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Stealth Nerf to Bot Fleets?

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Dradius Calvantia Gallente Aelisian Navy	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:00:00 - [1] So, I have not been able to read an Incarna related thread with out stumbling over at least a few posts about how the SiSi Incarna build is causing people's computers to overheat or preform poorly while running multiple clients. What is more disturbing is the number of accounts some of these people seem to think they are entitled to be able to run concurrently. I have seen players get genuinely upset over their computer failing to run 8 or more clients simultaneously. IMHO, this is absurd. I have never been a very big fan of multiple accounts, but I understand the need for having one or two alts given the current game mechanics. However, I fail to see any legitimate reason for running 8 accounts. Yes, I know people do it, and I have come to terms with it. What I do not get, though is why players seem to feel that they should be able to run this many accounts on sub par equipment forever. If you absolutely must abuse the game mechanics like this, you can expect to have to shell out top dollar for computer equipment that can actually do it. IMO, the group of players which this will hurt the most is the one running multiple bot accounts at the same time. I would venture to guess that vast majority of the players running more than two or three accounts at the same time are botters. I am not saying that all players who do are, but I fail to see very many legitimate reasons for 8 accounts. I am actually hoping that the increased toll on performance from SiSi is not just a result of lack of optimization from that build, and we really do see the same thing once the expansion goes live on Tranq. Maybe we will actually see a drop in the number of bots polluting the EVE serves...
trenny jr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:04:00 - [2] oh you mean thoes bots that dont use the client anyway and have hacked clients that run on no ui at all? im sure they will totaly have problems Originally by: Alticius Espionicus Ankhesentapemkah: the Sarah Palin of EVE. [00:18:49] Lady Spank > /emote squiggles
Riddick Liddell	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:05:00 - [3] 16 bit color instead of 32. 4 clients smooth
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:07:00 - [4] Your logic is flawed. The only people that the performance demands hurt are the players. The botters to large extent are business oriented RMT. They'll upgrade. A lot of people are either unwilling or unable to do so.
Thor79 Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:21:00 - [5] Edited by: Thor79 on 21/06/2011 17:24:11 Yeah this will probably hurt people running multiple clients....the graphics I will have to run on my server after the patch will probably be far reduced to get it to run 5 clients smoothly at the same time. I reserve the good graphics for my primary computer, which runs my squad leader, which I always need to have with no lag (graphics or otherwise) to be able to squad warp as soon as hostiles arrive in system (surprise surprise, regular miners do this too in hostile space, we're just more likely to hop in a combat ship and try to pop your ass). For ice mining....I wouldn't mind having 8 clients....6 miners, 1 tanker, and 1 hauler (though that hauler would be very busy running back and forth). For ore mining though....6 clients (4 miners) is enough of a headache for me. No I do not bot with this many clients...I'm just an avid miner who has a lot of accounts and a need to produce a lot of minerals. While yes, it would be good if a performance hit meant fewer botters could be run....realistically....only regular miners will be affected by it. Botters (supported by RMT income) will just get another system and split the bots across them. Regular miners who can't afford a new system or another system will have to reduce the graphics to bare minimum or get rid of a client or two to be able to run them.
Dradius Calvantia Gallente Aelisian Navy	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:23:00 - [6] I am not saying that this will be a problem for the serious RMT business, but I do not believe that the majority of botting is done by entities running stripped out clients on huge computer clusters. It seems to me, the the largest segment of the botting community are the so called "casual" botters. The players who rent 0.0 space, run 5-10 ratting bots while they are at work, and pay the Alliance they rent from huge sums of ISK to be able to do so. The Alliance leadership may or may not be running RMT from those profits. This group of players will hopefully be severely impacted by increased performance costs for multiple clients. The dedicated and well funded RMT networks of course will be able to adapt to this, but the only way to get rid of those are to seriously go after client modifications and suspicious account behavior. As has been pointed out, it is fairly trivial to get two to four accounts to run on old hardware, even on the current SiSi build. What we are seeing is a greatly increased difficulty getting more than four clients running at the same time. I ask you, what legitimate game activity requires you to be able to use five or more accounts?
Thor79 Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Dradius Calvantia I ask you, what legitimate game activity requires you to be able to use five or more accounts? Mining....I am the sole dedicated miner in my corp at the moment....but I still need to produce plenty of minerals for production....so I need multiple hulks out there mining all those minerals. I run 6 accounts total to get that...4 miners, 1 hauler, 1 rat tanker. It's completely legitimate and I know several people in my alliance that have similar setups and do not bot.
