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Is PLEX Stockpiling an issue for CCP?

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Rikki Sals Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:20:00 - [1] I've seen it thrown around that a possible motivator for introducing more PLEX sinks is a growing number of unused PLEX in the game which make CCP's accountants nervous. Or something to that effect. Is this actually the case? If so, the introduction of more PLEX sinks (in the form of MTs that don't compromise the flow of EVE's gameplay, and hopefully not of its future gameplay development...) is certainly a viable step in managing PLEX circulation, but the simple introduction of more sinks by no means ensures that the number of PLEX circulating won't continue to balloon. Since PLEX are game items, why not simply put a limit on their circulation time: Once PLEX are created, they get an additional attribute field (similar to blueprints) which denotes how long they can circulate in the game market before being forcibly converted to AUR. Something like 90-180 days, which decreases by 1 at each downtime. A transaction of 3500 AUR buying 30 days gametime could be included, to preserve the PLEX subscription value. Because of this 'expiration' attribute, they would be limited to trade via the Contracts interface, which would also help with price stability, since trading in large volumes is more difficult with contracts. It would also get easier to find PLEX to purchase since contract searches can be set to universe-wide, and the Contracts interface is way better than it used to be. Those wishing merely to convert hard cash into ISK could still do so quite efficiently through the timecode bazaar. In this way, CCP could rest easy knowing that they will only circulate within a certain timeframe before being accounted for in the form of subscription time or vanity items.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:23:00 - [2] The time is paid for already on the PLEX so why should CCP care if you keep them? The in-game trading is all through isk so they're not an isk sink as the isk just changes hands. I don't see a problem with it because I've been doing some trading in PLEX and the rapid rate the prices change make it hard to maintain a high volume of sales unless you're watching the market with a eye twitching like a meth addict. Originally by: Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:27:00 - [3] CCP just buys PLEX with ISK. That's another one of their dirty little secrets. You forget that these people have no integrity. You really think PLEX would be as expensive as it is otherwise? Stop appeasing CCP. Picture the typical jita scammer/ high sec griefer. Then make him a little more sociopathic. Now you've got a fair idea of who works for CCP. You are a golden goose. But CCP has developed a taste for platinum.
Atticus Fynch Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:30:00 - [4] Not to mention all the PLEX lost in foolish in-game play. CCP pockets that. ----- THE Newsletter.....and CCP Execs
Langoss	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:35:00 - [5] CCP manipulte the PLEX price they have "free" ISK and "free" PLEX . If they want higher price they buy PLEX from market if they want lower price they sell "free" PLEX.
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:38:00 - [6] Stockpiles don't bother them in the least. They served their purpose when they were bought, they provided the seller with the ISK he wanted to buy toys or whatever. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:39:00 - [7] Originally by: AkJon Ferguson CCP just buys PLEX with ISK. That's another one of their dirty little secrets. You forget that these people have no integrity. You really think PLEX would be as expensive as it is otherwise? Stop appeasing CCP. Picture the typical jita scammer/ high sec griefer. Then make him a little more sociopathic. Now you've got a fair idea of who works for CCP. You are a golden goose. But CCP has developed a taste for platinum. CCP? Originally by: Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:40:00 - [8] its not an issue at all with a growing sub base.. with a rapidly shringing one it could be an issue if they start getting given away as worthless and people who would have paid don't
Rikki Sals Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:42:00 - [9] While CCP manipulating the PLEX market is within the realm of possibility (but can't be proven one way or the other), a much larger portion of the stockpiled PLEX I am referring to sit in station hangars and kestrel cargoholds. Whatever conspiracy theories you entertain, those PLEX are still redeemable for subscription time and can't be removed without owners noticing.
TedStriker The Scope	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Patient 2428190 Stockpiles don't bother them in the least. They served their purpose when they were bought, they provided the seller with the ISK he wanted to buy toys or whatever. Learn basic economics 101 plz. Every plex in the game is a DEBT CCP has to pay sooner or later (well, if they don't close the server down). If plex stockpiles grow, CCP debt is growing. Now, why would that be bad you say? Debts usually "shrink" over time, as inflation mitigates it. But Plex is Plex, 30 days are 30days of gametime, ALWAYS (well, they could in theory just...cancel them). It doesn't shrink with inflation, it GROWS with inflation (lets say they want to charge 18Ç now instead of 15Ç, every plex ingame is now worth 18Ç). Yea...well, you get the drift.
