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An honest question regarding "pay-to-win"

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Ridickulo Minmatar Tiger-Shrimp Sons of EvE Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.27 11:52:00 - [61] Originally by: Portmanteau no. before AURUM plex conversions always balanced with game time, no matter what steps where involved before, so at some point some player will always redeem game time for them. this keeps them balanced and the price reasonably stable. when a player buys AURUM with a plex, no gametime is redeemed for that plex but that plex is now gone. The cost of gametime thru plexes increases due to their scarcity. erm...Actualy you are kind of maybe right. Unless people start spending more to specifically buy AUR items. That way where only one plex would be bought, two are now purchased with real money. In a way right or wrong, only time will tell.
Pace eGuerra	Posted - 2011.06.27 11:55:00 - [62] Originally by: Jint Hikaru Edited by: Jint Hikaru on 27/06/2011 11:05:13 Senario A - the ammo has been created by players out of minerals and/or components mined and build by players. (And is avaliable to everybody) Senario B - You pay real money to CCP so they magiclly spawn super ammo in your hangar. The only way another player can get the same advantage you now have is by giving CCP $$$. To a point but not entirely true. Items are built from elements which are spawned by CCP; moons, asteroids, rats... all this is another spawn of interesting stuff. And before you say "Yes, but we can acquire that stuff and sell it on or re-purpose it" just remember that trading NEX items is going to be big business once the NEX has useful stuff in it. Want to buy a 100m ISK item from the NEX but don't want to spend real $$$$ or convert 400m ISK to PLEX in the process? Sure, no problem, somebody just bought stuff from the NEX and is now selling it on the market for a profit... NO different to mining minerals and selling them for a profit. CCP spawn stuff, we resell it for profit. Really, there is no argument. This is the future, embrace or leave. :) Now can we get back to the most important thing: the disembark button and the whole concept of not leaving our pods when we dock unless we choose to. "Disable CQ" is not a viable long term option. :)
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 11:56:00 - [63] Originally by: Ri**ulo Originally by: Portmanteau no. before AURUM plex conversions always balanced with game time, no matter what steps where involved before, so at some point some player will always redeem game time for them. this keeps them balanced and the price reasonably stable. when a player buys AURUM with a plex, no gametime is redeemed for that plex but that plex is now gone. The cost of gametime thru plexes increases due to their scarcity. erm...Actualy you are kind of maybe right. Unless people start spending more to specifically buy AUR items. That way where only one plex would be bought, two are now purchased with real money. In a way right or wrong, only time will tell. yeah it's all quite hypothetical and subject to intricacies we can't possibly determine, the only thing we can be sure of is that AURUM will cause plex price to increase (whether other things will cause it to go down I'm not saying, just talking about AUR in isolation here)
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2011.06.27 11:58:00 - [64] Edited by: Qual on 27/06/2011 12:06:08 Originally by: Portmanteau If you are not a wealthy credit card wielding player and the price of plexes and in turn advantageous items from the NEX (considerd in isk ofc) goes up then it is of concern Edit: Wrong post is wrong... "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.27 11:58:00 - [65] Edited by: Tippia on 27/06/2011 12:03:24 I'll just plaster this one here as wellà Note in particular the imbalance between the inputs and the outputs of the item part of the marketà Originally by: Qual The primary goal of PLEX is to fight RMT. If the price goes up it will loose that effect. Look for CCP to bring prices down ASAP if that happens. If PLEX prices go up, they will be even more attractive as an alternative to (third-party) RMT, so they won't do it for that reason. Instead, they'd do it because if they go too high, they risk losing active accounts as PLEX-users can no longer afford to keep their accounts going. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Ami Quintero	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:01:00 - [66] Originally by: Qual The primary goal of PLEX is to fight RMT. If the price goes up it will loose that effect. Look for CCP to bring prices down ASAP if that happens. I should think if the price goes up it will be more effective against RMT.
Ridickulo Minmatar Tiger-Shrimp Sons of EvE Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:03:00 - [67] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 27/06/2011 12:00:36 I'll just plaster this one here as wellà Note in particular the imbalance between the inputs and the outputs of the item part of the marketà I inject real money to the game, buying plex, because i want isk. Will my need for such isk decrease with the introduction of AUR items? CCP must have figured out that it won't (dunno if it will or not).
