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The Huffarunier
Gallente
The Real OC
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:22:00 -
[1]
In all seriousness I myself dislike any notion of pay-to-win so I'm with the rioters there but my question is more about the things we always here "You are a small but vocal minority and hardly anyone goes to the forums".
My question is why is this true (assuming that it is)?
From my perspective I would never think of not going to the official forums for the games I play. I do most of my forum warrioring there and hardly at any 3rd party sites. I'm hard pressed to think of a good reason not to be informed about yoru game and talk and learn from other players.
Please explain... we probably can't since were here but what are the reasons we could think of?
I just find the logic that only 3% or whatever even think of going to the forums.
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:24:00 -
[2]
Check features and ideas discussion, where players submit ideas for what they wish would happen.
The number of microtransaction, money for sp and ships, give us the ability to make fart animations in CQ, please take out every capital ships, why can't I be alien, etc ...
Yeah, let us hope that they consider the forums a minority at times. There are good ideas, but this is not the place to take the temp of the gaming community.
That, of course, is what the CSM is kinda for, but if you don't vote ... yeah ...
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Vincenzo Delloro
Amarr
Lux et Veritas
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:32:00 -
[3]
The forums tend to scare less, um, assertive players off due to the general rage-y tone. It takes a lot of effort to wade through a hundred posts on the same topic to find one that's relevant, so plenty of players don't even bother.
Of course, that doesn't tell you much about what they're thinking, but like the dude above says, there are other channels for input to CCP besides the forums.
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Tell me again about how [insert random noun here] has ruined EVE! |
Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:41:00 -
[4]
The Official games forums for EVE, WOW, Vindictus, EQ or any game for that matter, are a cesspool where the lowest of the low go to pretend they are a somebody.
98% of the gaming public know this and stay away.
The game companies know this and ignore them.
Only the trolls (me and some others) and the self important imbeciles that think they know more than the game designers (most everyone else) spend any time on them.
Mr Epeen 
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The Huffarunier
Gallente
The Real OC
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:42:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Vincenzo Delloro
The forums tend to scare less, um, assertive players off due to the general rage-y tone. It takes a lot of effort to wade through a hundred posts on the same topic to find one that's relevant, so plenty of players don't even bother.
Of course, that doesn't tell you much about what they're thinking, but like the dude above says, there are other channels for input to CCP besides the forums.
Im not really talking about just CCP. I have heard this before from other games that the vocal minority are on the forums. For me, I just can see why you wouldnt go to the forums, but oh well.
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OHU812
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mr Epeen
The Official games forums for EVE, WOW, Vindictus, EQ or any game for that matter, are a cesspool where the lowest of the low go to pretend they are a somebody.
Mr Epeen
And you're here with me! 
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: OHU812
Originally by: Mr Epeen
The Official games forums for EVE, WOW, Vindictus, EQ or any game for that matter, are a cesspool where the lowest of the low go to pretend they are a somebody.
Mr Epeen
And you're here with me!
Couldn't read past the first line, idiot?
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The Huffarunier
Gallente
The Real OC
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:51:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Mr Epeen
Originally by: OHU812
Originally by: Mr Epeen
The Official games forums for EVE, WOW, Vindictus, EQ or any game for that matter, are a cesspool where the lowest of the low go to pretend they are a somebody.
Mr Epeen
And you're here with me!
Couldn't read past the first line, idiot?
Many people have reading comprehension issues it would seem. Thats too bad. Even if you HATE the opinion of other people you should listen to it.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.28 01:57:00 -
[9]
It's because the "majority" who never go to the forums includes:
1) Newbies who don't have enough interest in the game yet (and may have canceled their accounts already).
2) Alt accounts of players who post on the forums with their main account.
3) Players who prefer third-party forums (which the developers should ALSO pay attention to) for whatever reason (for example, speaking a different language, bans from the official forums, etc). Considering only the official forums is an arbitrary restriction, and a misleading one when the opinion elsewhere is the same as the one dominating the official forums.
