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Cajmere
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Posted - 2011.07.07 20:43:00 -
[1]
Hello everyone.
Just a little curious about an aspect of the game that I have little experience with; fleet warfare. What I want to know is why the Drake has become a fleet staple when it is often considered sub-par to many other BC's.
Off the top of my head I'm thinking
+ Large shield buffer buys time against alpha damage, and gives friendly logistics a greater chance of assisting in time
+ Low skill requirements for fleet ready fit
+ Flexible nano loadout
+ HML's are a decent counter to other nano/ TD fit enemies
All this is well and good but it goes against advice that I see time and again here; that gank is tank. Considering this, why don't alliances field Cane fleets, for example? Wouldn't their higher damage compensate for the drop in EHP, not to mention their own high speed and player popularity? Cane are everywhere, and for good reason, so I'm puzzled as to why they aren't seen en masse. Ubiquitous popularity can't be an issue.
On a similar note, would a Harb fleet be frowned upon too? I've seen people enthuse about the Harb and and it must be cheaper than flying a Zealot.
I know not all BC's are suited to fleet activity but the three I've mentioned all get regular praise. I just wonder why the Drake features the most. I realize this must all seem very n00bish to any fleet pros reading but I thought about this situation all afternoon at work until my boss gave me a verbal warning for ''acting distracted''.
Does it just come down to EHP in the end?
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Pomeroy Wyrd
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Posted - 2011.07.07 21:08:00 -
[2]
I'd say the combination of raw EHP buffer paired with a scimi or 2, or bassies. Combined with the great damage projection of heavy missiles.
artillery cane fleets are not uncommon in low-sec FW but I've yet to see a raw harbinger fleet as it lacks range to fight nano and speed to catch up. My mind's eye is showing me a lot of upset interceptors reshipping while the harbies lumber along doing... Nothing.
But please, prove me wrong 
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Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.07.07 21:38:00 -
[3]
It's not just the Drake's buffer, it's also her passive recharge that sets her apart from other BC's. The Drake can definitely stand to be primaried for a round or three and shrug it off later.
But I think a key advantage of fleet Drakes is their "real" DPS, a factor of their ability to project that DPS. A HML Drake hits hardest from farthest away, so while a Myrmidon or Harbinger would be lumbering over or even a nano 'Cane is closing to falloff range, the Drake is already pounding away for full damage. Primary down? No problem for the Drake--it switches to the secondary and is immediately hitting for full damage. And it doesn't hurt that the Drake's missiles are immune to tracking disruption and can typically do some damage even to fast frigates. At the end of the day, a Drake that has the lowest DPS of the battlecruisers according to EFT will end up delivering the most damage to the target.
Now, add to that terrific passively regenerating buffer and projected DPS the fact that the Drake has some speed. It stands a chance of breaking off when a fight goes sour. I've jumped through a gate in lowsec into a gate camp, and managed to speed off and out of tackle range before getting popped.
Gotta love the Drake.
Having said that, we've been out in artillery Hurricane gangs, and they rock. Enemy gangs think they can tackle some of us and take us out? Their tacklers are dead as soon as they break away from the pack. Got logistics? One alpha volley from 6-10 artillery Hurricanes kills most battlecruisers before logistics even knows who to rep. The artillery 'Cane doesn't have great DPS, but that alpha multiplied times several ships is killer. And the 'Cane is fast enough to outrun the core of the enemy fleet while at the same time deadly enough to kill their fast tackle.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.07.07 23:38:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Cajmere
What I want to know is why the Drake has become a fleet staple when it is often considered sub-par to many other BC's.
The Drake is generally considered to be the best battlecruiser fyi.
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Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.07.08 00:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vikarion on 08/07/2011 00:16:18
The rise of the drake involves many contributing factors, such as the above-named range advantage, but that really doesn't explain why it tends to also be used more than, say, arty canes or beam harbis.
