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Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
7
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Posted - 2012.09.13 16:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hello Everyone!
I am calling on all of you to help us manifest a Miners Codex.
The idea behind it is to have a voluntary list of things that is expedient and a appropriate code of conduct for miners and industrials alike!
We have made a crude draft for this, and we ask all of you to chip in, and make this a community project.
Reason for this is twofold.
- We get a better codex
- There is a larger chance of people adhering to the codex.
The goal of the codex is to get some respect again from the community. We aren't all AFK/RMT/BOTTING etc.
But we do acknowledge that it is a problem.
Instead of whining about it, we thought it would be a good idea to be proactive instead.
So please, without further ado, let the brainstorming commence.
ORE IS CORE
Honesty
Integrity
Modesty
Loyalty
Civility
The Mining Code or Miners Codex is essentially a basic set of rules and guidelines, miners willingly chose to adhere to.
This is an open document, and will be regulated and modified based on input from the player base.
Rule 1
You will behave like a gentleman in all manners of conduct, interaction and trade.
- No smack, tears, grief or flames
- Do not take what is not yours (wrecks, loot, asteroids, rats)
- No scamming
- Bait, traps and cans.
Rule 2
You will remain in positive security standing and not willingly commit any acts of crime
- Always maintain a NHDS policy
Rule 3
You will only mine what you need
- Fields and ownership
- Need vs. Greed
- Stripping and cleaning
Rule 4
You will only sell what you need
- Sell order vs. buy order
- Need vs. Greed
- Maintaining stock
- Sink vs. Faucet
- Mineral Index
Rule 5
No AFK mining, RMTGÇÖing or botting. (Or any other violations of the EULA in any kind or way)
- This also includes giving others the impression of botting, RMTGÇÖing or AFK mining.
Rule 6
Give more than you take
- Give to your co-workers, corporation and alliance.
PS:
The idea is also to elaborate, and write a smallish article about each stub and what it implies.
I.e.
No smack, tears, grief or flames
Do not take what is not yours (wrecks, loot, asteroids, rats)
No scamming
Bait, traps and cans.
Always maintain a NHDS policy
Fields and ownership
Need vs. Greed
Stripping and cleaning
Sell order vs. buy order
Need vs. Greed
Maintaining stock
Sink vs. Faucet
Mineral Index
This also includes giving others the impression of botting, RMTGÇÖing or AFK mining.
Give to your co-workers, corporation and alliance.
PPS: Also feedback on the idea to create such a codex is more than welcome.
Please keep it civil and constructive.
Please don't derail the thread!
In advance thank you :) |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 16:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved* |
Robert De'Arneth
18
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Posted - 2012.09.13 17:36:00 -
[3] - Quote
I do not want to be rude to a fellow miner/gamer. But Eve is sandbox with no real rules, that is why I play. You lost me on Rule #1. and some of your other rules are not what will keep me playing!! Also, I could care less if anyone respects me and my gaming, their opinion is just that.
But I wish you luck in gathering people.  |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 17:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Robert De'Arneth wrote:I do not want to be rude to a fellow miner/gamer. But Eve is sandbox with no real rules, that is why I play. You lost me on Rule #1. and some of your other rules are not what will keep me playing!! Also, I could care less if anyone respects me and my gaming, their opinion is just that. But I wish you luck in gathering people.
Thank you for your feedback, I do acknowledge that this is not for everyone.
Also the prime ingredient in getting anyone to follow this is that it has to be voluntary to opt in :)
The issue about respect is a two way street.! (i.e. you get what you give) |
Styth spiting
Ion Corp.
NightSong Directorate
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 18:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hate to break it to you but many miners are simply alt's of players who couldn't care less about about anything involving mining other then the minerals and could care less about the industial "community" or codes of conduct.
The only thing I expect from miners is to stay out of other players belts, and if you see a ganker warn local. |
Styth spiting
Ion Corp.
