time Codes purchased per month, which has almost no connection to plex amount per months.(aside that plexes created are lower than GTC purchases) Many GTC's are traded directly here on the forums for isk rather than creating plex ingame to be sold. I can't heal stupid
NickyYo	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:38:00 - [17] Edited by: NickyYo on 18/06/2011 16:39:28 Originally by: Miilla How many plex are really purchased per month with real money? Anybody got an idea? I presume every plex you see on the market is from real money as this is the only way to actualy get them.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:41:00 - [18] Edited by: JC Anderson on 18/06/2011 16:42:18 Its all from real money... Outside of a few CCP seeding conspiracy theories. So for the most part, the majority of plex sales on the market all originated with a real money transaction through CCP. Which is why I think it's funny when people threaten to never pay cash again and only buy plex with ISK. They do not realize that the plex they are buying for ISK has already been paid for with real money at its source. Not only that, but by purchasing plex they only help to drive up the demand for it.
Sergeant Spot Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:44:00 - [19] Originally by: Miilla How many plex are really purchased per month with real money? Anybody got an idea? Pretty sure it is "all of them". PLEX never make it into game unless someone buys them with RL cash. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Katrina Cortez	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:48:00 - [20] Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 18/06/2011 16:48:03 The answer is none... you cant buy plex for real money... you can buy GTC tho.

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Sergeant Spot Originally by: Miilla How many plex are really purchased per month with real money? Anybody got an idea? Pretty sure it is "all of them". PLEX never make it into game unless someone buys them with RL cash. Yes I know that but I was specifically referring to newly created PLEX eacy month / quarter.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.18 16:50:00 - [22] Edited by: JC Anderson on 18/06/2011 16:51:04 Originally by: Katrina Cortez Edited by: Katrina Cortez on 18/06/2011 16:48:03 The answer is none... you cant buy plex for real money... you can buy GTC tho. You certainly can.. You buy plex off the official account management and it spawns in your home station. You can ALSO buy GTC codes, but buying plex straight through CCP is much less of a hassle IMHO.
Katrina Cortez	Posted - 2011.06.18 17:06:00 - [23] Originally by: JC Anderson You buy plex off the official account management and it spawns in your home station. I stand corrected...
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.18 17:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Katrina Cortez Originally by: JC Anderson You buy plex off the official account management and it spawns in your home station. I stand corrected... A LOT of people have thought the same... Including me until somebody told me otherwise and I checked.
Kerrisone	Posted - 2011.06.18 17:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Sakura Ren Fenikkusu http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf Not a ton of information concerning the volume of PLEX entering the game through cash purchase. In Dec 2010, 100k units of PLEXs were traded with 375k active accounts, that would be 35-40 Trillion ISK injected into the eve-economy if they were all freshly bought PLEXs. It isn't injected it is traded, PLEX don't magik isk into existence it simply allows the trading of it. Players with enough isk to buy plex do so from another player who magiks plex into existence with their wallet.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.06.18 18:00:00 - [26] Edited by: Ghoest on 18/06/2011 18:01:07 Boy are some of you confused - espially WTF is the talk about isk being "injected"? The onl way isk are being injected is if CCP are buying the plex themselves off the market to stabilize prices. I think what Miilla is asking is how many GTC are converted to plex each month + plex bought directly from CCP. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 18:03:00 - [27] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 18:03:58 Originally by: Ghoest Edited by: Ghoest on 18/06/2011 18:01:07 Boy are some of you confused - espially WTF is the talk about isk being "injected"? The onl way isk are being injected is if CCP are buying the plex themselves off the market to stabilize prices. I think what Miilla is asking is how many GTC are converted to plex each month + plex bought directly from CCP. Ok let me clarify. PLEX is generated from 2 (two) sources, GTC conversions and PLEX purchases. I am interested to see how many NEWLY GENERATED (via either source) PLEX are made each month / quarter. Only PLAYER PURCHASES (via either of these 2 sources) are able to generate PLEX. (PLEX faucets). That is REAL REVENUE to CCP, on top of subscriptions. PLEX are REMOVED by PLAYERS via 2 sinks, AURUM conversion and 30day gametime (and other External paid events they dream up - like fanfest).
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2011.06.18 18:07:00 - [28] Originally by: Miilla PLEX are REMOVED by PLAYERS via 2 sinks, AURUM conversion and 30day gametime (and other External paid events they dream up - like fanfest). you forgot about kestrels...
da go	Posted - 2011.06.18 18:58:00 - [29] Originally by: Sakura Ren Fenikkusu In Dec 2010, 100k units of PLEXs were traded with 375k active accounts, that would be 35-40 Trillion ISK injected into the eve-economy if they were all freshly bought PLEXs. You fail at economics. Not a single isk has ever being injected in the game by anything related to PLEX. A small amount of isks is removed from the game each time a plex is traded. --- I don't know! I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again! Bart Simpson.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:33:00 - [30] Latest solid data : 2009.08.11 Devblog _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts

Mocam	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 18:12:44 Originally by: Ghoest Edited by: Ghoest on 18/06/2011 18:01:07 Boy are some of you confused - espially WTF is the talk about isk being "injected"? The onl way isk are being injected is if CCP are buying the plex themselves off the market to stabilize prices. I think what Miilla is asking is how many GTC are converted to plex each month + plex bought directly from CCP. Ok let me clarify. PLEX is generated from 2 (two) sources, GTC conversions and PLEX purchases. I am interested to see how many NEWLY GENERATED (via either source) PLEX are made each month / quarter. Only PLAYER PURCHASES (via either of these 2 sources) are able to generate PLEX. (PLEX faucets). That is REAL REVENUE to CCP, on top of subscriptions. As far as I am aware, you buy GTC's and they are converted to PLEX. I haven't seen the ability to buy PLEX directly for $$ but it may be out there. Recently the buddy system was given the ability to get a PLEX so there is 1 additional source but it is not reflected in those 6 month old numbers. PLEX is a pre-paid subscription. Outside of trading this subscription around on the market, there is no other use for the PLEX beyond the conversion to game-time. As such they ARE part of your paid accounts - not additional revenue. Someone pays, someone plays - it just happens to be 2 different people is all. 300k accounts - 100k plex'd accounts = 200k people running 300k accounts with all of them paid for and accounted for, plex'd or subscription fees. As for GTC's - at 1 GTC = 2 PLEX, you get 50k players buy GTC's, 100k accounts use them. NOBODY outside CCP could give you the exact numbers. Taxes don't have to declare differences in sources of this nature and GTC's are a type of subscription mechanism. Quote: PLEX are REMOVED by PLAYERS via 4 sinks, AURUM conversion and 30day gametime and IN SHIP DESTRUCTION :) (and other External paid events they dream up - like fanfest). (in ship destruction sink isnt a large sink - EXCEPT that Kestral :) (30 days game time is the biggest sink - today) (AURUM sink - nobody knows yet how large the effect will be - but CCP are betting on this one) (External events sink - not that frequent, but potentially a large sink, atm, yearly for fanfest). The little bit in the middle - Non consumption / stockpiling is a problem for CCP as it is a bottleneck for NEW purcahses. Aurum doesn't exist yet in game. As such PLEX cannot, at this time, be removed via this mechanism. Destruction is rare but also recent, it did not exist with those early numbers you are working with. External events - like donating for disasters - true but, again, fairly rare. Someone recently stated that it was $4000 donated to 1 such event but these also tend to not be "revenue" for CCP being as they convert the PLEX back to cash for the donation - out of pocket. One implication of all this, the uses in conversion to Aurum and destruction will make any calculations on number of plex'd accounts very difficult to figure - if this is what you are after.