The first and primary reason that the drake is useful for fleets, and especially for 0.0, is that it is user-friendly, and much more accessible. You need tech 2 guns to make most gunships truly combat effective, but the drake? Just buy a couple malkuth launchers and a few large shield extenders. And, because it takes no time at all to train for those, newbies can be contributing to a fleet battle nearly instantly.
In other words, it's not that the drake is spectacular at any particular role that makes it so wonderfully useful. It's that it's nearly idiot-proof, accessible, and capable to some extent in almost every situation. And everyone has one.
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.08 00:21:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
The Drake is generally considered to be the best battlecruiser fyi.
I wouldn't say that, or at least add a little context.
The Drake is the best Fleet Battlecruiser and PVE Battlecruiser. It is also handy in small gangs.
The Best Battlecruiser for small Gangs and Solo is the Cane thanks to it's ability to Kite, Dis-engage, ease of fitting, Duel Nuets, multible Tank types and hits for High and Accurate DPS. The second best Fleet Battlecruiser for High Alpha Arty.
Cane actually surpassed the Drake on the Top 20 Board for a short time and has been a constant second. It is definately on Par PVP wise when comparing use in there prefered role. None of the other Battlecruisers come close to the big two.
--
EVE Online is commited to $$Excellence$$
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.07.08 00:43:00 -
[7]
To be honest, I'd take the drake over the Cane for soloing in terms of kiting/ability to kill frigs, though to some degree it's a matter of personal preference.
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.07.08 02:19:00 -
[8]
The drake actually has the best effective dps out of any battlecruiser from about 30 to 75km, whilst having a far better tank than similar shield tanked ships like hurricanes. It also has a spare mid for a web, eccm or other type of ewar. The drake can also keep firing under neuts or tracking disruption and can hit most frigates for reasonable damage.
It's amazing that people still think the drake is a poor small gang or solo ship.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.07.08 02:22:00 -
[9]
id say simply because everyone has one from doing missions and they work good even with average skills.
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Cattegirn
Intellectual Wookies
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Posted - 2011.07.08 02:56:00 -
[10]
It's the tank mostly, and the EHP a close second. Has nothing to do with these other things, though they help.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.08 06:23:00 -
[11]
Quote:
It's not just the Drake's buffer, it's also her passive recharge that sets her apart from other BC's. The Drake can definitely stand to be primaried for a round or three and shrug it off later.
Contrary what some people strangely keep claiming, the passive recharge as no effect at all in fleet fights, and very little also in smaller fights. So dont be an idiot and dont fit your fleet drakes with SPRs.
What did make the drake popular is combination of high EHP (due to high resists, which is nice), good damage projection and low skill requirements.
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foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
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Posted - 2011.07.08 06:42:00 -
[12]
A draek blob is a perfect counter to a sig/armor HAC gang which came into being as the counter for the RR BS blob which came as a counter...
Awaiting a draek blob counter in 3... 2... 1...
_______________________
The best thing in EvE is Barrage M. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.07.08 06:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: foksieloy
A draek blob is a perfect counter to a sig/armor HAC gang which came into being as the counter for the RR BS blob which came as a counter...
Awaiting a draek blob counter in 3... 2... 1...
Actually that counter already came, it is called lag fix. |
foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
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Posted - 2011.07.08 07:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Actually that counter already came, it is called lag fix.
They fixed lag? Man I have been out of nulsec for a while now... |
ChromeStriker
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Posted - 2011.07.08 07:36:00 -
[15]
Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Actually that counter already came, it is called lag fix.
They fixed lag? Man I have been out of nulsec for a while now...
Also Fire wall (Smartbombing Battleships intercepting the missiles) but thats a tricky one to pull off. But if you do fml |
Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.07.08 07:44:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mutnin on 08/07/2011 07:49:09
I'd say the primary reason is because of the Drake's range capabilities. So much of gang fighting now days is at longer ranges and the Drake is the best BC for that job.