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 27/06/2011 12:00:36 I'll just plaster this one here as wellà Note in particular the imbalance between the inputs and the outputs of the item part of the marketà Originally by: Qual The primary goal of PLEX is to fight RMT. If the price goes up it will loose that effect. Look for CCP to bring prices down ASAP if that happens. If PLEX prices go up, they will be even more attractive as an alternative to (third-party) RMT, so they won't do it for that reason. Instead, they'd do it because if they go too high, they risk losing active accounts as PLEX-users can no longer afford to keep their accounts active. First the drawing is wrong. Any item comparable to an existing market item will have that base item as input besides AUR. CCP did think this part through. Second, my bad. It's been a long day. You are right there. CCP wants PLEX to be worth more ISK as an incentive to get them. Bleh... "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:06:00 - [69] Originally by: Ri**ulo Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 27/06/2011 12:00:36 I'll just plaster this one here as wellà Note in particular the imbalance between the inputs and the outputs of the item part of the marketà I inject real money to the game, buying plex, because i want isk. Will my need for such isk decrease with the introduction of AUR items? CCP must have figured out that it won't (dunno if it will or not). you inject gametime into game buying plex for isk, you inject rl money into CCP buying AUR
Ridickulo Minmatar Tiger-Shrimp Sons of EvE Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:08:00 - [70] Originally by: Qual First the drawing is wrong. Any item comparable to an existing market item will have that base item as input besides AUR. CCP did think this part through. I dont get this. Wont it be exchange plex for AUR and buy item with AUR? What other items will be in need? Will it be "Ship + AUR" to buy "Golden Ship"?

Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:09:00 - [71] Originally by: Ri**ulo Originally by: Qual First the drawing is wrong. Any item comparable to an existing market item will have that base item as input besides AUR. CCP did think this part through. I dont get this. Wont it be exchange plex for AUR and buy item with AUR? What other items will be in need? Will it be "Ship + AUR" to buy "Golden Ship"? Bonus point to you. Yes! "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:11:00 - [72] Originally by: Qual Originally by: Ri**ulo Originally by: Qual First the drawing is wrong. Any item comparable to an existing market item will have that base item as input besides AUR. CCP did think this part through. I dont get this. Wont it be exchange plex for AUR and buy item with AUR? What other items will be in need? Will it be "Ship + AUR" to buy "Golden Ship"? Bonus point to you. Yes! yes but golden ship worth (insert random factor here) times more than ship from market used in exchange, therein lies a problem
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:11:00 - [73] Originally by: Qual First the drawing is wrong. Any item comparable to an existing market item will have that base item as input besides AUR. CCP did think this part through. Actually, no they didn't, which is why they had to be shouted down form letting it go live before iterating on the NeX store to make that possible. Moreover, it currently includes items that have no "existing market item", so those act as direct injection of completely new items. And finally, even for the items that, in the future, eat up items in the production process, the NeX still injects additional value into the market through that AUR conversion process (indeed, that is the whole point of that process). ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Ridickulo Minmatar Tiger-Shrimp Sons of EvE Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:11:00 - [74] Originally by: Portmanteau you inject gametime into game buying plex for isk, you inject rl money into CCP buying AUR So if they are not injecting more gametime into EVE that means they do not actualy want more players. They want to increase their revenue with the existing player base making them pay more for what already exists. Is that what you are saying? Interesting.
Hekira Soikutsu	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:12:00 - [75] Edited by: Hekira Soikutsu on 27/06/2011 12:13:25 Originally by: Ri**ulo Originally by: Siestre Vitale "However, just to prove the point of the Fearless newsletter and give you a further understanding of what it is then there are no and never have been plans to sell "gold ammo" for Aurum." -CCP Zulu Scenario B doesnt exsist Well, a year ago there where no plans for MT, so... They say no gold ammo. Gold ships and meta level 25 modules anyone? EDIT Haha failprofanityfilter
Ridickulo Minmatar Tiger-Shrimp Sons of EvE Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:13:00 - [76] Originally by: Qual Bonus point to you. Yes! I didn't actually see that anywhere and so i asked. Can you direct me to where this exchange is mentioned? Really would like to read it.