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:40:00 - [32] Originally by: Mocam Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 18:12:44 Originally by: Ghoest Edited by: Ghoest on 18/06/2011 18:01:07 Boy are some of you confused - espially WTF is the talk about isk being "injected"? The onl way isk are being injected is if CCP are buying the plex themselves off the market to stabilize prices. I think what Miilla is asking is how many GTC are converted to plex each month + plex bought directly from CCP. Ok let me clarify. PLEX is generated from 2 (two) sources, GTC conversions and PLEX purchases. I am interested to see how many NEWLY GENERATED (via either source) PLEX are made each month / quarter. Only PLAYER PURCHASES (via either of these 2 sources) are able to generate PLEX. (PLEX faucets). That is REAL REVENUE to CCP, on top of subscriptions. As far as I am aware, you buy GTC's and they are converted to PLEX. I haven't seen the ability to buy PLEX directly for $$ but it may be out there. Recently the buddy system was given the ability to get a PLEX so there is 1 additional source but it is not reflected in those 6 month old numbers. PLEX is a pre-paid subscription. Outside of trading this subscription around on the market, there is no other use for the PLEX beyond the conversion to game-time. As such they ARE part of your paid accounts - not additional revenue. Someone pays, someone plays - it just happens to be 2 different people is all. 300k accounts - 100k plex'd accounts = 200k people running 300k accounts with all of them paid for and accounted for, plex'd or subscription fees. As for GTC's - at 1 GTC = 2 PLEX, you get 50k players buy GTC's, 100k accounts use them. NOBODY outside CCP could give you the exact numbers. Taxes don't have to declare differences in sources of this nature and GTC's are a type of subscription mechanism. Quote: PLEX are REMOVED by PLAYERS via 4 sinks, AURUM conversion and 30day gametime and IN SHIP DESTRUCTION :) (and other External paid events they dream up - like fanfest). (in ship destruction sink isnt a large sink - EXCEPT that Kestral :) (30 days game time is the biggest sink - today) (AURUM sink - nobody knows yet how large the effect will be - but CCP are betting on this one) (External events sink - not that frequent, but potentially a large sink, atm, yearly for fanfest). The little bit in the middle - Non consumption / stockpiling is a problem for CCP as it is a bottleneck for NEW purcahses. Aurum doesn't exist yet in game. As such PLEX cannot, at this time, be removed via this mechanism. Destruction is rare but also recent, it did not exist with those early numbers you are working with. External events - like donating for disasters - true but, again, fairly rare. Someone recently stated that it was $4000 donated to 1 such event but these also tend to not be "revenue" for CCP being as they convert the PLEX back to cash for the donation - out of pocket. One implication of all this, the uses in conversion to Aurum and destruction will make any calculations on number of plex'd accounts very difficult to figure - if this is what you are after. Go to account management -> Buy PLEX.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:44:00 - [33] Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 19:46:23 Miilla, latest data plus speculation posted on previous page, if you missed it. Some edits with comments added a bit later. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 19:46:23 Miilla, latest data plus speculation posted on previous page, if you missed it. Some edits with comments added a bit later. 2..4 million dollars they have already got the cash for (minus inflation % value), PLEX stockpiled or not, once generated, has been paid for and on the CCP balance sheet as revenue. However, they want to keep that FLOWING, with stockpiling, the flow is like trickle. You can see their accountants are chewing at the bit and flooding the building with egarness to get that trickle river flowing into a Niagra Falls.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:53:00 - [35] Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 19:55:01 Originally by: Miilla 2..4 million dollars they have already got the cash for (minus inflation % value), PLEX stockpiled or not, once generated, has been paid for and on the CCP balance sheet as revenue. Revenue, maybe, in a sense. But also a liability. So, basically, more like a loan at zero interest rate. Imagine that one day, a noticeable percentage of the server decides "screw it, I'll stop paying my sub and switch to PLEX". For that particular month or months (before PLEX prices go through the roof), CCP will see a huge dip in revenue, a revenue on which they relied upon. How would you feel if somebody loaned you 4 mil dollars, and told you "do whatever you want with it, but one day, I will ask for it back, and you have about 2 weeks to give them to me once I ask"... wouldn't that sort of limit your potential uses for it ? _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:55:00 - [36] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla 2..4 million dollars they have already got the cash for (minus inflation % value), PLEX stockpiled or not, once generated, has been paid for and on the CCP balance sheet as revenue. Revenue, maybe, in a sense. But also a liability. So, basically, more like a loan at zero interest rate. Imagine that one day, a noticeable percentage of the server decides "screw it, I'll stop paying my sub and switch to PLEX". For that particular month or months (before PLEX prices go through the roof), CCP will see a huge dip in revenue, a revenue on which they relied upon. How is it a liability, they sold a product - a Plex - an ingame virtual item. They customer GOT that ITEM. The transaction has been closed. Nothing remaining, all they want is to keep that river flowing, and speed it up.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:57:00 - [37] Originally by: Miilla How is it a liability Fiscal//financial liability, as in a current obligation of an entity arising from past transactions or events. NOT "regular" liability, as in something that is a hindrance or puts an individual or group at a disadvantage. Small but important distinction. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:59:00 - [38] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 19:57:17 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla 2..4 million dollars they have already got the cash for (minus inflation % value), PLEX stockpiled or not, once generated, has been paid for and on the CCP balance sheet as revenue. Revenue, maybe, in a sense. But also a liability. So, basically, more like a loan at zero interest rate. Imagine that one day, a noticeable percentage of the server decides "screw it, I'll stop paying my sub and switch to PLEX". For that particular month or months (before PLEX prices go through the roof), CCP will see a huge dip in revenue, a revenue on which they relied upon. How is it a liability, they sold a product - a Plex - an ingame virtual item. They customer GOT that ITEM. The transaction has been closed. Nothing remaining, all they want is to keep that river flowing, and speed it up. I think you are mistaking the PLEX as a Promisary note for 30 days gametime - I can see CCP changing the description of a PLEX to remove that, as it can be used for other purposes now. AURUM and external events etc. It is just another virtual item (currency in this case). Yes, but they don't know if the holder of the plex is going to turn it to game-time or blow it up or whatever. They can legally only cash it in once it has been "used" and taken out of the game.