NightSong Directorate
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 18:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:Hate to break it to you but many miners are simply alt's of players who couldn't care less about about anything involving mining other then the minerals and could care less about the industial "community" or codes of conduct.
The only thing I expect from miners is to stay out of other players belts, If you mine a roid finish it and if you see a ganker warn local.
|
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
7
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 18:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:Hate to break it to you but many miners are simply alt's of players who couldn't care less about about anything involving mining other then the minerals and could care less about the industial "community" or codes of conduct.
The only thing I expect from miners is to stay out of other players belts, and if you see a ganker warn local.
That is correct. This is not for them obviously.
This is for people that stands by what they are, and want to help create a better platform for us to work from :) |
Qorvis Communications
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
21
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Posted - 2012.09.13 18:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Weird. Silly. Pointless. Useless. Meaningless. I'm not even sure wtf this is. Did you sustain a concussion or something? |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
8
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 18:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Qorvis Communications wrote:Weird. Silly. Pointless. Useless. Meaningless. I'm not even sure wtf this is. Did you sustain a concussion or something?
Thank you for your constructive feedback.
And thank you for you interest in my health. I can assure you that doctors say I am fine. |
Matarella
The Last Call.
Black Core Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 21:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ji Sama wrote:Qorvis Communications wrote:Weird. Silly. Pointless. Useless. Meaningless. I'm not even sure wtf this is. Did you sustain a concussion or something? Thank you for your constructive feedback. And thank you for you interest in my health. I can assure you that doctors say I am fine.
+1 |
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Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.09.13 22:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
What does Rule #2 accomplish for you exactly?
Why are any of these rules necessary? To what purpose? |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 22:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
Swidgen wrote:What does Rule #2 accomplish for you exactly?
Why are any of these rules necessary? To what purpose?
Well I am not exactly sure.
This is a DRAFT. And we are asking for community feedback.
This was the way WE saw it.
Rule 2 would accomplish, some honor and integrity that would go with rule 1.
Perhaps rule 2 should just be a sub rule of rule 1.
These rules are perhaps not necessary per say.
We do feel they are needed. Miners are being hated from all sides, we are the scum of EVE.
Big events are made to kill us, harass us, drive us away from EVE and much much more.
If we could change some of the bad behavior that have earned us the reputation of not being willing to accept risk, breaking TOS with botting. That we all are Chinese farmers etc.
We as miners have a responsibility for the server.
We are the front line of EVE. We supply the minerals necessary to keep the gears of war turning.
Therefore we feel it is necessary to have a code of conduct. For various reasons.
1: Will help us regain some of the lost respect.
2: Will help us create a healthier and more constructive environment for miners and industrials alike.
3: Will increase the health of the economy and thereby also the health of the server.
4: Will make it easier for miners to actually make a good profit
5: Dunno anymore off the bat, so I am just making stuff up as I write it.
|
Anhenka
Burning Napalm
Northern Coalition.
48
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 23:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
All those people from all across the globe, some of which don't speak the same language as you, very few of which care at all about you, many of whom are merely alts of players for whom mining in a low effort income source. And the ones that are not alts are doing it for the money, and see no reason to restraint themselves for your convenience.
And you think some form of miner E-bushido code is going to catch on with any of them?
Sure it will, probably be about as well received as syphilis in a nunnery.
In the end, people mine for isk, and you expect them to not do any afk mining, only mine the bare minimum they need, be polite to everyone, never pirate against anyone, and be a good and upright member of the community?
Lol. The reason people don't respect miners is cause there's really nothing to inspire respect. They mine stuff, they make stuff, they sell stuff. It's easy, mind-numbing work for little pay because anyone can do it with no effort or risk. |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 23:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
Good points, thank you for contributing :)
While I do not agree with them all, does not mean that they does not hold any merit :)
Remember key word is VOLUNTARY ;)
In my experience you make the most as a miner when you are actually at your keyboard, surveying the fields, managing cycles etc.