The Arti Cane is not bad but to get best damage you need to use faction ammo which lowers your range of engagement. You can of course load up the T2 ammo but then you lose some of that damage out put in trade for the range. Meanwhile a Drake can hit for the same damage no matter if it's in point range or 70k away.
Before everyone started playing the nano game with BC's, it was pretty much always Harbs & Armor Canes. Then for a short time nano Hurricanes became the thing to fly, and shortly after people realized in larger gangs that the Drakes worked better than the Canes.
Soloing I'd still prefer the Nano Cane over the Nano Drake, but Drake wins the top dog award for best gang BC atm. |
Cajmere
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Posted - 2011.07.08 20:06:00 -
[17]
Thanks for the answers and subsequent discussion folks, it made some things a lot clearer. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.08 20:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ChromeStriker
Originally by: foksieloy
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Actually that counter already came, it is called lag fix.
They fixed lag? Man I have been out of nulsec for a while now...
Also Fire wall (Smartbombing Battleships intercepting the missiles) but thats a tricky one to pull off. But if you do fml
Firewall can be very effective against drakes, but tbh only required when hugely outnumbered by them. Simply mid range BS will deal fine with drakes, especially hellcats, but also artie maels should have no issues dealing with drakes.
The entire whinign about drakes was stupid, it was always clear that abaddons would easily deal with them. |
Balkor Wolf
Rekall Incorporated
The Fendahlian Collective
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Posted - 2011.07.08 20:54:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Balkor Wolf on 08/07/2011 20:58:09
Edited by: Balkor Wolf on 08/07/2011 20:54:00
Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
It's not just the Drake's buffer, it's also her passive recharge that sets her apart from other BC's. The Drake can definitely stand to be primaried for a round or three and shrug it off later.
Contrary what some people strangely keep claiming, the passive recharge as no effect at all in fleet fights, and very little also in smaller fights. So dont be an idiot and dont fit your fleet drakes with SPRs.
What did make the drake popular is combination of high EHP (due to high resists, which is nice), good damage projection and low skill requirements.
As an example not to base a PVP tank around a passive tank, http://killboard.cdokn.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3568
Was a brilliant fight though last night, the hurricanes were a huge problem for our fleet last night |
Reami Sotsku
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Posted - 2011.07.09 01:31:00 -
[20]
drakes have rose and fell to all occasions, in the end they only achieve very little of a result tactics in eve are simple, ppl don't go about making the fleet formidable they just makes the ships/fits of a singular goal. Using your head isn't relative to the fleets of today. It should be the fleet that makes it dangerous not the ships in them. If ppl start doing that blobs will run with different ships and use them in viable ways instead of just showing up with numbers and make a overwhelming kobyoshi maru. |
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.09 01:39:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Reami Sotsku
If ppl start doing that blobs will run with different ships and use them in viable ways instead of just showing up with numbers and make a overwhelming kobyoshi maru.
Is there a conclusion to this thought.?
What happens if they do?
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Reami Sotsku
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Posted - 2011.07.09 02:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Reami Sotsku
If ppl start doing that blobs will run with different ships and use them in viable ways instead of just showing up with numbers and make a overwhelming kobyoshi maru.
Is there a conclusion to this thought.?
What happens if they do?
You get a new fleet style(its the hope anyway) I dubbed it the Rope-A-Dope. So say you have a 50 man fleet and you spotted a fleet of equal numbers. Today you see these fleets squaring off with all at once, makes for an easy fight also makes your enemy predicable. The rope has flexibility in engading on your own terms, Your fleet breaks up into 5 groups of 10 and run that way, moving and fighting set them up for an ambush without them know your full numbers. Your fleet is showing a disposition and can turn it to an unexpected surprise. You can spread they're numbers across 2 or even 3 gates confusing the fleet that moves as one. when at the same time your overwhelming the FC to making even worse decisions and your fleet is tough to kill because you don't have a single FC you have 5.