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 19:59:00 - [39] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:01:46 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla How is it a liability Fiscal//financial liability, as in a current obligation of an entity arising from past transactions or events. NOT "regular" liability, as in something that is a hindrance or puts an individual or group at a disadvantage. Small but important distinction. Read my last. That is why CCP are changing it, so there is no financial liability. It is not just to get them out of the game for financial liabilities, it is so they CAN SELL MORE of them. The promise that CCP give for purchasing PLEX is a plex item. CCP themselves stated it has no special signifigance, that is why they are doing that now. So it is not a financial liability. If CCP go under, nobody can demand 30 days gametime refunds from the liquidator.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:02:00 - [40] Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 20:04:07 Originally by: Miilla Read my last. In edit... Originally by: Miilla I think you are mistaking the PLEX as a Promisary note for 30 days gametime It is that, and will remain that TOO, no matter how you alter the description. The split second you no longer allow it to be applied for 30 days of gametime, all hell WILL break loose. CCP can't afford to not keep its current functionality. So, for that reason, for all practical intents and purposes, it will remain ALSO a "promissory note for 30 days of gametime". The fact it will also have some other uses doesn't matter. It only means they have different ways to reduce the stockpile. Quote: If CCP go under, nobody can demand 30 days gametime refunds from the liquidator. If CCP go under, the PLEX stockpile is the last of their worries. Hell, if they go under and you just purchased a 1-year sub, you're still SOL, you can at most ask back for 30 (or was it 90) days' worth. It's in the EULA. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:04:00 - [41] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:04:32 Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 20:02:50 Originally by: Miilla Read my last. In edit... Originally by: Miilla I think you are mistaking the PLEX as a Promisary note for 30 days gametime It is that, and will remain that TOO, no matter how you alter the description. The split second you no longer allow it to be applied for 30 days of gametime, all hell WILL break loose. CCP can't afford to not keep its current functionality. So, for that reason, for all practical instants and purposes, it will remain ALSO a "promissory note for 30 days of gametime". The fact it will also have some other uses doesn't matter. It only means they have different ways to reduce the stockpile. Quote: If CCP go under, nobody can demand 30 days gametime refunds from the liquidator. If CCP go under, the PLEX stockpile is the last of their worries. No but all the people that purchased plex cannot get a refund back fromt he liquidator. Game Time Codes, however, THEY CAN. Once a GTC is converted to 2 PLEX, it is no longer game time and not a financial liability. It is an ingame item. They confused people by allowing DIRECT purchase of PLEX, but they are getting an "ingame item" and nothing is owed, they got the item for use in a game.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Miilla No but all the people that purchased plex cannot get a refund back from the liquidator. Absolutely, completely and totally irrelevant - CCP does not plan to go under any time soon, and the financial liability we're talking about is one that still exists even if they keep working just fine. You can't even ask for much of your subscription cash back either if you paid for a longer sub time anyway. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:07:00 - [43] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla No but all the people that purchased plex cannot get a refund back from the liquidator. Absolutely, completely and totally irrelevant - CCP does not plan to go under any time soon, and the financial liability we're talking about is one that still exists even if they keep working just fine. You can't even ask for much of your subscription cash back either if you paid for a longer sub time anyway. It is relevant, financial liabilities are debt that the liquidator has to repay.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:09:00 - [44] Originally by: Miilla It is relevant, financial liabilities are debt that the liquidator has to repay. You don't need to be close to liquidation to have financial liabilities. Financial liabilities are ANY obligations that a company has NOW due to something they did in the past. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:11:00 - [45] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:14:57 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla It is relevant, financial liabilities are debt that the liquidator has to repay. You don't need to be close to liquidation to have financial liabilities. Financial liabilities are ANY obligations that a company has NOW due to something they did in the past. Yes, ofcourse, but my statement still stands with regard to PLEX. Game Time Codes are a finincial obligation they have from that point until its fullfilment (through either fiscial means whether liquidation or giving the game time - or - via the consent of the owner of the GTC - the ability to exchange it for something else - in this case - an ingame item called PLEX). I would actually like to see all this confusion resolved by CCP Accountant :)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:18:00 - [46] Well, you can make all the correct statements you want, as long as they're not relevant, you're wasting your breath. The facts are that no matter what else you like to say to divert attention from the important things, CCP can not afford to disallow PLEX from paying for subs. As long as PLEX can still pay for subs, it's a financial liability which restricts their options with regards to cashflow, and the total amount likely to exist right now is sufficiently high to cause problems if used up as sub payment in a short timespan. So, obviously, they're throwing everything but the kitchen sink towards any options which could possibly reduce the stockpile, because from their viewpoint, PLEX stockpiles are bad. Do you have anything relevant to that particular line of reasoning (and not branching off) to add ? _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:20:00 - [47] Originally by: Miilla ... I would actually like to see all this confusion resolved by CCP Accountant :) Basically PLEX and GTC are the same thing. Before PLEX you could buy GTC and sell them ingame for ISK as well. With the only difference being, that if you got scammed with the GTC number by whoever sold you the GTC ingame CCP would not be held accountable. Then they instituted the sale of GTC for ISK via the account management tool on eveonline.com. Then came PLEX. PLEX is basically a GTC with the exception, that only CCP will sell PLEX. But both are just a tool and a promise of game-time.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Miilla ... I would actually like to see all this confusion resolved by CCP Accountant :) Basically PLEX and GTC are the same thing. Before PLEX you could buy GTC and sell them ingame for ISK as well. With the only difference being, that if you got scammed with the GTC number by whoever sold you the GTC ingame CCP would not be held accountable. Then they instituted the sale of GTC for ISK via the account management tool on eveonline.com. Then came PLEX. PLEX is basically a GTC with the exception, that only CCP will sell PLEX. But both are just a tool and a promise of game-time. So you are saying when my PLEX (promisary note for 30 days gametime) is DESTROYED by another player IN the game owned by CCP, I can get that money back because it has not been fullfilled for 30 days gametime. Good.