Having logistics and proper leadership, as well as an sufficient escort etc. Further boosts output.
Not getting harassed and suicide ganked is also something that is good for profits :)
|
Yazan Drar
Flashpoint Industries
The Methodical Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 07:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
I can see the need for such guidelines, just to establish some Honour code among miners. Perhaps this would be more effective if corporations would adopt some or all of these rules as their code of conduct. I guess they would especially like the Rule 6 
Could you explain the idea behind rules 3 and 4? What qualifies as mining or selling what you need? Perhaps I have misunderstood the idea of mining, but I do it get isk. Is this an example of need or greed?
Rules referred:
Quote:
Rule 3
You will only mine what you need
Rule 4
You will only sell what you need
Rule 6
Give more than you take
|
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 08:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Styth spiting wrote:The only thing I expect from miners is to stay out of other players belts, and if you see a ganker warn local.
Wasn't aware there were player owned belts... ? |
Samillian
177
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 08:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'm afraid that your proposal is very unlikely to survive contact with EvE.
NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
233
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 08:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:All those people from all across the globe, some of which don't speak the same language as you, very few of which care at all about you, many of whom are merely alts of players for whom mining in a low effort income source. And the ones that are not alts are doing it for the money, and see no reason to restraint themselves for your convenience.
And you think some form of miner E-bushido code is going to catch on with any of them?
Sure it will, probably be about as well received as syphilis in a nunnery.
In the end, people mine for isk, and you expect them to not do any afk mining, only mine the bare minimum they need, be polite to everyone, never pirate against anyone, and be a good and upright member of the community?
Lol. The reason people don't respect miners is cause there's really nothing to inspire respect. They mine stuff, they make stuff, they sell stuff. It's easy, mind-numbing work for little pay because anyone can do it with no effort or risk.
i am not sure about this "easy, no effort...anybody can do it" thing.
1. not everybody has an alt to mine while his main does other "more important" stuff.
2. pure mining (ship into belt, target roid, activate cycle) might not require much skill,
BUT
managing mining OP-¦s, spreading income and payment across various people who took part,
managing a whole industrious endeavour IS something not so many can do per se.
I am a firm believer that this actually is harder and more challenging than be part of a 400 man fleet and just listen to your FC on when and where to jump and who-¦s gonna be primaried.
3. miners, as any part of the eve economy, need and are worth of respect. as in real life....everbody is worthy of getting respect... as is the busboy who cleans dishes or tables at a restaurant. just because he works for less or has not the skillset that you do deosnt mean he-¦s worth of respect
my ramblings have nothing to do with the codex of course, which i deem a bit silly because, miners and industrialists are the premiere capitalists in eve and not really interested in lowering their efficiency and potential income
"Gotta spend money to make money"
"A fool talks, a wise man listens"
"He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Shanara As
Psy Corp Ltd.
233
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 08:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
TheSkeptic wrote:Styth spiting wrote:The only thing I expect from miners is to stay out of other players belts, and if you see a ganker warn local. Wasn't aware there were player owned belts... ?
that also was a bit surprising to hear.
if i could sole posession of a great belt, tell me how so please.
(and spare me with "our alliance has sov in this / that sys so those are ours...." - crap plase)
"Gotta spend money to make money"
"A fool talks, a wise man listens"
"He who doesn-¦t wanna listen, talks the most"
|
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 09:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Yazan Drar wrote:I can see the need for such guidelines, just to establish some Honour code among miners. Perhaps this would be more effective if corporations would adopt some or all of these rules as their code of conduct. I guess they would especially like the Rule 6 Could you explain the idea behind rules 3 and 4? What qualifies as mining or selling what you need? Perhaps I have misunderstood the idea of mining, but I do it get isk. Is this an example of need or greed? Rules referred: Quote:
Rule 3
You will only mine what you need
Rule 4
You will only sell what you need
Rule 6
Give more than you take
I think the general idea would be for this to be implemented on a corporation/alliance level, otherwise there would be no way to regulate or control it. I.e. if people just said they lived up to it, but didn't do it. (telling instead of showing) then it would be a waste of time anyways.