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso its not an issue at all with a growing sub base.. with a rapidly shringing one it could be an issue if they start getting given away as worthless and people who would have paid don't Why would anybody get rid of them well below the price they procured them? If new supply magically dried up, the stockpiles would be put on the market at inflated prices (unless, of course you were just stockpiling PLEX for the lulz and not to make a profit). With the prices inflated, you could convince people to start buying them again... ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.06.24 06:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Patient 2428190 Originally by: Diomedes Calypso its not an issue at all with a growing sub base.. with a rapidly shringing one it could be an issue if they start getting given away as worthless and people who would have paid don't Why would anybody get rid of them well below the price they procured them? If new supply magically dried up, the stockpiles would be put on the market at inflated prices (unless, of course you were just stockpiling PLEX for the lulz and not to make a profit). With the prices inflated, you could convince people to start buying them again... For the same reason video game stores have dozens of madden 2009 and can't get ridof them for 4$ a pop when they're pretty much every bit as fun to play ast the 2011s Like i said IF (hypothetical, conditional etc) subscribers dropped from 300k to 75k and a lot of those leaving had no interest in playing they'd find a way to get rid of them. Remember too that most stockpiled plex aren't bought with money but with isk. People can stockpile real money without putting it into plex but plex have certain advantages to holding game wealth in.. or at least a different risk structure than keeping hundreds of billions of game wealth all in isk , or modules.. ..good to spread it around. And yes, i'd suspect that the majority by numbers of the unused plex are in the hands of players with hundreds of billions of isk worth of assets spread across many accounts and closely held game corporations.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:04:00 - [13] to add , if players with ooodles of isk lost interest, i'm not saying that most would go the RMT way... I know i wouldn't. But, certainly you'd give them to friends that still played the game.. maybe here and there .....after they drove you to pick up your car from the mechanic? Gave you tickets to a baseball game etc? Or just cracked you up or something and you wanted to toss them a bone. I DONT think its a problem.. just imaginining one of many possible scenarios. I could just as easily take a differnt side of the issue because under different situations the results will pan out.. well differently. Thats not nonsense.. there are probably only 3 or 4 major scenarios of groups of results not thousands.. and they'd each have different percentage chances of happening.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:08:00 - [14] Originally by: TedStriker Originally by: Patient 2428190 Stockpiles don't bother them in the least. They served their purpose when they were bought, they provided the seller with the ISK he wanted to buy toys or whatever. Learn basic economics 101 plz. Every plex in the game is a DEBT CCP has to pay sooner or later (well, if they don't close the server down). If plex stockpiles grow, CCP debt is growing. Now, why would that be bad you say? Debts usually "shrink" over time, as inflation mitigates it. But Plex is Plex, 30 days are 30days of gametime, ALWAYS (well, they could in theory just...cancel them). It doesn't shrink with inflation, it GROWS with inflation (lets say they want to charge 18Ç now instead of 15Ç, every plex ingame is now worth 18Ç). Yea...well, you get the drift. Its entirely possible that the plex just sit there forgotten just like hundreds of billions of isk sit there forgotten after you lose interest in a game. How many games have you leveled a character in and ammassed all sorts of game wealth and then moved on and left the character dormant.. forgotten the password.. or maybe even the names of the charcters. (i've got fortunes and sellable towers etc in a couple MUDs that still persist)... even is a bit different in that there is a greater black market but just because some people will break the law and realize cash that doesn't mean that all of the holders will
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:09:00 - [15] What if the mass stockpiles of PLEX start to distribute. Serious. What happens if all at once, multiple large alluances, start handing out all their plex. They cancel their accounts. And hand out every last plex they have to every noob they can find. All of that plex being used at once, ON TOPof all the players who pulled the plug, if evenjust for the time being. You know how they like destory their ships or do something evil to leave their mark as they leave the game..... I cant think of anything more evilerested
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:26:00 - [16] CCP are extremely interested in reducing the PLEX stockpile currently in game. Yes they do get paid for each and every one but what do you think they do - save the money until the PLEX is used? Heh, as if. So here's the plan (IMHO) : 1) Make PLEX an in-game item. This clarified the legal position* and allowed PLEX to be destroyed; 2) Allow PLEX to be used for character transfers. More PLEX gone; 3) Allow PLEX to be used for microtransactions. Having players sit on years (decades in some cases) worth of subs in PLEX is very very concerning for investors and for financial planning. The PLEX were potentially paid for years ago and the revenue is long gone. You cannot make sensible plans the way things are now, so there has to be more PLEX sinks which do NOT involve recurring costs (like using one for a monthly sub). The newsletter put the last pieces into place for me, last years change to PLEX was what initially started me wondering. *I'm not sure about the legal position if you reverse redeem a PLEX. Is it still an in-game item (and as such owned by CCP) or is it now something else? I'm not interested enough to work it out, someone else with enthusiasm for this game can do that.