Seymore Graves The New Era C0NVICTED	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:30:00 - [49] Edited by: Seymore Graves on 18/06/2011 20:30:52 Originally by: Miilla So you are saying when my PLEX (promisary note for 30 days gametime) is DESTROYED by another player IN the game owned by CCP, I can get that money back because it has not been fullfilled for 30 days gametime. Good. No, at no point has anyone stated this. You sir are an idiot.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Seymore Graves quote=Miilla] So you are saying when my PLEX (promisary note for 30 days gametime) is DESTROYED by another player IN the game owned by CCP, I can get that money back because it has not been fullfilled for 30 days gametime. Good. No,at no point has anyone stated this. You sir are an idiot. But it is a financial liability and CCP have not fulfilled with 30 days gametime :) Just using their logic.

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:32:00 - [51] You're just being intentionally dense now, and you know that just as well. At least argue about something that would have a purpose other than arguing for the sake of argument. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:33:00 - [52] Originally by: Akita T You're just being intentionally dense now, and you know that just as well. At least argue about something that would have a purpose other than arguing for the sake of argument. So, what happens to that "financial liability" that hasnt been fulfilled for 30 days gametime then?
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:33:00 - [53] Originally by: Miilla So you are saying when my PLEX (promisary note for 30 days gametime) is DESTROYED by another player IN the game owned by CCP, I can get that money back because it has not been fullfilled for 30 days gametime. Good. No you can't. Same as will be true for the AUR ships/vanity items which will be destroyed (if). Basically what CCP did was very clever. They sell you a PLEX for cash and at the same time let it be traded ingame AND be actually destroyed. What that means is for CCP: Either the PLEX will be used by someone sometime for game-time (liability for the future) or The PLEX gets kaboomed ingame and we don't owe anybody anything. In fact the buyer of the PLEX just gave us his $$ and got zip in return.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:36:00 - [54] Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Miilla So you are saying when my PLEX (promisary note for 30 days gametime) is DESTROYED by another player IN the game owned by CCP, I can get that money back because it has not been fullfilled for 30 days gametime. Good. No you can't. Same as will be true for the AUR ships/vanity items which will be destroyed (if). Basically what CCP did was very clever. They sell you a PLEX for cash and at the same time let it be traded ingame AND be actually destroyed. What that means is for CCP: Either the PLEX will be used by someone sometime for game-time (liability for the future) or The PLEX gets kaboomed ingame and we don't owe anybody anything. In fact the buyer of the PLEX just gave us his $$ and got zip in return. So, where can I get their company reports to see these "financial liabilities" we can tell from the numbers if PLEX really are liabilities easily.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Akita T You're just being intentionally dense now, and you know that just as well. At least argue about something that would have a purpose other than arguing for the sake of argument. So, what happens to that "financial liability" that hasnt been fulfilled for 30 days gametime then? As long as it's in GTC form, you can sell it for cash to somebody else and CCP has to honour it regardless of current owner. When it's in PLEX form, as long as you push apply, CCP chooses to honour it because otherwise it would lead to a riot. When a PLEX is destroyed or otherwise lost due to actions intentionally made by the player or lack of those, regardless of whether unaware or fully aware of the risks, that obligation vanishes. It's as if you bought a physical GTC and lit it on fire with a match, or forgot it in a public place. CCP has no obligations towards YOU, the former owner of the GTC either. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Kerrisone	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:43:00 - [56] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Akita T You're just being intentionally dense now, and you know that just as well. At least argue about something that would have a purpose other than arguing for the sake of argument. So, what happens to that "financial liability" that hasnt been fulfilled for 30 days gametime then? It looms over CCP's heads until it is used by a player in one way or the other, the 'threat' is that they(stockpiled plex) replace 'new' income ie subscriptions, so current income 'drops'. CCP is the culprit in all this mess, they could easily see PLEX stockpiling up yet they did nothing to slow or stop it, ie limits on the number of plex to be 'created' ingame, ending plex every now and then, instituting expirations on PLEX. They decided to take the 'loan' and run so to speak. The smart thing would have been to reinvest a good portion of that money they got 'for nothing' ie it wasn't really a liability for $17 as the actual cost of running/maintaining EVE isn't what we pay for it at any 'profitable' number it must be less or EVE would have shut down. Putting that 'loan' money into retaining new players and making old/current ones stay longer/be happy would have been one of the better ways to invest that money. The other is to diversify and invest in other money making ventures but not overextending yourself to 'depend' on that extra money. We can all have our opinions on how successful CCP was/is on getting any of those things done but the fact remains that CCP has themselves to blame for 'too many plex'.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:45:00 - [57] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Akita T You're just being intentionally dense now, and you know that just as well. At least argue about something that would have a purpose other than arguing for the sake of argument. So, what happens to that "financial liability" that hasnt been fulfilled for 30 days gametime then? As long as it's in GTC form, you can sell it for cash to somebody else and CCP has to honour it regardless of current owner. When it's in PLEX form, as long as you push apply, CCP chooses to honour it because otherwise it would lead to a riot. When a PLEX is destroyed or otherwise lost due to actions intentionally made by the player or lack of those, regardless of whether unaware or fully aware of the risks, that obligation vanishes. It's as if you bought a physical GTC and lit it on fire with a match, or forgot it in a public place. CCP has no obligations towards YOU, the former owner of the GTC either. I can set a Fait currency note on fire here and even with the little serioal number I can get it replaced at a bank. Even fait currencies that have been deemed no longer valud, even 100 year old notes. I can get their value replaced at a bank. Doesn't matter if it is defaced, and almost destroyed The bank still has the obligation. Still i want to see the submitted reports they have to give. I am sure they are available at the register, even for a small fee. If i knew where that was lol. I will search further for the register.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:46:00 - [58] Originally by: Miilla So, where can I get their company reports to see these "financial liabilities" we can tell from the numbers if PLEX really are liabilities easily. a) Any obligations to render (an otherwise paid-for) service a company has due to past sales are financial liabilities, by definition. b) As long as a PLEX exists, any owner can choose to apply it towards gametime, and CCP can not afford to not honour that, so for all practical intents and purposes, it's as good as an obligation once that choice is made. From a and b follows c) a PLEX is a potential financial liability. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:47:00 - [59] Originally by: Mocam As far as I am aware, you buy GTC's and they are converted to PLEX. I haven't seen the ability to buy PLEX directly for $$ but it may be out there. Recently the buddy system was given the ability to get a PLEX so there is 1 additional source but it is not reflected in those 6 month old numbers. ;)
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:48:00 - [60] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:51:26 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla So, where can I get their company reports to see these "financial liabilities" we can tell from the numbers if PLEX really are liabilities easily. a) Any obligations to render (an otherwise paid-for) service a company has due to past sales are financial liabilities, by definition. b) As long as a PLEX exists, any owner can choose to apply it towards gametime, and CCP can not afford to not honour that, so for all practical intents and purposes, it's as good as an obligation once that choice is made. From a and b follows c) a PLEX is a potential financial liability. And financial liabilities have to be repaid as a debt if they are in receivership, liquidators going to give 30 days gametime? Nope, they going to give the fait currency back? Lets do this scenario So here I am , holding 50 plex, CCP get liquidated, I didn't PAY fait currency for those PLEX, now the liquidator has to pay me the fait currency in lew of the 30 days game time they can no longer provide. It is a financial debt / obligation. If so; it is very profitible to ingame buy all ingame obligations until they go into receivership and get liquidated. could be big money in that if you get your debts claim submitted.