trenny jr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Thor79 Originally by: Dradius Calvantia I ask you, what legitimate game activity requires you to be able to use five or more accounts? Mining....I am the sole dedicated miner in my corp at the moment....but I still need to produce plenty of minerals for production....so I need multiple hulks out there mining all those minerals. I run 6 accounts total to get that...4 miners, 1 hauler, 1 rat tanker. It's completely legitimate and I know several people in my alliance that have similar setups and do not bot. hey I know I'll scan that mission runner out but I hope he doesnt leave while I switch ships..... oh look another reason! Originally by: Alticius Espionicus Ankhesentapemkah: the Sarah Palin of EVE. [00:18:49] Lady Spank > /emote squiggles
Dradius Calvantia Gallente Aelisian Navy	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Thor79 Originally by: Dradius Calvantia I ask you, what legitimate game activity requires you to be able to use five or more accounts? Mining....I am the sole dedicated miner in my corp at the moment....but I still need to produce plenty of minerals for production....so I need multiple hulks out there mining all those minerals. I run 6 accounts total to get that...4 miners, 1 hauler, 1 rat tanker. It's completely legitimate and I know several people in my alliance that have similar setups and do not bot. Maybe your corp should recruit more miners then? I am sorry, but I believe that something is wrong with the profession when it becomes necessary to pay for 6 to 8 accounts in order for mining to be viable. In my opinion, only good things can come from less multi-boxing hulk fleets roaming the belts. If this change causes you to only be able to run 4 miners, then all that means is there is more room in the market for more competition. Sure, mineral prices will rise, but they need to anyway.
Dradius Calvantia Gallente Aelisian Navy	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:47:00 - [10] Originally by: trenny jr hey I know I'll scan that mission runner out but I hope he doesnt leave while I switch ships..... oh look another reason! not quite 4-5 but if I have 2 why shouldn't somonewho can afford 4-5 use them? expect for mining there is a limit to how many acounts can be used to do non afk things this doesn't mean you cant have need for more EG 3 gang link alts running one prober and your main in a dps ship Once again, I have to ask why you think that one player should be able to field all that? Your argument is that if a person can pay for more accounts, they should be able to use them. What is so wrong with the idea then, that the same player spending multiple times what one account costs, should not also have to spend multiple times what a computer to run one account costs? In both situations, the number of accounts is limited by what the player can afford. If the cost of using multiple accounts is higher, then the average number of accounts per player will go down. I personally see this as a positive thing for EVE game play. PS: If you need four or five accounts to gank one low sec mission runner, you are doing it wrong.

Jaroslav Unwanted	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Thor79 Originally by: Dradius Calvantia I ask you, what legitimate game activity requires you to be able to use five or more accounts? Mining....I am the sole dedicated miner in my corp at the moment....but I still need to produce plenty of minerals for production....so I need multiple hulks out there mining all those minerals. I run 6 accounts total to get that...4 miners, 1 hauler, 1 rat tanker. It's completely legitimate and I know several people in my alliance that have similar setups and do not bot. Your dedication is pretty low. I met dedicated miners with 18+ accoutns 2 rorquals and hulks. Just saying.. but as an miner you dont ussually dock any of those accounts ..apart of rorqual and then JF and Freighter that is.
daddys helper	Posted - 2011.06.21 17:51:00 - [12] now I would think a real for-profit bot fleet would consist of 1 overseer in a client and a bunch of 3rd party programs that pretend to be a client sending preset commands to the character/ship but not rendering video output. so no... no nerf here to botting
Dradius Calvantia Gallente Aelisian Navy	Posted - 2011.06.21 18:06:00 - [13] Originally by: daddys helper now I would think a real for-profit bot fleet would consist of 1 overseer in a client and a bunch of 3rd party programs that pretend to be a client sending preset commands to the character/ship but not rendering video output. so no... no nerf here to botting As has been pointed out after the OP, the way to go after bots using serious client modification is by performing checks on the integrity of the client. After listening to the security presentation from this years fan fest, I believe CCP are already doing this. This increase in performance requirements for multiple accounts will affect the "casual" botters running simple mouse movement macros. I believe that these botters make up the bulk of the botting community in EVE, and can also be some of the hardest to detect using normal methods. This will also have an effect on players who are not running bots, but who still run more than just a few accounts at the same time. This is a very small section of the EVE community. The argument that they pay more to get the advantage of large numbers of accounts is easily countered by the argument that now they will have to pay a bit more for the computer hardware as well. This will raise the cost of large numbers of accounts, and therefore lead to a drop in the number of players using so many alts. Whether this is a good thing or not is a matter of personal opinion, but mine is that the closer EVE comes to one account per player the better the game play will be.
Nah Ting Tooluze	Posted - 2011.06.21 18:08:00 - [14] So really what you are getting at is that the way you play Eve is not in line with the others that play Eve. You are going to start an "I believe I am elite" thread by stating some sorry excuse for an anti-bot campaign as the starting point. Your entire stance is that you don't like alts and that you are better and know, sorry, you believe you know better than everybody else. I'll give you a 1/10 for high-jacking your own thread.
S7E The Priesthood The 0rphanage	Posted - 2011.06.21 18:26:00 - [15] Lots of people have multiple accounts for multiple reasons in EVE, tbh you NEED 2 seperate accounts nowadays, if you want to be successful, for example: Most people will have their main...the one they created first, the one that has tried to do everything in eve, before realizing that doing everything in eve is going to take years, so they create alts to do things quicker. PVP alt Missioner alt Miner alt Diplomatic alt Logistic alt Scouting alt Invention alt Director alt and so on. There are valid reasons for people running multiple clients. Imagine your on your main doing something of importance, in which you can't log off...and your corp needs logistics done. Instead of cutting your time doing something on a main, you log on another client and do logi whilst your on your main. Maybe people who have PVP only chars want to run missions whilst pvp'ing, so they get an alt ready and drop them in a mission with i don't know drones out to catch the aggro...then they go on their pvp toon and go pvp. Just because people have multiple accounts doesnt mean they bot with them...just means there willing to put more time into running them. Although if you go to the new geminate your bot spotting needs will be fulfilled.