So I bet if you only considered the active players who care enough about the game to have an opinion at all, you'd find that a much higher percentage of them make some use of forums. There isn't some "silent majority" who disagree with the forum posters, at most there is a large group of players who don't care either way and therefore shouldn't be considered when making decisions.
Dismissing forum posters as "not representative of the majority" is just plain stupid, especially when those players tend to do the most to build the community/advertise the game to their friends/etc.
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
It's because the "majority" who never go to the forums includes:
1) Newbies who don't have enough interest in the game yet (and may have canceled their accounts already).
2) Alt accounts of players who post on the forums with their main account.
3) Players who prefer third-party forums (which the developers should ALSO pay attention to) for whatever reason (for example, speaking a different language, bans from the official forums, etc). Considering only the official forums is an arbitrary restriction, and a misleading one when the opinion elsewhere is the same as the one dominating the official forums.
So I bet if you only considered the active players who care enough about the game to have an opinion at all, you'd find that a much higher percentage of them make some use of forums. There isn't some "silent majority" who disagree with the forum posters, at most there is a large group of players who don't care either way and therefore shouldn't be considered when making decisions.
Dismissing forum posters as "not representative of the majority" is just plain stupid, especially when those players tend to do the most to build the community/advertise the game to their friends/etc.
The argument is more along the lines of: "those who need to make a complaint, go to the forums. Those who are happy with it as is, are playing the game."
If something isn't going our way, sure, most of us DO care. But let's be honest ... it's a VERY rare occasion someone is happy and has the gumption to go on the forums and tell CCP so ... and when that happens, they get extreme rage in their direction. Not a way to train good posters 
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:09:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
The argument is more along the lines of: "those who need to make a complaint, go to the forums. Those who are happy with it as is, are playing the game."
And my point is that the "silent majority" really doesn't exist. For example, my alt account is "happily playing the game" while I write angry posts from my main account. Just by looking at account stats, you'd come to the completely wrong conclusion that 50% of these players are happy with the current state of EVE.
Also, it's a stupid argument because a large percentage of the people who are happy with it as it is are NOT going to suddenly be unhappy if the "vocal minority" get their way. If those accounts are going to remain no matter what you do, how does it make sense to dismiss the concerns of the forum posters and suffer a net loss in subscribers?
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Rius Ulrich
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mr Epeen
The Official games forums for EVE, WOW, Vindictus, EQ or any game for that matter, are a cesspool where the lowest of the low go to pretend they are a somebody.
98% of the gaming public know this and stay away.
The game companies know this and ignore them.
Only the trolls (me and some others) and the self important imbeciles that think they know more than the game designers (most everyone else) spend any time on them.
Mr Epeen
Good trolls never label themselves trolls. In fact, if you are a good troll the people you troll should never know you're a troll.
Besides, you don't classify as a troll. You try too hard. Trolling is a art, and you have yet to figure it out.
I met someone once. No really, I am serious. |
Llambda
Space Llama Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:17:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Llambda on 28/06/2011 02:17:14
Quote:
My question is why is this true (assuming that it is)?
It's a "lies, damned lies, and statistics" thing.
Yes, it's true that most players do not use the forum.
This does not necessarily mean that the players who DO use the forum do not constitute a representative sample of the total playerbase, however (and, similarly, my stating that this is the case does not imply that the forum DOES constitute a representative sample of the total playerbase).
It's quite simple, really:
If you don't have a valid and verifiable argument to submit, and you DO agree with the forum consensus, your highly fallacious fallback argument is to state (preferably in all caps) that the "majority" clearly feel this way.
If you do NOT have a valid and verifiable argument to submit, and you do NOT agree with the forum consensus, your equally fallacious fallback argument is to state (again, caps-lock counts, unleash the fury) that the other guys are just a vocal minority because most people don't even come to the forum.