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:50:00 - [61] Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 20:52:49 Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 20:51:49 Originally by: Miilla Still i want to see the submitted reports they have to give. I am sure they are available at the register, even for a small fee. If i knew where that was lol. I will search further for the register. Really old ones: ~~http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/www/ccpgames/pdf/CCP_registration_2.pdf~~ Still better than nothing. EDIT : hmm, appears files is no longer there. Searching for mirrors. EDIT2 : Found it. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/OTHER/CCP_registration_2.pdf _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:51:00 - [62] Edited by: Terrante on 18/06/2011 20:51:58 edit: see above post
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:53:00 - [63] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:53:28 Read my last scenario for liquidation profiting then. technically if that is the case, then the holder of a STOCKPILE of PLEXs can get their finaincial debt repaid by a liquidator. If it is a financial liability.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:54:00 - [64] Originally by: Miilla Read my last scenarion for liquidation profiting then. Fine, a POTENTIAL financial liability. Only for revenue reduction purposes, and only when people choose to apply it in-game for gametime. Not for liquidation purposes, not for reclaiming purposes, not for any other possible purposes whatsoever. Now stop this nonsense. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:56:00 - [65] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla Read my last scenarion for liquidation profiting then. Fine, a POTENTIAL financial liability. Only for revenue reduction purposes, and only when people choose to apply it in-game for gametime. Not for liquidation purposes, not for reclaiming purposes, not for any other possible purposes whatsoever. Now stop this nonsense. But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:53:28 Read my last scenario for liquidation profiting then. technically if that is the case, then the holder of a STOCKPILE of PLEXs can get their finaincial debt repaid by a liquidator. If it is a financial liability. Yeah but depending of what is left at the time of liquidation you may get nothing, same as any other guy holding an iou from CCP. Plus don't forget. If you bought the PLEX ingame with ISK, how are you going to proof to the liquidator that you are holding them? They do not physically exist. Just a number somewhere in a CCP database.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:58:00 - [67] Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:53:28 Read my last scenario for liquidation profiting then. technically if that is the case, then the holder of a STOCKPILE of PLEXs can get their finaincial debt repaid by a liquidator. If it is a financial liability. Yeah but depending of what is left at the time of liquidation you may get nothing, same as any other guy holding an iou from CCP. Plus don't forget. If you bought the PLEX ingame with ISK, how are you going to proof to the liquidator that you are holding them? They do not physically exist. Just a number somewhere in a CCP database. Yes, the database. that CAN be used in that case. It is a record of the owners of the liability and their financial statements show the total liabilities. Not hard to do. The destruction of the database would be a criminal offense in that case as it is a record of ownership of liabilities.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 20:59:00 - [68] Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid. You're free to try to go to court with that. Your return will most likely be at most 45 to 52.50 USD (or EUR). If even that. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:00:00 - [69] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:01:05 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid. You're free to try to go to court with that. Your return will most likely be at most 45 to 52.50 USD (or EUR). If even that. you have to submit your claim to the liquidator with all the rest of the debtors. But the process is the same. If you are careful record keeping enough, that COULD be the next profiting for failing MMO's with "financial liabilities" in game.
Kerrisone	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:02:00 - [70] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla Read my last scenarion for liquidation profiting then. Fine, a POTENTIAL financial liability. Only for revenue reduction purposes, and only when people choose to apply it in-game for gametime. Not for liquidation purposes, not for reclaiming purposes, not for any other possible purposes whatsoever. Now stop this nonsense. But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid. Obligation ends when you get your GTC or PLEX in game, you paid money and got what they promised you. Anything after that falls under the TOS/EULA of the game, if the company/games goes under you get squat. If you didn't get your GTC/PLEX when you paid for it you can seek that money back but not once you've gotten the item chosen not to do anything with it and the company goes under or the game shuts down. From that point on you are probably SOL to get a refund for a service that is no longer offered which is almost always mentioned in TOS/EULA that they don't have to refund you if they are out of business or shut down the service.