The reasoning behind rule 3 & 4 (perhaps calling them guidelines instead, dunno if RULES ticks of people) is that we are part of the economy as a whole, we provide some of the basic materials every player has need for, directly or indirectly.
This is a HUGE responsibility, and its therefore of the utmost importance that we take this responsibility seriously.
And inflation is a huge problem.
So the general idea is to put some thought behind your actions, instead of mindlessly stripping asteroids.
So you only take from the belt what you need, you also do not discriminate against ore, you take whats in your general area, when its completely stripped you move on. This makes it in turn easier for everyone, as you don't get half empty fields etc.
When I say take what you need, I mean what is needed to fill a specific quota. So when you hit your daily, weekly, monthly quota you stop mining. Same goes for refining, don't mindlessly refine every single drop of ore you can scavenge, refine what is needed to fill your mineral quota.
Next rule is kinda related, instead of mindlessly dumping all your minerals to buy orders on the market. You setup sell orders, (all real mining corps have a ore/mineral buyback program anyways) and don't crash or inflate a mineral.
(Of course you adjust for demand)
This way we get a healthier market for everyone.
It's an idea I got that we need to be an ISK sink, instead of a faucet.
That means stockpiling, and carefully management of orders/quotas!
For example. And this is not to promote my own company in any ways.
We have an ore/mineral/salvage buyback program, we also buy a lot of general materials and components, as well as simple trade goods. This take a lot of work of the miner, so he can optimize his output, and utilize his time more constructive, instead of sitting semi-afk at a belt, watching movies. (not that there is something wrong with that, each to his own. Its about quality instead of quantity)
I can also see the logic behind some of the other criticism that has been put forward here.
For example, this would probably not be for the NPC-Corp miners. |
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Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
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Posted - 2012.09.14 09:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have some excellent examples of how we can all produce in over-unity, using a need based approach to our work!
Gift and resource based economy vs. free market capitalism.
The give more than you receive also boost your input/yield, under the very important circumstance that EVERYONE directly involved are doing it. I.e. the more leeches the less efficient the system will be, and ultimately collapse if misrepresented or misused.
(the system is fragile especially in EVE since it requires goodwill and trust, something that can be hard to come by)
Forgot the examples:
http://www.holoplexmedia.com/category/netonomy
A good friend of mine made these Vlogs.
It's about RL economy, nevertheless it applies to EVE :) imho.... |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 09:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Also thanks to everyone that have contributed so far.
Try to keep it constructive if you can, if not; then come forward anyways, might be hiding some nuggets of gold between the cynics and critics :)
|
Kueyen
Ananke Astrodynamics
Terran Commonwealth
0
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Posted - 2012.09.14 11:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ji Sama wrote:
And inflation is a huge problem.
Ji Sama wrote:
It's an idea I got that we need to be an ISK sink, instead of a faucet.
People who think mining is an isk faucet, and that "overmining" is a cause of inflation have no business writing miner codes. |
Sturmwolke
283
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 11:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ji Sama wrote:
The goal of the codex is to get some respect again from the community. We aren't all AFK/RMT/BOTTING etc.
But we do acknowledge that it is a problem.
For what purpose? I personally don't see an issue with miners/industrialists.
To gain respect for what?
|
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 11:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kueyen wrote:Ji Sama wrote:
And inflation is a huge problem.
Ji Sama wrote:
It's an idea I got that we need to be an ISK sink, instead of a faucet.
People who think mining is an isk faucet, and that "overmining" is a cause of inflation have no business writing miner codes.
And why is that?
If you are thinking that minerals = faucet, then you are incorrect true.
I perhaps phrased it poorly. For that I apologize.
What I am thinking is more in the line, of not selling everything you mine/refine... This is not a faucet, since no ISK is created.