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
The argument is more along the lines of: "those who need to make a complaint, go to the forums. Those who are happy with it as is, are playing the game."
And my point is that the "silent majority" really doesn't exist. For example, my alt account is "happily playing the game" while I write angry posts from my main account. Just by looking at account stats, you'd come to the completely wrong conclusion that 50% of these players are happy with the current state of EVE.
Also, it's a stupid argument because a large percentage of the people who are happy with it as it is are NOT going to suddenly be unhappy if the "vocal minority" get their way. If those accounts are going to remain no matter what you do, how does it make sense to dismiss the concerns of the forum posters and suffer a net loss in subscribers?
Wait, just because they are happy with it NOW, does not mean they will remain happy at all times. People who argued to have nano's removed, and nano's were removed, a large group went back to playing. Another large group that survived on Nano's showed up on the forums and started complaining. Constant shifting of the majority of posters.
There are the constants, the trolls and the idea guys and the bored. But do you really think that every ACTIVE, individual person account is on the forums (not including alts)? 90%?
400k subscribers. Even if there's four accounts to every one person, that's 100k subs. That 300 page post about CQ and hating on CCP probably had 300 individual posters at most.
Really?
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Rius Ulrich
Originally by: Mr Epeen
The Official games forums for EVE, WOW, Vindictus, EQ or any game for that matter, are a cesspool where the lowest of the low go to pretend they are a somebody.
98% of the gaming public know this and stay away.
The game companies know this and ignore them.
Only the trolls (me and some others) and the self important imbeciles that think they know more than the game designers (most everyone else) spend any time on them.
Mr Epeen
Good trolls never label themselves trolls. In fact, if you are a good troll the people you troll should never know you're a troll.
Besides, you don't classify as a troll. You try too hard. Trolling is a art, and you have yet to figure it out.
Thank you for insightful words of wisdom.
I was actually trying in my post to be a little self deprecating so as not to threaten the feeble minded like yourself. Apparently it didn't work.
Of course I'm not a troll. I am a speaker of truths.
But you are definitely a self important imbecile.
Mr Epeen
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Bonnie BoneBreaker
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:22:00 -
[16]
Only the intelligent players hang in the forums . The idiots have no reason to.
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Grog Barrel
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Mr Epeen
But you are definitely a self important imbecile.
touchT
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Flamespar
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:46:00 -
[18]
Actually the interesting thing about the whole 'forum players are the minority' arguement, is that whilst it is true that they do not represent most players, that they do tend to purchase the most when it comes to microtransactions.
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Templar Dane
Amarr
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2011.06.28 02:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 28/06/2011 02:07:21
It's because the "majority" who never go to the forums includes:
1) Newbies who don't have enough interest in the game yet (and may have canceled their accounts already).
2) Alt accounts of players who post on the forums with their main account.
3) Macro miners/haulers/etc.
4) Players who prefer third-party forums (which the developers should ALSO pay attention to) for whatever reason (for example, speaking a different language, bans from the official forums, etc). Considering only the official forums is an arbitrary restriction, and a misleading one when the opinion elsewhere is the same as the one dominating the official forums.
So I bet if you only considered the active players who care enough about the game to have an opinion at all, you'd find that a much higher percentage of them make some use of forums. There isn't some "silent majority" who disagree with the forum posters, at most there is a large group of players who don't care either way and therefore shouldn't be considered when making decisions.
Dismissing forum posters as "not representative of the majority" is just plain stupid, especially when those players tend to do the most to build the community/advertise the game to their friends/etc.
Merin nailed this one.
Would also like to add that many players that don't follow the forums and never bother to post for any number of reasons, BUT they are aware of the goings-on because of friends/corpies/etc that DO ***** on the forums.
Hell, with the forums being on fire the last while how many figure they don't even need to raise their voice?