All of this correlates to not a single ship making a difference but a combination of ships that work with each other on an evolved tactic and strategy. |
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.07.09 03:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Reami Sotsku
Today you see these fleets squaring off with all at once, makes for an easy fight also makes your enemy predicable. The rope has flexibility in engading on your own terms, Your fleet breaks up into 5 groups of 10 and run that way, moving and fighting set them up for an ambush without them know your full numbers. Your fleet is showing a disposition and can turn it to an unexpected surprise. You can spread they're numbers across 2 or even 3 gates confusing the fleet that moves as one. when at the same time your overwhelming the FC to making even worse decisions and your fleet is tough to kill because you don't have a single FC you have 5.
All of this correlates to not a single ship making a difference but a combination of ships that work with each other on an evolved tactic and strategy.
plz bring this "rope-a-dope" fleet down to aridia |
Anne Alingus
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Posted - 2011.07.09 06:11:00 -
[24]
I am guessing that the people who still think Drakes are awesome fleet ships haven't been in 0.0 for awhile (or not at all)?
Drakes work really well in lag, are cheap and almost everyone has skills for them, so it's easy to make a drake blob. Almost none of the major blocs in 0.0 use drakes much at all (other than as filler), since they get owned by everything else.
The more common and effective fleet ships of the line these days are Abaddons, Maelstroms, Ahacs and Tengus. |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.07.09 06:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Anne Alingus
I am guessing that the people who still think Drakes are awesome fleet ships haven't been in 0.0 for awhile (or not at all)?
They only got their reputation as fleet ships due to being widely accessible, a bunch of rookies 2 months in game can form a drake blob. Doesnt mean it outperforms a fleet battleship, but thats not the point as it is a battlecruiser.
The ship really shines away from the megablobs though, it is an excellent ship for small to medium gangs. Properly fit and flown it outperforms any other battlecruiser hands down. A great solo ship as well with a competent pilot.
Just to get our numbers straight here, 20+ is a blob. |
Aznwithbeard
Minmatar
OMGROFLSTOMP
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Posted - 2011.07.09 06:31:00 -
[26]
Drake is a one trick pony for the most part. huge buffer, crap DPS, but will outlast other BCs because of raw HP. When in smaller gang/solo roaming, drakes generally suck. |
Biggles AU
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Posted - 2011.07.09 06:53:00 -
[27]
Im suprised that people only come to realisation the drake is a good cheap 0.0 fleet option only of recent. To all the comments the dps sucks. Who cares, thats irrelvent when u have 100+. THe buffer is what makes them attractive inaddition to low sp requirement. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.09 07:01:00 -
[28]
If DPS is irrelevant when you have many, then so is buffer. |
Alara IonStorm
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.09 07:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Anne Alingus
Almost none of the major blocs in 0.0 use drakes much at all (other than as filler), since they get owned by everything else.
2 Drake 99642
3 Abaddon 51290
4 Maelstrom 36354
6 Zealot 32264
9 Tengu 27409
0.0... Mostly Filler.
At 60 mil a pop not counting insurance for 60-75km Range Projection, 75-115EHP they will always be a popular choice for a cheap Blob.
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.07.09 09:49:00 -
[30]
Quote:
When in smaller gang/solo roaming, drakes generally suck.
This is wrong. |
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Alara IonStorm
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.09 10:03:00 -
[31]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[====>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[====> Incoming Drake Snipe!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[====>
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Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.07.09 10:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Anne Alingus
I am guessing that the people who still think Drakes are awesome fleet ships haven't been in 0.0 for awhile (or not at all)?
Drakes work really well in lag, are cheap and almost everyone has skills for them, so it's easy to make a drake blob. Almost none of the major blocs in 0.0 use drakes much at all (other than as filler), since they get owned by everything else.
The more common and effective fleet ships of the line these days are Abaddons, Maelstroms, Ahacs and Tengus.