Thor79 Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.21 18:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Dradius Calvantia Originally by: Thor79 Originally by: Dradius Calvantia I ask you, what legitimate game activity requires you to be able to use five or more accounts? Mining....I am the sole dedicated miner in my corp at the moment....but I still need to produce plenty of minerals for production....so I need multiple hulks out there mining all those minerals. I run 6 accounts total to get that...4 miners, 1 hauler, 1 rat tanker. It's completely legitimate and I know several people in my alliance that have similar setups and do not bot. Maybe your corp should recruit more miners then? I am sorry, but I believe that something is wrong with the profession when it becomes necessary to pay for 6 to 8 accounts in order for mining to be viable. In my opinion, only good things can come from less multi-boxing hulk fleets roaming the belts. If this change causes you to only be able to run 4 miners, then all that means is there is more room in the market for more competition. Sure, mineral prices will rise, but they need to anyway. We're on the tail end of a move and lost a few miners for various reasons. We will be actively recruiting as soon as things settle down. And I agree...there is something wrong with the fact that the mining profession is so limited. I shouldn't have to run this many accounts to produce the minerals needed. The mining profession needs to be expanded into capital ships to be honest, but of course that would mean fleets of mining capital ships rather than hulks run by the botters...so noo...we can't have that. They drew the line and artificially limited the profession...so the only solution to meet the mineral demand is putting more miners to work.
Bodega Cat	Posted - 2011.06.21 18:38:00 - [17] They could just make it so mining isn't so autonomous. Then you can run all the clients you want if you can stand to actively work the lasers on all of em. Its just my opinion, but its too easy to scale up the clients endlessly if you've got the rocks to hit up. That would make it more interesting.
Mutnin Amarr Mutineers	Posted - 2011.06.21 18:44:00 - [18] Edited by: Mutnin on 21/06/2011 18:44:44 Originally by: Mr Kidd Your logic is flawed. The only people that the performance demands hurt are the players. The botters to large extent are business oriented RMT. They'll upgrade. A lot of people are either unwilling or unable to do so. I'm pretty sure these days it's not the actual RMT sites doing the botting they have made the transition to the "middle man". I'd be willing to bet, that most of the botting is done by the average players whom then sell ISK to the RMT sites.
Dradius Calvantia Gallente Aelisian Navy	Posted - 2011.06.21 18:48:00 - [19] Edited by: Dradius Calvantia on 21/06/2011 18:54:47 Originally by: Nah Ting Tooluze So really what you are getting at is that the way you play Eve is not in line with the others that play Eve. You are going to start an "I believe I am elite" thread by stating some sorry excuse for an anti-bot campaign as the starting point. Your entire stance is that you don't like alts and that you are better and know, sorry, you believe you know better than everybody else. I'll give you a 1/10 for high-jacking your own thread. No, the point of this thread and what "I am getting at" is that I believe an increase in performance requirements for more than a few clients running at the same time will negatively affect most casual botting players. I believe that bots, even casual ones, being screwed over can be universally considered a good thing. The point that this will also negatively effect players running large numbers of accounts with out botting on them was brought up, and I simply expressed my opinion on the subject. I openly admitted that this is another affect of a performance requirement increase. Whether this as a good thing, or a bad thing is a matter of personal opinion. My views on players running more than 3 or 4 accounts were clearly presented as my personal opinion, and I asked for the opinion of those who take the opposite view. This is a tangent to the original discussion, but one that is closely related and relevant. Edit: because I fail at grammar.
Alara IonStorm	Posted - 2011.06.21 18:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Thor79 And I agree...there is something wrong with the fact that the mining profession is so limited. I shouldn't have to run this many accounts to produce the minerals needed. The mining profession needs to be expanded into capital ships to be honest, but of course that would mean fleets of mining capital ships rather than hulks run by the botters...so noo...we can't have that. They drew the line and artificially limited the profession...so the only solution to meet the mineral demand is putting more miners to work. It is not the Mineral demand that is making Mining have a low profit margin. It is that the Market is already flooded, bots and people with 10 accounts Mine so much that there is inflation. Mineral Prices drop because the Supply outstrips the demand. Each Ship manufactured is a Mineral Sink but the ammount of these sinks does not keep up with the supply of new Minerals. Mining more will not make the situation better it will just drive down the payout of all the Miners. The last thing EVE needs is a greator Mineral Faucet like a Mining Capital.

Cpt Arareb Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.21 19:06:00 - [21] I suport this thread... and this: "Whether this is a good thing or not is a matter of personal opinion, but mine is that the closer EVE comes to one account per player the better the game play will be." BOTS ARE RUINING THIS GAME


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