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:02:00 -
[20]
If the game is intuitive or has good documentation/help etc you have no real need to go to the forums or read manuals etc. Some people will only use those things when they get stuck, can't figure something out themselves. Toss in the MMO aspect you can ask people in game just about anything you have issues with and unless it is really technical or just easier to link a forum post/tool etc you can get the information spoon fed to you and not explore more.
There are games I never visited forums for and ones I did, I'm not big on MMO's this is my 2nd and I never bothered with the other one's forum much as the game was simple enough to figure out. I checked out some guides/etc but didn't need to read more about people's politics as most games won't let you rail about things. Most company's keep a 'positive' attitude about everything where if you don't like something you can say so in a fairly neutral manner but adding it over and over to discussions will get you warned or banned.
For EVE you have all the trolling that goes on in the forums so I'm not surprised many are content to play the game and enjoy it or the company of people they want to deal with over dealing with many who just want to be cool on the internet on yet another internet site.
There is also the aspect that plenty of people just don't speak out about things, they let their actions be their voice seeing no point in even trying to say something since they ultimately don't have the power alone to do anything about it.
Originally by: Ghoest
Ill watch what you do not what you say.
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ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: The Huffarunier
I'm hard pressed to think of a good reason not to be informed about yoru game and talk and learn from other players.
This is the only online game that I've ever played. I am, however, used to using work related tech support forums.
Imagine my surprise when I made one of my first serious posts here, asking for suggestions on what battleship to use for a particular function, and received 5 pages of garbage and personal attacks instead of a single answer that had anything to do with my question.
But I didn't learn a thing. My latest attempt was a series of posts about mining techniques that I use and have had success with. I went off on this crusade because of a number of posts that I had seen suggesting that it is currently impossible to make a living from mining in New Eden. I specifically stated that I was not even suggesting that people use the techniques and that they were just methods that worked for me that people might try if they were having problems with particular aspects of mining. I also posted my credentials, which I thought might convince people that I had actually used the techniques I mentioned, and that I wasn't just recycling the same tired old wives tales that are seen here so often.
Akita T and a few of her cronies hounded me until I finally edited the text out of all the posts and asked that the thread be locked so that the personal attacks would end. I did that because I was trying to recruit for a new alliance at the time, and felt that the attacks on my personal credibility would adversely affect that.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that would have turned me off on the Eve forums permanently if I were a normal person. I never really give up, though. I just don't make any attempts to help anyone any more. If it weren't for the current crisis, I might only be checking the forums once a week, or less.
My overall impression of the Eve Insider Forums is that they are poorly moderated, less than helpful and not friendly at all.
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Two years from now --> Gamer: "CCP? Never heard of it." |
Chief Bob
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:19:00 -
[22]
I think people are wrong when they say most people dont go to the forum.
I would say that most DO go to the forums but, most don't post anything. You would have to be pretty dense to not realise the amount of useful information here. Just not in general discussion, thats where the trolls spend most of their time.
I rarely if ever post. I do spend quite a bit of time in the MD and indy forums. Don't confuse the limited number that post with the total population of the forums.
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Novak Sarin
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Novak Sarin on 28/06/2011 03:30:43
CCP is paying the CSM tickets to fly to Iceland for an emergency meeting, because 3% of the community are raging?
I find your lack of logic disturbing.
edit: Oh and why do you people even bother answering the Mr Epeen? All he does all day is troll the forums and eat cheetos.
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Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:30:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Chief Bob
I think people are wrong when they say most people dont go to the forum.
I would say that most DO go to the forums but, most don't post anything. You would have to be pretty dense to not realise the amount of useful information here. Just not in general discussion, thats where the trolls spend most of their time.
I rarely if ever post. I do spend quite a bit of time in the MD and indy forums. Don't confuse the limited number that post with the total population of the forums.
You have a valid point, Chief.
I have to admit there are plenty of games who's forums I browse but never post on.