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:02:00 - [71] Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 21:03:08 So who cares ? It only has the vague possibility of having any meaning if CCP//EVE goes under. And your changes are slim as fudge. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:03:00 - [72] Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid. Keep in mind that you don't actually own the PLEX; as any other in-game item, it remains property of CCP.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:03:00 - [73] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:03:03 Originally by: Akita T So who cares ? It only has any meaning if CCP//EVE goes under. Just extrapolating :) or as Cylons say, "projecting". :)
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:03:00 - [74] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:01:05 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid. You're free to try to go to court with that. Your return will most likely be at most 45 to 52.50 USD (or EUR). If even that. you have to submit your claim to the liquidator with all the rest of the debtors. But the process is the same. If you are careful record keeping enough, that COULD be the next profiting for failing MMO's with "financial liabilities" in game. Yes. If you are a gambler I'd say go for it. You can actually do the same thing in RL with Junk-Bonds or Greek IOU's
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:05:00 - [75] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:05:37 Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid. Keep in mind that you don't actually own the PLEX; as any other in-game item, it remains property of CCP. You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either. It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards. Heh Junk bonds CAN be VERY profitable if you do it right. Don't be deterred by the term JUNK, I am actually watching Irish Junk Bonds currently.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:06:00 - [76] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid. Keep in mind that you don't actually own the PLEX; as any other in-game item, it remains property of CCP. You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either. It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards. EVE EULA, #14 "LIMITATION OF LIABILITY Except as set forth below, CCP's maximum liability for any and all claims arising out of or in connection with your Account, the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content, EULA, and any other services or materials provided in connection therewith, shall not exceed an amount equal to the value of one (1) month's subscription fees. In the event of a material breach of CCP's obligations to provide access to and use of your Account, the System, Game, Game Content or User Content, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a refund of any pre-paid subscription fees attributable to the period during which you were denied such access and use, or an amount equal to the value of three (3) months' subscription fees, whichever is less. In the event of a malfunction of or your inability to use the CD-ROM containing the Software, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a replacement disk from the vendor that provided the CD-ROM in accordance with its replacement policy; CCP shall have no liability for the CD-ROM. If any of the foregoing disclaimers or limitations of liability are declared to be void or unenforceable, then CCP's liability shall be limited to the maximum extent permissible under applicable law. The remedies set forth herein are exclusive and in lieu of all other remedies, oral or written, express or implied." _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:08:00 - [77] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:08:48 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid. Keep in mind that you don't actually own the PLEX; as any other in-game item, it remains property of CCP. You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either. It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards. EVE EULA, #14 "LIMITATION OF LIABILITY Except as set forth below, CCP's maximum liability for any and all claims arising out of or in connection with your Account, the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content, EULA, and any other services or materials provided in connection therewith, shall not exceed an amount equal to the value of one (1) month's subscription fees. In the event of a material breach of CCP's obligations to provide access to and use of your Account, the System, Game, Game Content or User Content, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a refund of any pre-paid subscription fees attributable to the period during which you were denied such access and use, or an amount equal to the value of three (3) months' subscription fees, whichever is less. In the event of a malfunction of or your inability to use the CD-ROM containing the Software, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a replacement disk from the vendor that provided the CD-ROM in accordance with its replacement policy; CCP shall have no liability for the CD-ROM. If any of the foregoing disclaimers or limitations of liability are declared to be void or unenforceable, then CCP's liability shall be limited to the maximum extent permissible under applicable law. The remedies set forth herein are exclusive and in lieu of all other remedies, oral or written, express or implied." Which could be challenged. Many many times, what a company claims and says, has been countered in court and found incorrect. Just whether you pursue it or not depends on what you think you have to gain, if you think you could gain a lot, go for it.
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:09:00 - [78] Originally by: Miilla Heh Junk bonds CAN be VERY profitable if you do it right. Don't be deterred by the term JUNK, I am actually watching Irish Junk Bonds currently. Indeed, very profitale. But the risk is there Also: Just imagine you stocked PLEX by the hundreds and suddenly CCP decides to put an expiry date on them In the middle of the game they change the rules. Oh, that actually sounds familiar...
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Miilla You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either. It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards. I do own the bank note. I can never own a PLEX.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Miilla Heh Junk bonds CAN be VERY profitable if you do it right. Don't be deterred by the term JUNK, I am actually watching Irish Junk Bonds currently. Indeed, very profitale. But the risk is there Also: Just imagine you stocked PLEX by the hundreds and suddenly CCP decides to put an expiry date on them In the middle of the game they change the rules. Oh, that actually sounds familiar... "fluid/changing" contracts are deemed illegal in lots of EU countries. There has been cases here in this member state (yes I know Iceland is EEA but it is still very aligned in many ways with regards to commerce) where contracts for services HAVE been challenged and ruled against the contracter.

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:11:00 - [81] Last time I checked, even shrink-wrap EULAs have started being valid in court. This one is not quite a shrink-wrap EULA, and you have to occasionally re-agree with it. Good luck challenging it. By the way, you'll also probably going to need an Icelandic lawyer. Oh, and in case you think of not judging this in Iceland, get in line behind the UK crying for refunds after the Icelandic banks collapsed. _ Make ISK\|\|Build\|\|React\|\|1k papercuts
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:12:00 - [82] Originally by: Akita T ... Good luck challenging it. By the way, you'll also probably going to need an Icelandic lawyer. Oh, and in case you think of not judging this in Iceland, get in line behind the UK crying for refunds after the Icelandic banks collapsed. QFT
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:18:00 - [83] One thing I am curious about is how often PLEX ends up destroyed in somebody's cargo hold.. Much like the 74 PLEX in the Kestrel... With those, CCP essentially gets money for nothing... They are destroyed just like any other item and the only party that ends up with anything from it is CCP.
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:19:00 - [84] Originally by: JC Anderson One thing I am curious about is how often PLEX ends up destroyed in somebody's cargo hold.. Much like the 74 PLEX in the Kestrel... With those, CCP essentially gets money for nothing... They are destroyed just like any other item and the only party that ends up with anything from it is CCP. I'll bet you anything you want, that CCP will never make that figure public
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:20:00 - [85] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:25:14 Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either. It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards. I do own the bank note. I can never own a PLEX. You will find that the bank owns the copyright of the banknotes, not you. It is just that, a promisary note. You will also find that the banknotes have a time limit and they get recalled periodically for various reasons. Prevention of diseases, anti fraud, reissuing etc.
JC Anderson Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:21:00 - [86] Originally by: Terrante Originally by: JC Anderson One thing I am curious about is how often PLEX ends up destroyed in somebody's cargo hold.. Much like the 74 PLEX in the Kestrel... With those, CCP essentially gets money for nothing... They are destroyed just like any other item and the only party that ends up with anything from it is CCP. I'll bet you anything you want, that CCP will never make that figure public Yeah I am going to have to agree with you on that one.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:22:00 - [87] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:22:58 Originally by: JC Anderson Originally by: Terrante Originally by: JC Anderson One thing I am curious about is how often PLEX ends up destroyed in somebody's cargo hold.. Much like the 74 PLEX in the Kestrel... With those, CCP essentially gets money for nothing... They are destroyed just like any other item and the only party that ends up with anything from it is CCP. I'll bet you anything you want, that CCP will never make that figure public Yeah I am going to have to agree with you on that one. It should be deducable from their finance reports if you can find the register and factor out all their other liabilities and check with the ingame markets and perhaps killboards.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:25:00 - [88] Originally by: Miilla You will find that the bank owns the copyright of the banknotes, not you. It is just that, a promisary note. \ Sure, it owns the copyright. Copyright is not transferable where I am, they could not give it to me even if they wanted to. How does that matter? I don't want to print more bank notes.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:26:00 - [89] Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla You will find that the bank owns the copyright of the banknotes, not you. It is just that, a promisary note. \ Sure, it owns the copyright. Copyright is not transferable where I am, they could not give it to me even if they wanted to. How does that matter? I don't want to print more bank notes. You will also find that the banknotes have a time limit and they get recalled periodically for various reasons. Prevention of diseases, anti fraud, reissuing etc.