Diomedes Calypso	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk What if the mass stockpiles of PLEX start to distribute. Serious. What happens if all at once, multiple large alluances, start handing out all their plex. They cancel their accounts. And hand out every last plex they have to every noob they can find. All of that plex being used at once, ON TOPof all the players who pulled the plug, if evenjust for the time being. You know how they like destory their ships or do something evil to leave their mark as they leave the game..... I cant think of anything more evilerested lol, I have a lot more faith that this game is going to go along healty and happy than most Just because I like to examine possible scenarios and potential misteps doesn't mean that I dislike a game. After every play the football team your're rooting for goes wrong.. you say to yourself and maybe to the person sitting next to you ... look at all the fing time they're giving that quaerback...they gotta blitz! or whatever... everything deserves to be judged and discussed but that doesn't mean you dont' think you have a great football team just always try to dismantle a situation and the potential motivations that other parties may or may not have etc.... its lots of fun. But, eventually.. everygame tends to fade away.. that could be 15 years from now...couldbe 18 months.. hard to say.. but when it does, I dont' think it will be with a Bang!.. but more like a pfft... a helium ballon that starts shrkinging and sinks, and losesa a bit of its size over night, more a week later, and if you find it under a bed a year later it would have a little air in it but be quite shrunken and small. But, thats a long way off.. I think Eve will grow through this all.. YOU NEEED to GIVE a HUGE amound of Credit for them Always Trying new Things. Better to try lots of things and have many fail because some of those you stumble across that work will work great. I actually think they'll keep going because of exactly that.. they are willling to risk failure ... (now if they'd recognize feedback that something they worked on is a failure at the test stage.. not sure why they release it but....)
Talsha Talamar Amarr Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:32:00 - [18] If they did not create reserves, those GTCs are a cash-flow timebomb waiting to happen. It would have been horrible business practise not to do so. Having open liabilities, without a plan how to cover them is a a blueprint for disaster. Soo.. Well..
Herping yourDerp	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:32:00 - [19] Originally by: TedStriker Originally by: Patient 2428190 Stockpiles don't bother them in the least. They served their purpose when they were bought, they provided the seller with the ISK he wanted to buy toys or whatever. Learn basic economics 101 plz. Every plex in the game is a DEBT CCP has to pay sooner or later (well, if they don't close the server down). If plex stockpiles grow, CCP debt is growing. Now, why would that be bad you say? Debts usually "shrink" over time, as inflation mitigates it. But Plex is Plex, 30 days are 30days of gametime, ALWAYS (well, they could in theory just...cancel them). It doesn't shrink with inflation, it GROWS with inflation (lets say they want to charge 18Ç now instead of 15Ç, every plex ingame is now worth 18Ç). Yea...well, you get the drift. its a debt of time, not of money if i buy 100000000 gift cards from walmart then use them 5 years later, walmart lost no money ( assuming no fees for the card ect.) they make the same profit as a cash sale. please learn accounting 101
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk What if the mass stockpiles of PLEX start to distribute. Serious. What happens if all at once, multiple large alluances, start handing out all their plex. They cancel their accounts. And hand out every last plex they have to every noob they can find. All of that plex being used at once, ON TOPof all the players who pulled the plug, if evenjust for the time being. You know how they like destory their ships or do something evil to leave their mark as they leave the game..... I cant think of anything more evilerested I'm pretty sure that if they managed to keep it up for 3 months - which given the number of PLEX there are floating about doesn't seem too ridiculous - CCP would be on the verge of going bust. I doubt very much if CCP has cash reserves capable of handling more than that timescale, but we're all guessing here.