Low sec still has mostly BC gangs roaming around and as such most tend to have a high amount of Drakes in them. Then again most gangs you see in low sec tend to be under 30-40 ships and at those numbers when you add in the various needed support ships for either a BC or BS gang the BC gang at that number tends to work better. |
Ka Jolo
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.07.09 17:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ka Jolo
It's not just the Drake's buffer, it's also her passive recharge that sets her apart from other BC's. The Drake can definitely stand to be primaried for a round or three and shrug it off later.
Originally by: Furb Killer
Contrary what some people strangely keep claiming, the passive recharge as no effect at all in fleet fights, and very little also in smaller fights. So dont be an idiot and dont fit your fleet drakes with SPRs.
What did make the drake popular is combination of high EHP (due to high resists, which is nice), good damage projection and low skill requirements.
Originally by: Balkor Wolf
As an example not to base a PVP tank around a passive tank, http://killboard.cdokn.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3568
Was a brilliant fight though last night, the hurricanes were a huge problem for our fleet last night
I just want to clarify that the effective shield buffer is what helps during a fight, while the passive recharge is for after the fight, making whatever shield damage incurred inconsequential. Other PVP BC's I've flown take a steep toll in cap boosters or repair costs.
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Kamikazme
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Posted - 2011.07.10 09:16:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Kamikazme on 10/07/2011 09:18:14
Originally by: Furb Killer
If DPS is irrelevant when you have many, then so is buffer.
This make zero sense and I'll even be nice enough to explain why.
If you have 100 drakes and they are doing low dps, it's still low dps x 100 which equals pretty damn good dmg. So even 500 alpha = 50,000 at that rate when you are focusing fire.
HOWEVER, low buffer means you can be alpha'd by much smaller numbers. The large buffer allows the logis more time to start getting reps on you to keep you alive.
(edited for grammar)
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Cattegirn
Intellectual Wookies
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Posted - 2011.07.10 10:02:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 10:04:15
Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 10:03:46
Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 10:02:42
Originally by: Ka Jolo
Originally by: Ka Jolo
It's not just the Drake's buffer, it's also her passive recharge that sets her apart from other BC's. The Drake can definitely stand to be primaried for a round or three and shrug it off later.
Originally by: Furb Killer
Contrary what some people strangely keep claiming, the passive recharge [has] very little effect also in smaller fights.
Are you exaggerating a bit here?
On recharge (of any sort), it does encourage two things at least -- one, for the enemy to continue attacking a target once they have started attacking it, and two, focus fire on a single target. They do the second automatically because it is customary in Eve to do so. But with heavy tacklers where position is a tactical factor in the battle, switching targets is highly desirable and that means if you haven't already fried the tackler you give up all the utility gained by shooting at it thus far.
(Besides that I thought focused firepower in fleet battles being readily available was the exception rather than the rule?)
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Cattegirn
Intellectual Wookies
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Posted - 2011.07.10 10:05:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Furb Killer
If DPS is irrelevant when you have many, then so is buffer.
I think he means that in both cases, a certain amount of "overpayment" in damage will go to waste when you concentrate "many" on one. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.10 11:20:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 10/07/2011 11:21:46
Edited by: Furb Killer on 10/07/2011 11:21:01
Originally by: Kamikazme
Edited by: Kamikazme on 10/07/2011 09:18:14
Originally by: Furb Killer
If DPS is irrelevant when you have many, then so is buffer.
This make zero sense and I'll even be nice enough to explain why.
If you have 100 drakes and they are doing low dps, it's still low dps x 100 which equals pretty damn good dmg. So even 500 alpha = 50,000 at that rate when you are focusing fire.
HOWEVER, low buffer means you can be alpha'd by much smaller numbers. The large buffer allows the logis more time to start getting reps on you to keep you alive.