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:29:00 - [90] Edited by: Terrante on 18/06/2011 21:29:52 Originally by: Miilla It should be deducable from their finance reports if you can find the register and factor out all their other liabilities and check with the ingame markets and perhaps killboards. Yeah, prolly could. But I don't know if you can find a public register of their financial reports. Wouldn't know what Icelandic law is in respect of privatly held companies. It just came to me by the way, that PLEX are prolly CCP accountant's worst nightmare. They are basically a liability without an expiry date on them. So if the PLEX stockpile gets huge there is a chance of the liabilty becomming too high, plus it would prolly severly disrupt the cash-flow CCP gets. It would have been much better from a CCP viewpoint to have put expiry dates on all of the PLEX.

Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:33:00 - [91] Originally by: Miilla You will also find that the banknotes have a time limit and they get recalled periodically for various reasons. Prevention of diseases, anti fraud, reissuing etc. No, I won't. They are not allowed to have a time limit here. Recalls do not affect my private stash at all.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:35:00 - [92] Originally by: Terrante Edited by: Terrante on 18/06/2011 21:29:52 Originally by: Miilla It should be deducable from their finance reports if you can find the register and factor out all their other liabilities and check with the ingame markets and perhaps killboards. Yeah, prolly could. But I don't know if you can find a public register of their financial reports. Wouldn't know what Icelandic law is in respect of privatly held companies. It just came to me by the way, that PLEX are prolly CCP accountant's worst nightmare. They are basically a liability without an expiry date on them. So if the PLEX stockpile gets huge there is a chance of the liabilty becomming too high, plus it would prolly severly disrupt the cash-flow CCP gets. It would have been much better from a CCP viewpoint to have put expiry dates on all of the PLEX. No, they should just keep GTC's and keep plex as an INGAME Item, nothign special (as they say on their wiki and new undockability feature of PLEXs and this is what I think they are trying to do really). When you get a GTC, it is between you and the retailer under trading law (in the UK for example), then it is up to the retailer to handle THEIR supplier, your trade was with the retailer, not CCP. Now, if we purchased GTC's then CONVERTED them to ingame items, we have therefore removed the financial liability. No need for timelimits.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:38:00 - [93] Originally by: Miilla Now, if we purchased GTC's then CONVERTED them to ingame items, we have therefore removed the financial liability. I doubt there is a difference. When you buy a PLEX directly from CCP, you're explicitly buying an "ingame item that can be used to pay for your subscription". You're not buying game time. There is no liability.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:39:00 - [94] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:40:36 Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla You will also find that the banknotes have a time limit and they get recalled periodically for various reasons. Prevention of diseases, anti fraud, reissuing etc. No, I won't. They are not allowed to have a time limit here. Recalls do not affect my private stash at all. When I say time limit I mean lifetime, I don't mean it loses its face value over time, the bank will redeem the old note for a new NOTE AT THE SAME FACE VALUE. Sure you will lose due to inflation :). You can trade that note with collectors for higher value, but the face value remains at the point of redemption at that issuing bank.
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:42:00 - [95] Originally by: Miilla When I say time limit I mean lifetime, I don't mean it loses its face value over time, the bank will redeem the old note for a new NOTE AT THE SAME FACE VALUE. Sure you will lose due to inflation :). Sure, it will redeem it if I ask them. How is this relevant? I am not obliged to exchange old notes for new ones. It's convenient that I can, since they might change the legal tender again if the Euro fails or something, but I don't have to.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:44:00 - [96] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:45:09 Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla When I say time limit I mean lifetime, I don't mean it loses its face value over time, the bank will redeem the old note for a new NOTE AT THE SAME FACE VALUE. Sure you will lose due to inflation :). Sure, it will redeem it if I ask them. How is this relevant? I am not obliged to exchange old notes for new ones. It's convenient that I can, since they might change the legal tender again if the Euro fails or something, but I don't have to. See my other comments from the BoE website? All banks are aiming at one goal, remove linking from physical metals (Gold). They have done this by and large yet people still think the notes are promisary notes to get a value of metal. Nope. Not now. That is why they are called fait currencies, THE "PROMISE" HAS NO LONGER THE SAME MEANING as it did when it was "linked" to gold. Go ask a Brit if their money is linked to gold, most confuse the TREASURY for GOLD. Nope. 2 different things, sure the BoE is back by the TREASURY, so is BONDS, but not gold.
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:47:00 - [97] Originally by: Miilla See my other comments from the BoE website? All banks are aiming at one goal, remove linking from physical metals (Gold). They have done this by and large yet people still think the notes are promisary notes to get a value of metal. Nope. Not now. That is why they are called fait currencies, THE "PROMISE" HAS NO LONGER THE SAME MEANING as it did when it was "linked" to gold. Go ask a Brit if their money is linked to gold, most confuse the TREASURY for GOLD. Nope. 2 different things, sure the BoE is back by the TREASURY, so is BONDS, but not gold. Yes, basically a banknote is nothing but a piece of paper in which we trust to get something for
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:49:00 - [98] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:51:45 Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Miilla See my other comments from the BoE website? All banks are aiming at one goal, remove linking from physical metals (Gold). They have done this by and large yet people still think the notes are promisary notes to get a value of metal. Nope. Not now. That is why they are called fait currencies, THE "PROMISE" HAS NO LONGER THE SAME MEANING as it did when it was "linked" to gold. Go ask a Brit if their money is linked to gold, most confuse the TREASURY for GOLD. Nope. 2 different things, sure the BoE is back by the TREASURY, so is BONDS, but not gold. Yes, basically a banknote is nothing but a piece of paper in which we trust to get something for Yes, it is amazing the amount of ignorance by the public by and large with regard to what they value most. MONEY. How does one control a person, by their debts How does one control a legal entity, by their debts How does one control a bank, by their debts. see a pattern.. And yes people have taken on banks playign their own game, and the bank panics, and they win. You just have to be knowledgable and willing to play their game on them. I can get links if you want where this has happened recently, a guy foreclosed on a BANK that owned him money, he siezed the BANK LEGALLY!