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:17:00 - [77] Edited by: Portmanteau on 27/06/2011 12:17:35 Originally by: Ri**ulo Originally by: Portmanteau you inject gametime into game buying plex for isk, you inject rl money into CCP buying AUR So if they are not injecting more gametime into EVE that means they do not actualy want more players. They want to increase their revenue with the existing player base making them pay more for what already exists. Is that what you are saying? Interesting. I'm not saying anything like that just pointing out that you are not injecting money into the game (presumably you mean CCP) by buying plex for isk, that plex will be redeemed for gametime (CCP is borrowing the money until this happens), something that will not happen if you buy plex for AUR, there is a difference
Cpt Fina Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:24:00 - [78] Originally by: Mercurius Steele I'm not defending CCP (personally I don't care, but I know many of you guys do), I'm just curious: Why is it that A is ok with everybody, but B isn't? A isn't ok with everybody. Alot of people were very vocal about the official advocacy of the first plex system back in the day. This IS pay-to-win. Microtransactions couuld merely be an extension of an old policy. I guess the people that didn't complain about it way back when are too butthurt to admit this... or they try to deflect attention away from the similaritiess of the two systems.
Ridickulo Minmatar Tiger-Shrimp Sons of EvE Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:25:00 - [79] Originally by: Portmanteau I'm not saying anything like that just pointing out that you are not injecting money into the game (presumably you mean CCP) by buying plex for isk, that plex will be redeemed for gametime (CCP is borrowing the money until this happens), something that will not happen if you buy plex for AUR, there is a difference Ok, i get your point that PLEX prices will go up. ('ll wait and see) That will not affect subscribing player will it? It will only reflect on those of us who play for free. Shouldn't we allow CCP to get something out of our free game time?
Race Drones 13th Squadron E C L I P S E	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:33:00 - [80] Edited by: Race Drones on 27/06/2011 12:34:00 Originally by: Mercurius Steele Edited by: Mercurius Steele on 27/06/2011 10:57:28 Scenario A) I buy a plex with real money. I sell the plex on the market for ISK. I use the ISK to buy faction ammo, which is more powerful than regular ammo. Scenario B) I buy a plex with real money. I convert the plex to aurum. I use the aurum to buy hypothetical "gold ammo" which is more powerful than regular ammo. I'm not defending CCP (personally I don't care, but I know many of you guys do), I'm just curious: Why is it that A is ok with everybody, but B isn't? The faction ammo come from players, if your choice is to buy gold ammo, then these players go to be ruined, boring, then leave the game. ----- EVE Online is a Bad Game that the Players make Good.

Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:35:00 - [81] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Qual First the drawing is wrong. Any item comparable to an existing market item will have that base item as input besides AUR. CCP did think this part through. Actually, no they didn't, which is why they had to be shouted down form letting it go live before iterating on the NeX store to make that possible. Moreover, it currently includes items that have no "existing market item", so those act as direct injection of completely new items. And finally, even for the items that, in the future, eat up items in the production process, the NeX still injects additional value into the market through that AUR conversion process (indeed, that is the whole point of that process). So does PLEX. The only way to create any value in EvE is to play the game. PLEX = playtime = value. So if playtime is not used to play, it can still be allowed to create value into the economy without breaking it. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:35:00 - [82] Originally by: Ri**ulo Originally by: Portmanteau I'm not saying anything like that just pointing out that you are not injecting money into the game (presumably you mean CCP) by buying plex for isk, that plex will be redeemed for gametime (CCP is borrowing the money until this happens), something that will not happen if you buy plex for AUR, there is a difference Ok, i get your point that PLEX prices will go up. ('ll wait and see) That will not affect subscribing player will it? It will only reflect on those of us who play for free. Shouldn't we allow CCP to get something out of our free game time? It would most likely affect free players first but it would also affect subs players who couldn't afford to pay more if P2W items become very expensive. It all depends on people's personal determination of when the level of grind required for plex is no longer worth it over RL money. For some with decent jobs etc, that level is very low and they will reach for the credit card sooner than others, for those with little spare cash the level is very high, but at some point, it becomes so high that the effort required is just not worth it and they have to make a decision on whether to spend money they don't have or lower their expectations in game.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:47:00 - [83] Originally by: Qual So does PLEX. The only way to create any value in EvE is to play the game. PLEX = playtime = value. So if playtime is not used to play, it can still be allowed to create value into the economy without breaking it. Read the thread I keep linking to. Basically, no PLEX doesn't create any value ù it is just an option to call in a 30d game time debt. Once that option is exercised, the PLEX is removed from the economy. The problem with NeX is that it provides another option: to get 3,500 AUR. If you go for that option, you have suddenly created value out of nowhere (wellà out of $$, which is the same thing from an in-game perspective). PLEXes only ever flow straight through the economy; AUR items do not ù they add to it. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:48:00 - [84] Originally by: Portmanteau It would most likely affect free players first but it would also affect subs players who couldn't afford to pay more if P2W items become very expensive. It all depends on people's personal determination of when the level of grind required for plex is no longer worth it over RL money. For some with decent jobs etc, that level is very low and they will reach for the credit card sooner than others, for those with little spare cash the level is very high, but at some point, it becomes so high that the effort required is just not worth it and they have to make a decision on whether to spend money they don't have or lower their expectations in game. PLEX does not sink nor create ISK. PLEX cant go higher in price than what someone is willing to pay for it. The working man who buys ISK, wont get more for that PLEX than what the free player can/wants to pay. The free player here is the one creating the ISK value. If he does not play, there is no value to buy. Of course this is moch more complex as there is a large majority of players who is simply subscribers. If PLEX price gets to low they will buy time to skip sub payments, if it get high, they might cut the occational corner and buy a PLEX to sell. Thus the system remains self balancing. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:53:00 - [85] Originally by: Tippia Read the thread I keep linking to. Basically, no PLEX doesn't create any value ù it is just an option to call in a 30d game time debt. Once that option is exercised, the PLEX is removed from the economy. Of course it creates value. THATS THE WHOLE POINT! If noone plays, no value enters the game. The avarage 30 days of playing time will generate a quite specific ammount value into the game. I am sure the good econmy dr could tell you the exact number by heart, as that is one of the most important key numbers in eve. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:56:00 - [86] Originally by: Qual Of course it creates value. THATS THE WHOLE POINT! If noone plays, no value enters the game. That value isn't created by the PLEX, though. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.27 12:58:00 - [87] Originally by: Qual Originally by: Portmanteau It would most likely affect free players first but it would also affect subs players who couldn't afford to pay more if P2W items become very expensive. It all depends on people's personal determination of when the level of grind required for plex is no longer worth it over RL money. For some with decent jobs etc, that level is very low and they will reach for the credit card sooner than others, for those with little spare cash the level is very high, but at some point, it becomes so high that the effort required is just not worth it and they have to make a decision on whether to spend money they don't have or lower their expectations in game. PLEX does not sink nor create ISK. PLEX cant go higher in price than what someone is willing to pay for it. The working man who buys ISK, wont get more for that PLEX than what the free player can/wants to pay. The free player here is the one creating the ISK value. If he does not play, there is no value to buy. Of course this is moch more complex as there is a large majority of players who is simply subscribers. If PLEX price gets to low they will buy time to skip sub payments, if it get high, they might cut the occational corner and buy a PLEX to sell. Thus the system remains self balancing. never said plex creates isk, why you putting words in my mouth ? As to your next statement, it's true that plex will go as high as someone is willing to pay, but you are forgetting that AUR removes plex from the system so that price will go up at least somewhat and will be bought by richer players leaving poorer players in the cold. Your example assumes limitless plexes and is completely erroneous as a result. Subs players who do not normally buy plex will also increase the demand for plex when NEX store items convert them to new plex buyers, this is exactly what CCP wants... to increase it's conversion rate of subs only/free players to plex for AUR buyers... you really haven't though this thru very well have you. CCP wants a plex sink so they don't have all that gametime owed hanging over their heads, the way they will do this is by removing as many plexes as possible thru AUR sales. Plexes could be in short supply indeed depending on their success at converting us to NEX shoppers
Narisa Bithon Caldari The Motley Crew Reborn	Posted - 2011.06.27 13:01:00 - [88] they only solution to MT for advantage i can see is that player should be allowed sell all items in isk or aurum. that way if a player buys "golden ammo" another player benefits from it cos the "golden ammo" was sold by a player not ccp.
Rysdan Phar	Posted - 2011.06.27 13:03:00 - [89] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 27/06/2011 12:03:24 I'll just plaster this one here as wellà Note in particular the imbalance between the inputs and the outputs of the item part of the marketà Originally by: Qual The primary goal of PLEX is to fight RMT. If the price goes up it will loose that effect. Look for CCP to bring prices down ASAP if that happens. If PLEX prices go up, they will be even more attractive as an alternative to (third-party) RMT, so they won't do it for that reason. Instead, they'd do it because if they go too high, they risk losing active accounts as PLEX-users can no longer afford to keep their accounts going. lol your diagram looks oddly like a big toilet..... seems very like the way eve online is about to go.
Ridickulo Minmatar Tiger-Shrimp Sons of EvE Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.27 13:04:00 - [90] I can't see any theories that are more valid than others. All things being equal, the future is uncertain but it doesn't appear to me that AUR could destroy EVE as we know it.



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