(edited for grammar)
That makes zero sense and i explain you why:
It really doesnt matter if you are in a situation with high buffer and high incoming dps or low buffer and low incoming dps(/alpha). So if it doesnt matter that incoming dps is low, why would it matter that the buffer is low? Yes large buffer allows you to survive longer for friendly logistics to lock you up, high dps makes sure the enemy logistics dont have time to lock your targets up.
If there are so many hostiles that combined with low dps ship they still alpha everything away, then why would you want a big buffer since you get instapopped anyway? If you dont get instapopped, why wouldnt the opponent want more dps to make sure you get instapopped?
In other words: either they both matter, or they neither matter. Obviously they both matter, and low dps is certainly a downside of a fleet ship. Of course for a BC the drake doesnt have low dps at its range.
Quote:
I think he means that in both cases, a certain amount of "overpayment" in damage will go to waste when you concentrate "many" on one.
If more dps isnt needed since you alpha the target anyway, then neither does buffer matter.
Quote:
I just want to clarify that the effective shield buffer is what helps during a fight, while the passive recharge is for after the fight, making whatever shield damage incurred inconsequential. Other PVP BC's I've flown take a steep toll in cap boosters or repair costs.
You do realise the topic here was fleets? Or for my part if decent sized gangs, you got logistics with you, they repair you up and dont wait until your shields recharge. Also in friendly 0.0 repairing is free. |
Cattegirn
Intellectual Wookies
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Posted - 2011.07.10 13:15:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 13:15:41
Originally by: Ka Jolo
I just want to clarify that the effective shield buffer is what helps during a fight, while the passive recharge is for after the fight, making whatever shield damage incurred inconsequential. Other PVP BC's I've flown take a steep toll in cap boosters or repair costs.
I guess I'll put the same question to you as I did to Furb. Is it not an exaggeration to say that in small gang fights the passive recharge on the Drake is only good after a fight? Can't we quantify how much a passive recharge is worth? |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.07.10 16:17:00 -
[39]
What are you people on about with low dps? It only has low dps in EFT, but what is far more important is projection.
As for passive recharge, that is only really important after a fight. And what is important is the percentage, not raw number as you want your buffer filled and not 'tank' something. |
Ard UnjiiGo
Meatshield Bastards
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:01:00 -
[40]
Jolo and Mutnin nailed it.
Only two things worth adding is the ease of switching damage types or to Precisions for smaller targets and the flexibility of all those mids (ex. PODLA Drake). |
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Brother ThantosXI
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:02:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Brother ThantosXI on 10/07/2011 18:02:46
Quote:
All this is well and good but it goes against advice that I see time and again here; that gank is tank.
I fly a HAM drake as my small gang/station camper and honestly the DPS isn't that bad. Though a little more skill intensive to fit It will put out upward of 800DPS overloaded with about 65K EHP. The fit is well suited for Empire War where most fights happen at 0 on gates or undocks.
typically: 3BCU DCU MW WEB SCRAM |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.10 20:53:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Furb Killer on 10/07/2011 20:53:09
Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
Jolo and Mutnin nailed it.
Only two things worth adding is the ease of switching damage types or to Precisions for smaller targets and the flexibility of all those mids (ex. PODLA Drake).
If your goal is purely different damage types you use a hurricane, since it doesnt have to throw its damage bonus away to do something besides kinetic, although yeah it can be useful. But no one ever switches to precision for smaller targets (not to mention which smaller targets? People are going to attack a drake FLEET in frigates?)
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Portmanteau
Gallente
CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.07.10 21:20:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Aznwithbeard
Drake is a one trick pony for the most part. huge buffer, crap DPS
*cough* HAMs
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Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2011.07.10 22:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 10/07/2011 22:36:12
Originally by: Cattegirn
Can't we quantify how much a passive recharge is worth?
Typical buffer Drake: 36hp/s
Typical buffer Cane: 28hp/s
Largely irrelevant in both cases.
If you begin considering passive tanks (as in, using SPR's) you are entering the land of gimmicks - and even there, there are more options to twiddle around with than just Drakes.