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Othran I'm not sure about the legal position if you reverse redeem a PLEX. Is it still an in-game item (and as such owned by CCP) or is it now something else? I'm not interested enough to work it out, someone else with enthusiasm for this game can do that. If you reverse redeem it, it is still an ingame item, owned by CCP and containing no (legally) real life value. Once its reverse redeemed, basically all you can do with it is account management tasks or just redeem it again. There is no (legal) way to get currency for PLEX. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Azahni Vah'nos Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:44:00 - [22] After talking the PLEX issue over with my partner who is a Business Accountant by trade, all those unused PLEX affect CCP's bottom line. They would be listed on their profit/loss statement as an expense. So say for example CCP wanted to show their books to potential investors or even to sell the company those unused PLEX do make a difference. Still wondering why they want them reduced?
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:45:00 - [23] But they can be bought by one person, who cancels their account. And then redeemed by someone else, who paid nothing for them. In any case, as someone pointed out, they are like a debt. They collected the money. And then used the money or saved it, whatever. But now, those markers can all be called in at the most inopportune moment.
Othran Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:48:00 - [24] Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos After talking the PLEX issue over with my partner who is a Business Accountant by trade, all those unused PLEX affect CCP's bottom line. They would be listed on their profit/loss statement as an expense. Do they though? When PLEX was not an in-game item then yes I'd agree. Now that it is an in-game item its not necessarily that simple. Remember all in-game items are the property of CCP so I dunno where that leaves them in terms of financial reporting regulations.
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:48:00 - [25] Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk What if the mass stockpiles of PLEX start to distribute. Serious. What happens if all at once, multiple large alluances, start handing out all their plex. Why the hell would anybody start giving away billions? While you may get a few of the stockpile hoarders in a panic and fueled by the forum frenzy to start dumping everything, it makes no logical sense to start burning your cache for the sake of burning it. They bought the stockpile (presumably) to make ISK. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Tel'Kar'Tir	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:49:00 - [26] Plexes should expire. Ones currently in existence wouldn't but new ones would.
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Patient 2428190 Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk What if the mass stockpiles of PLEX start to distribute. Serious. What happens if all at once, multiple large alluances, start handing out all their plex. Why the hell would anybody start giving away billions? While you may get a few of the stockpile hoarders in a panic and fueled by the forum frenzy to start dumping everything, it makes no logical sense to start burning your cache for the sake of burning it. They bought the stockpile (presumably) to make ISK. Because its evil. Because it would be the exact type behavior CCP has fostered so well in their own playerbase. Simply put, because they can.
Rip Minner Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos After talking the PLEX issue over with my partner who is a Business Accountant by trade, all those unused PLEX affect CCP's bottom line. They would be listed on their profit/loss statement as an expense. So say for example CCP wanted to show their books to potential investors or even to sell the company those unused PLEX do make a difference. Still wondering why they want them reduced? They want to sale to SOE? j/k Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here.
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.24 08:04:00 - [29] In all fairness, they may have already planned for all this. Iceland mans is crafty afterall. Maybe mass PLEX exodus owuld be in their favor.... Maybe the game would be more attractive to potential buyers if more plex was cashed in. I dunno.
Azahni Vah'nos Amarr	Posted - 2011.06.24 08:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Othran Originally by: Azahni Vah'nos After talking the PLEX issue over with my partner who is a Business Accountant by trade, all those unused PLEX affect CCP's bottom line. They would be listed on their profit/loss statement as an expense. Do they though? When PLEX was not an in-game item then yes I'd agree. Now that it is an in-game item its not necessarily that simple. Remember all in-game items are the property of CCP so I dunno where that leaves them in terms of financial reporting regulations. Think of it as an unredeemed I.O.U. against CCP. I'll give you another example, here in Australia recently a book company was liquidated, there were a lot of people that had previously purchased gift cards (our PLEX). So they were already payed for so no problem right? no. The company that took over had to deal with those owning the gift cards by either making them redeem them or giving them money back because they are classed as a liability against the liquidated book store. So PLEX for CCP will be classed as a liability on their profit/loss statement.

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