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dark liquidity in the eve broker system

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Florestan Bronstein draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.20 11:04:00 - [1] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 20/06/2011 11:04:20 I remember reading that expired market orders are only purged from the broker system during downtime but go invisible on their proper expiration date/time. Can anyone confirm that this behavior is still in place? This would allow for the setup of hidden orders within the broker system: place the original order just after downtime & set duration to one day - the order will vanish after 24h and stay up as a hidden order for another 23h. What are useful applications for this technique? It certainly is very limiting that modifying an order resets its expiration date (so the order has to be visible for at least 24h with its true price) but maybe there still are applications in certain market conditions... just curious if anyone has good ideas how to (ab)use this mechanic (if it still exists)... As VV can probably attest dark liquidity can be a great tool to screw over other traders (who can't see the full order book) in real-life markets...
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.06.20 13:58:00 - [2] Umm why dont you just check it yourself. This would be very easy to check. I have never looked at it but I doubt the exploit you suggest would work. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Saiph Industries SRS.	Posted - 2011.06.20 16:47:00 - [3] I can think of a number of uses for this mechanic, I'm simply too gosh-darned lazy to utilize them.
Bom Barley	Posted - 2011.06.20 17:39:00 - [4] Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I can think of a number of uses for this mechanic, I'm simply too gosh-darned lazy to utilize them. I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this margin is too narrow to contain
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.20 19:31:00 - [5] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 20/06/2011 11:04:20 I remember reading that expired market orders are only purged from the broker system during downtime but go invisible on their proper expiration date/time. Can anyone confirm that this behavior is still in place? This would allow for the setup of hidden orders within the broker system: place the original order just after downtime & set duration to one day - the order will vanish after 24h and stay up as a hidden order for another 23h. What are useful applications for this technique? It certainly is very limiting that modifying an order resets its expiration date (so the order has to be visible for at least 24h with its true price) but maybe there still are applications in certain market conditions... just curious if anyone has good ideas how to (ab)use this mechanic (if it still exists)... As VV can probably attest dark liquidity can be a great tool to screw over other traders (who can't see the full order book) in real-life markets... Well, I suppose you are talking about those so called "iceberg orders", where the regular traders see say 500 contracts on the book while there are more 5000 sitting at the same price. That's a feature used by dealers (wholesale contract traders) and dedicated brokers (specialized in 3rd partying huge institutional orders on a person by person basis). Without this mechanism, liquidating huge stacks would be a long and painful venture, to spread over many orders at different prices. But yes, it may be and it is used to also screw up other traders. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente Saiph Industries SRS.	Posted - 2011.06.20 20:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Bom Barley Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane I can think of a number of uses for this mechanic, I'm simply too gosh-darned lazy to utilize them. I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this margin is too narrow to contain QFT (and because I love the reference in general).
Multipack McHappy	Posted - 2011.06.21 20:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Well, I suppose you are talking about those so called "iceberg orders", where the regular traders see say 500 contracts on the book while there are more 5000 sitting at the same price. doesn't sound like icebergs to me - its not got a visible tranche of it on the depth? sounds more like the LSE's dark/hidden order types to me.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2011.06.21 21:03:00 - [8] It doesn't work. Always consider - If you can think of it, someone else has already attempted it. The order disappears from the market screen for everyone and is not active. Meaning only active orders are retained on the market, there is no hidden order you can buy/sell to that doesn't show up on the market. Here is what I attempted several years ago after coming across an order that would sit out there, (Broken Order) I asked about it and was told it's a bug in which the order doesn't get removed until downtime. So I had a very similar thought to you, and tried to exploit the mechanic. I place in a remote system (Outpost) a 24 hour order for 40 way over priced trit and 40 cheap trit, 40 mid price trit. It expired and sure enough they disappeared one at a time about 3 minutes apart. However, each time I tried to buy trit, it literally purchased it from just the order showing for the price showing. This was tried with Direct or Brokered buy requests, (I tested them both). I tried with buy orders as well, placed several buy orders for trit and tried to sell trit to them once one expired, same thing, the visible active order was the one that filled. And yeah, even if the entire market had no buy orders (Filled all the visible orders and attempting a sell again). Again I tested both direct and brokered sells. Mind you, these experiments where done YEARS ago, I can't imagine them changing the mechanic. Although bugs do work their way into the system, so I guess it's possible. The "purge" that takes place is the return of unsold goods, and the return of un-used Escrow. I'm guessing CCP simply remove them from the active market but only purge dead records once a day. Which makes sense from a database load perspective. You don't want to yank records from an actively used database. Here is some supporting data for this too. You create an order, cancel it, create an order for exactly the same thing, you get a new order number. This pretty much tells me that orders that get canceled are held on the database until downtime to be purged. Why CCP don't return good for sell orders, and escrow for buy orders is unusual, it might have something to do with the server removing the order rather then the user removing it. Amarr for Life

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