That's the problem both you and Ka Jolo have in this discussion, you make it sound like shields and passive recharge is a unique and outstanding ability for the Drake, which it is not; especially not in PvP.
Other than that, if you take all the answers and piece them together, the question has been answered.
1. Trends (the rock-paper-scissor of the post-DD fleet environment; BC-blobs were among the first to adapt current buffer-logi trends).
2. Bonuses appropriate for fleets (projected, reliable damage and buffer tank; adapts well into singular roles and large/lag [see Abaddon]).
3. Skillreqs (it's a BC, it's the most popular race, it's common for beginner PvE, it's weapon system have worse tech / better meta options).
4. Good fitting options and slot allocation (leads to a flexible ship with alot of potential setups; HML/HAM, tank, nano, reach).
5. Weapon systems that hit the majority of existing range "sweetspots" with an average performance (scram/web, point, mid, long).
It's a good ship, arguably the best in it's class, but most BC are good ships.
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Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente
Haita de lupi
ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.07.11 08:26:00 -
[45]
Biggest plus I think for Drakes is the simplicity and ease of use. As long as you have a decent tank fit, any idiot can sit in a Drake and soak up some damage before dying. In the best case scenario, you have a skilled pilot using a Drake to its full potential. Worse case scenario you have a newer pilot who may not know all the ins and outs bu the ship is basic enough with a strong enough tank that he will contribute to the over all fleet.
Simplicity ensures reliability.
"Mors certa, hora incerta." |
Zyress
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Posted - 2011.07.11 20:51:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 10/07/2011 22:36:12
Originally by: Cattegirn
Can't we quantify how much a passive recharge is worth?
Typical buffer Drake: 36hp/s
Typical buffer Cane: 28hp/s
Largely irrelevant in both cases.
If you begin considering passive tanks (as in, using SPR's) you are entering the land of gimmicks - and even there, there are more options to twiddle around with than just Drakes.
That's the problem both you and Ka Jolo have in this discussion, you make it sound like shields and passive recharge is a unique and outstanding ability for the Drake, which it is not; especially not in PvP.
Other than that, if you take all the answers and piece them together, the question has been answered.
1. Trends (the rock-paper-scissor of the post-DD fleet environment; BC-blobs were among the first to adapt current buffer-logi trends).
2. Bonuses appropriate for fleets (projected, reliable damage and buffer tank; adapts well into singular roles and large/lag [see Abaddon]).
3. Skillreqs (it's a BC, it's the most popular race, it's common for beginner PvE, it's weapon system have worse tech / better meta options).
4. Good fitting options and slot allocation (leads to a flexible ship with alot of potential setups; HML/HAM, tank, nano, reach).
5. Weapon systems that hit the majority of existing range "sweetspots" with an average performance (scram/web, point, mid, long).
It's a good ship, arguably the best in it's class, but most BC are good ships.
Ummmm my buffer fit Drake has 195DPS sustained defense efficiency 48.52 dps peak self - recharge (those numbers are omnitank), obviously better for some things and worse for others, admittedly a drop in the bucket of incoming dps if you are the primary of a blob but in small gangs that adds a significant amount of tank particularly when you first take the first 65.7 % of the damage off of even my lowest resist damage type. In small gangs I don't think thats insignificant even during the fight. This is more of a pve fit than a pvp fit but if I changed my target painter for a warp disrupter , it could do pvp
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Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2011.07.12 00:03:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 12/07/2011 00:08:13
Originally by: Zyress
Ummmm my buffer fit Drake has 195DPS sustained defense efficiency 48.52 dps peak self - recharge
You have 2x PDS on your Drake? 
Ed. I guess you have 2x LSE, that would make more sense, barely.