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:52:00 - [99] Originally by: Miilla Yes, it is amazing the amount of ignorance by the public by and large with regard to what they value most. MONEY. As opposed to EVE. Why are ppl stockpiling PLEX or TechII BPO's. Because they do not fully trust ISK. At least if you have massive amounts of ISK
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:53:00 - [100] Originally by: Terrante Originally by: Miilla Yes, it is amazing the amount of ignorance by the public by and large with regard to what they value most. MONEY. As opposed to EVE. Why are ppl stockpiling PLEX or TechII BPO's. Because they do not fully trust ISK. At least if you have massive amounts of ISK I have a stockpile of these wonka tickets.. erm "financial liabiltiies"...

Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:55:00 - [101] Originally by: Miilla See my other comments from the BoE website? All banks are aiming at one goal, remove linking from physical metals (Gold). They have done this by and large yet people still think the notes are promisary notes to get a value of metal. Nope. Not now. That is why they are called fait currencies, THE "PROMISE" HAS NO LONGER THE SAME MEANING as it did when it was "linked" to gold. Sorry, but I never thought that. The gold standard is long past. It was abandoned in the 1930ies and 1940ies because it failed. The successor system (Bretton Woods: currencies tied to US dollar which was convertible to gold) failed in the 1970ies and was likewise abandoned. This is old. I don't know whether Brits confuse treasury with gold since it is not one of the topics that I typically discuss with the Brits I know.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 21:57:00 - [102] Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:58:57 Originally by: Saving Face Originally by: Miilla See my other comments from the BoE website? All banks are aiming at one goal, remove linking from physical metals (Gold). They have done this by and large yet people still think the notes are promisary notes to get a value of metal. Nope. Not now. That is why they are called fait currencies, THE "PROMISE" HAS NO LONGER THE SAME MEANING as it did when it was "linked" to gold. Sorry, but I never thought that. The gold standard is long past. It was abandoned in the 1930ies and 1940ies because it failed. The successor system (Bretton Woods: currencies tied to US dollar which was convertible to gold) failed in the 1970ies and was likewise abandoned. This is old. I don't know whether Brits confuse treasury with gold since it is not one of the topics that I typically discuss with the Brits I know. Go to the government savings site in the UK for Bonds (including premium bonds), they claim your purchase is safe, because it is Backed by the TREASURY. you never hear the word gold, or anything else for that matter, but its all safe, it is backed by yet another legal entity. I love threads like this that go on and on because it makes people run off to research more troll ammo, and then they (myself included) find out something they didn't know or realise a misconception they had.
Camallll	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:01:00 - [103] wtf is this thread about? and who cares about how many people buy plexes? is this some sort of "i dont like microtranscations/aurum" thread in a camouflage?
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:02:00 - [104] Originally by: Camallll wtf is this thread about? and who cares about how many people buy plexes? is this some sort of "i dont like microtranscations/aurum" thread in a camouflage? So why did you post again?
Camallll	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:03:00 - [105] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Camallll wtf is this thread about? and who cares about how many people buy plexes? is this some sort of "i dont like microtranscations/aurum" thread in a camouflage? So why did you post again? so why did you start this thread again?
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:04:00 - [106] Originally by: Camallll Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Camallll wtf is this thread about? and who cares about how many people buy plexes? is this some sort of "i dont like microtranscations/aurum" thread in a camouflage? So why did you post again? so why did you start this thread again? The thread never ended, it only ends when its locked.
Camallll	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:05:00 - [107] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1529950 yeah, you seem used to that.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:08:00 - [108] Originally by: Camallll http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1529950 yeah, you seem used to that. Shouldn't you be playing Eve?
Saving Face	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:11:00 - [109] Originally by: Miilla Go to the government savings site in the UK for Bonds (including premium bonds), they claim your purchase is safe, because it is Backed by the TREASURY. you never hear the word gold, or anything else for that matter, but its all safe, it is backed by yet another legal entity. Sorry, I don't know where you are going with this. Any bank that tries to sell you bonds claims it is safe because they back it ;-)
Camallll	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:13:00 - [110] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Camallll http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1529950 yeah, you seem used to that. Shouldn't you be playing Eve? You are surely not playing it by the amounts of whine threads you are opening here. if you are unhappy with the game, please just unsub, leave us alone and stop spamming this board. p.s: you can take akita t and lady spank with you. p.p.s: have fun playing WoT! p.p.p.s:i like how you didnt answer to my link because that thread there is the same as this one just with another title and it got locked a long time ago...as you know..

Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:14:00 - [111] Originally by: Camallll Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Camallll http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1529950 yeah, you seem used to that. Shouldn't you be playing Eve? You are surely not playing it by the amounts of whine threads you are opening here. if you are unhappy with the game, please just unsub, leave us alone and stop spamming this board. p.s: you can take akita t and lady spank with you. p.p.s: have fun playing WoT! p.p.p.s:i like how you didnt answer to my link because that thread there is the same as this one just with another title and it got locked a long time ago...as you know.. Keep bumping :)
Ender Shadow	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:22:00 - [112] It should be noted that PLEX is LEGAL way for players to buy ISK for real money. Not to increase their own subscription time. Its a lot less expensive to purchase 6 month subscription extension for $71.70 than 6 PLEX pack for $105. So once PLEX /GTC gets bought and is brought into the game. It is traded on market, or contracts, or trade window for ISK. At that point the original buyer of the PLEXes got what he wanted - ISK and does not care what happens to the PLEX. Now the PLEX is either used by a player to add game time to account or stockpiled/traded by the "speculators" as in buy low sell high crowd. If you go and stockpile 100 PLEXes in-game it has ISK value and that's all. When its used for account subscription extension it seems its like you spending real money at that point but its NOT real money. If CCP folds you think it is likely you get real cash back for those 100 PLEXes ? Dream on, you "Paid" ISK for em NOT real cash. Will you be asking for 100 x 380 mil ISK (at current EVE market average) or 38 billion ISK converted to real world currency? It be interesting how you would derive the conversion factor for ISK to real currency.
Roderak Pleem Minmatar Abandoned Land	Posted - 2011.06.18 22:34:00 - [113] TL;DR Miilla has purchased a LOT of PLEX to sell for a profit for vanity items, and is wondering if she should hold onto some just in case CCP goes under (and hopefully get a couple bucks/euros back if they do...)


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