Its true that if you avoid GD and CAOD there is a lot of useful information to be found here.
Mr You-know-who-by-now
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alexreborn
Invicta.
Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:35:00 -
[25]
A small percent may use the forums, true.
However, I am willing to be that 90% of the current EVE population is scratching their head at the cluster **** of an eve patch that was released last week.
We waited for so long, patient, and for what? A captains quarters that most people have disable by now.
An in game market that is completely useless.
Loss of functionality while docked.
It doesn't take a forum poster to hate these new mechanics. I know most people in my corp have disabled CQ and think the AUR market is ******ed. If 20 active people are all saying the same thing, ISNT that a good inclination of what the majority feel?
This isn't a console game, or a first person shoot gamer that you can play once and throw away.
This is a game that takes dedication and "hard work" to enjoy. Unlike Battlefield Play 4 Free my character has almost 6 years of life, in various corps, and has been in various battles at 4 am that were grand. Can you say the same for Battlefield play 4 free or any other first person shooter?
Completely different game, completely different community.
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Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:41:00 -
[26]
OH hell if you want to do anything in this game beyond running missions then reading the forums is damned near required. When I thought I'd actually have time to do the 0.0 thing I ended up spending a couple months just reading around trying to get a handle on nul sec politics, the whole who's who who hates who who's friends with who and who the hell you don't want to be associated with.
Recruiting yep you're going to spend time on the forums. Trading better spend some time on the forums to know what kind of weirdness is going on.
People who don't follow the forums in this game are at a serious disadvantage to those who do.
The thing I think everyone keeps forgetting with that presentation is that we're talking two entirely different games with a different demographic.
Now CCP probably has a pretty good idea what percentage of the players pay attention to the forums and probably have a pretty good idea of how representative they are of the playerbase at large well at least they should have such data. That's something I'd want to know if I were them.
They have the data the question at hand is whether they found their data to match EA's or not?
I guess we'll find out more next week after the CSM summit.
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Panda Name
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:42:00 -
[27]
that percentage is based on a free 2 play game called battlefield: heroes, a cartoony game that only attracts a certain gaming population. given the casual nature of such games, contrasted to the rather intensive nature of eve, i question the data's application to this game. i would bet that a larger percentage of eve players use the forums. one must admit that only certain types of people play this game, and that our subscription base isn't that big when compared to other games. the players that stay in eve, and pay a long term payment schedule, are all that crazy discussed 2% that plague developers. that's us.
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Hermy Nator
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:42:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Hermy Nator on 28/06/2011 03:44:24
well i have, of course, no evidence but im quit positive that there are more eve-players actualy partisipating on the eve-forums then there are bf:heroes players participating on th bf:heroes forum.
the reason is that eve is a sandbox as well as a very poitical game that needs alot of comunication between players in contrast to most other games. tho im sure there are thousends of mission grinders and npcers who couldn't care less about politics and stuff still eve and its comunity is not compareable to e.g. the infamous bc:heroes comunity lol.
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.28 03:55:00 -
[29]
Back in my day we didn't have forums to run to for help.
You had a problem with space quest or the SSI Dragonlance rpg's you either solved it yourself or game over man. All these molycoddling csms and guides and whatnot, theres no challenge, no adventure, no satisfaction.
Oh if I do what is says here, then do what it says there this'll happen. You're not playing a game. You're following a recipe.
Kids and their words on the internet.
Pffff.
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Trig Onami
Caldari
Onami Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.28 04:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Snake Scofield
Back in my day we didn't have forums to run to for help.
You had a problem with space quest or the SSI Dragonlance rpg's you either solved it yourself or game over man. All these molycoddling csms and guides and whatnot, theres no challenge, no adventure, no satisfaction.
Oh if I do what is says here, then do what it says there this'll happen. You're not playing a game. You're following a recipe.
Kids and their words on the internet.
Pffff.
+9000 
EVE. The most ambitious project on earth. |
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