But if we actively buy ores/minerals/goods from the market, and not re-list them, then we become a sink. (atleast temporaly, since it is not my intention that the goods should be destroyed, but instead be released on a rate the market can sustain.)
Perhaps I am totally off, in that case, please enlighten me.
Thank you for your contribution, clearing out misunderstandings like these are key.
Also I am not writing a miners code, I am trying to COMPILE one.. There is a difference, and this cannot work, without the help from people like yourself :) |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 11:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Sturmwolke wrote:Ji Sama wrote:
The goal of the codex is to get some respect again from the community. We aren't all AFK/RMT/BOTTING etc.
But we do acknowledge that it is a problem.
For what purpose? I personally don't see an issue with miners/industrialists. To gain respect for what?
Dunno, to take pride in your work!
That we aren't all mindless driveling button mashing drones.
Perhaps avoid in-game harassment from people that deem us unworthy?
Not that it personally matters to me as a person, but it is hurting my margin.
Personally I have never been harassed though, but it seems to be an issue?
Or am I over-reading the forums?
Also there is a lot of "John Doe'ing" going on apparently.
Because you do not see any issues does not mean that there is consensus about this.
Well I dunno tbh, I might be going of on a tangent here, it was an idea, ideas are supposed to be shared, that was what I did.
What better place to come for feedback on an idea than here? |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
643
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ji Sama wrote: This is not a faucet, since no ISK is created.
But if we actively buy ores/minerals/goods from the market/employees, and not re-list them, then we become a sink.
Nope.
By buying something you've increased the isk in the marketplace, and by holding onto that something, you've decreased the volume of goods.
Fewer goods on the market = higher prices. That's just basic supply and demand.
The /only/ true sinks in the game are when you're buying goods/services from NPCs.
If you want to be a psuedo sink, you have to sell things, and keep the isk in your wallet.
FuzzWork Enterprises
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/
Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Ji Sama wrote: This is not a faucet, since no ISK is created.
But if we actively buy ores/minerals/goods from the market/employees, and not re-list them, then we become a sink. Nope. By buying something you've increased the isk in the marketplace, and by holding onto that something, you've decreased the volume of goods. Fewer goods on the market = higher prices. That's just basic supply and demand. The /only/ true sinks in the game are when you're buying goods/services from NPCs. If you want to be a psuedo sink, you have to sell things, and keep the isk in your wallet.
Yea I am apparently failing at relaying what I mean.
And shot myself in the foot using the wrong terms.
Can we just imagine that we are talking about minerals and not ISK, and then be a mineral SINK (temporarily)
If we take minerals from roids, and not resell more than (for sake of argument )10% we are temporarily taking ore out of the game, this creating a THOUGHT of SINK?
EDIT: I can see getting no sleep is really limiting my ability to write properly in a foreign language.
I was talking about a thought of sink, and it was never an ISK sink but a temporary (market dictated) sink. (stock, hold) |
Gumby Ambraelle
Broken Wheel Mercantile and Trading Company
Illusion of Solitude
36
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
I applaude your efforts to create a guide line for miners in space.
I fear that the general attitude of EVE is very pvp'ish
It is me against the world, so I will take all I can get before it gets me....
I believe it is common courtesy not to target an asteroid that someone else is mining.
If you warp into a belt and some one is working, you should go to the other end of the belt and work from there.
If you warp into a new belt, start at one end and work toward the other, mining eveything as you go, not just the highest value rock of the day.
If some one is familiar with an area then they should let others know when a know ganker is in the area.
Be respectful in local and if some one asks a question, do not mock them for their lack of knowledge, share your knowledge and experience with them.
As I think of more i will post them |
Ji Sama
Metropolis Mining and Manufacturing Company
9
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 12:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thank you for your constructive reply, and encouragement, that hit a dry spot :)
Will go to sleep on that, cuddle up with my bears in my large fluffy bed, all naked and insecure about what the dangerous PVP'ers think about me. |
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