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Cattegirn
Intellectual Wookies
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Posted - 2011.07.12 11:23:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Cattegirn on 12/07/2011 11:23:54
No, it has nothing to do with his competence. The numbers say it all. Either he has enough volley to bypass it or he doesn't. And it isn't 40 or whatever was claimed above. Peak recharge on Drakes with SPRs approach 400. Anyhow, it's remarkable how nobody has simply put down the math for it. It's a straight numbers question and the functions are obvious. I assume those who aren't writing to see their words in print are too lazy to do it. :)
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Brother ThantosXI
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
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Posted - 2011.07.13 05:33:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Edited by: Cattegirn on 12/07/2011 11:23:54
No, it has nothing to do with his competence. The numbers say it all. Either he has enough volley to bypass it or he doesn't. And it isn't 40 or whatever was claimed above. Peak recharge on Drakes with SPRs approach 400. Anyhow, it's remarkable how nobody has simply put down the math for it. It's a straight numbers question and the functions are obvious. I assume those who aren't writing to see their words in print are too lazy to do it. :)
I have killed 100 Drakes in my Drake....and I am confused, what's a SPR?
BTXI |
Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
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Posted - 2011.07.13 15:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Cattegirn
Edited by: Cattegirn on 10/07/2011 13:15:41
Originally by: Ka Jolo
I just want to clarify that the effective shield buffer is what helps during a fight, while the passive recharge is for after the fight, making whatever shield damage incurred inconsequential. Other PVP BC's I've flown take a steep toll in cap boosters or repair costs.
I guess I'll put the same question to you as I did to Furb. Is it not an exaggeration to say that in small gang fights the passive recharge on the Drake is only good after a fight? Can't we quantify how much a passive recharge is worth?
Barely anything. Even against small-sized gangs, the passive recharge is nearly irrelevant in terms of the amount of DPS faced. You'll live much longer when fit for more buffer.
Also, logistics anyone? I mean, only scrub gangs don't use them.
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Drykor - AHARM |
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.07.14 08:28:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Cattegirn
No, it has nothing to do with his competence. The numbers say it all. Either he has enough volley to bypass it or he doesn't. And it isn't 40 or whatever was claimed above. Peak recharge on Drakes with SPRs approach 400. Anyhow, it's remarkable how nobody has simply put down the math for it. It's a straight numbers question and the functions are obvious. I assume those who aren't writing to see their words in print are too lazy to do it. :)
Cap is life in pretty much any PvP and SPRs nerf your cap to the point it's hard to MWD, hold point and survive under neut(s). Additionally, that 400 DPS passive tank on your SPR Drake is more than surpassed by a bog-standard shield Cane's 700 DPS is and completely crippled by it's dual medium neuts.
Congratulations, you've taken a fight (Drake vs. Cane) you should either win or be able to walk away from and turned it into a loss.
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.07.15 19:19:00 -
[52]
The buffer fit I was talking about has over 101K Ehp, if you are looking at a semi-active tank I like PDS's better than SPRs, not that I would use it for a fight when I needed to point or do dps but its fair bait but this fit has 98K buffer and 570dps sustained defense efficiency with a peak recharge rate of 134.51 hps, its even capstable at 84% without the Nos.
[Drake, Bait]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Nosferatu II
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x5
The Buffer fit does much better damage
[Drake, Incursions]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I
Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Target Painter II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
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Dani Leone
Gallente
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
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Posted - 2011.07.15 22:52:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Zyress
The buffer fit I was talking about has over 101K Ehp, if you are looking at a semi-active tank I like PDS's better than SPRs, not that I would use it for a fight when I needed to point or do dps but its fair bait but this fit has 98K buffer and 570dps sustained defense efficiency with a peak recharge rate of 134.51 hps, its even capstable at 84% without the Nos.
[Drake, Bait]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Photon Scattering Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Medium Nosferatu II
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Medium Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x5
The Buffer fit does much better damage
[Drake, Incursions]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I
Y-S8 Hydrocarbon I Afterburners
Target Painter II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5
In both cases lacking a point so not truly useful as bait...
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