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Jackson Millenius
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:19:00 -
[1]
I mean you can use GTC's and plexes to buy characters, fill up corp assets, manipulate markets.
In terms of Null sec, you can use GTC's to provide the means of building a strong alliance that can hold space.
Am I misguided here in my reasoning? if I'm not then wouldn't that make all this drama a waste of everyone's time?
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.' |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:24:00 -
[2]
There's a strong cognitive bias against accepting the fact that "pay to win" has been a part of EVE since the early days, with layers upon layers of denial coated with a smidgen of ignorance every now and then.
Or in other words, PLEX P2W doesn't break the self-delusion of "fairness" for too many people, but a slightly more obvious P2W variation does do that for a bunch more people.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:24:00 -
[3]
To answer your questions in order
NO
YES
The drama was about the possibility that CCP would be introducing PTW through various poorly worded, or just plain revealing documents implying PTW was being considered and would be implemented. The drama was brought about through poor communication by CCP. You are rather late to be making yet another thread about it.
~~~
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Daedalus II
Helios Research
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:29:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Akita T
There's a strong cognitive bias against accepting the fact that "pay to win" has been a part of EVE since the early days, with layers upon layers of denial coated with a smidgen of ignorance every now and then.
Or in other words, PLEX P2W doesn't break the self-delusion of "fairness" for too many people, but a slightly more obvious P2W variation does do that for a bunch more people.
I agree with this 100%. It's nice with small points of light like this on these forums nowadays when the average forum warrior seems to get stupider by the minute.
___________
Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:38:00 -
[5]
On the other hand, EVE is supposed to be entertainment, so anything that messes with the suspension of disbelief for a significant portion of the playerbase is a somewhat valid issue.
Then again, talk about disproportionate response.
Heh.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Tautut
The Union Of The Snake
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:44:00 -
[6]
Blah blah ... Something about black market isk .... Blah blah Plex .. blah blah ...plugs the blah
gap.
Surely?
I'm.glad we had another opportunity to revisit this discussion.
The Union of the Snake [SNAKE]
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Jackson Millenius
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:51:00 -
[7]
So then all the uproar wasn't about the game becoming P2W, but about the playerbase getting their piece of the pie. That's understandable I guess.
As for this thread being late, Ya I guess it is. But it's a lot easier to discuss it in retrospect then to have tried to understand everything when all the nonsense was happening
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.' |
Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.07.13 17:56:00 -
[8]
Hasn't this already been answered in tons of other threads? Yes.
Isn't EVE already P2W through PLEX/GTC? No.
PLEX only lets you buy as much "win" as others are willing to sell you, and the the same kind of "win" as everyone else already has access to; P2W does not have any such limitations or restrictions.
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:01:00 -
[9]
If you consider PLEX to be pay to win already then some of the uproar was about "have to pay more money to CCP to win with aurum only items, regardless of if that is you or someone else that you then buy from on the eve-market as it circumvents industry".
Mainly though, opinion is divided on the varied facets of the debate, but CCP has clarified enough that for now, there isn't much to discuss apart from how much CCP should be charging for their vanity items (I don't care how much they charge).
~~~
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Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:04:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jonathan Ferguson on 13/07/2011 18:03:59
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542858
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
I wasn't there at the time, but I suspect the conversation back then went like this:
Players: PLEX is pay to win.
CCP: No it's not. And it lets us fight RMT. And it doesn't interfere with your economy. And it lets you pay less/nothing to play EVE. It's great.
Players: Yes it is. But we accept it as a compromise because we love CCP and we love Internet Spaceships in a sandbox.
Now:
CCP (and dev alts and clueless fanbois/trolls): PLEX has always been P2W. It's exactly like Aurum. Nothing to see here. Why u so mad?
"I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens |
Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:06:00 -
[11]
I thought with the rampant botting...it has been for along time now.
People seemed to have forgotten all about bots. But remember these companies doing this are making 6 figures. Some people were shown to have dropped a few grand in one purchase!
Which is why I find this debate hypocritical. Because with that kinda of cash going towards ISK or items I know many of these people are guilty of it or guilty of knowing about others doing it or encouraging it.
So if I cheat and bot, or buy 3rd party **** it's ok, but if I buy from CCP... I should not get invited to corporations or booted from a corp.
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Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:08:00 -
[12]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542112
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
PLEX is pay 2 win. But it was a compromise. It helps fight RMT. It helps players play for less money and/or manage more accounts. It doesn't mess up the in-game economy. It doesn't give CCP the incentive to break things and then sell the 'fixes' back to us. It doesn't give CCP an incentive to stop improving the overall game.
Aurum only benefits CCP and hurts EVE. Hilmar watched that video about MT and thought it sounded brilliant. But it only works in a F2P game. He's going to find that out the hard way.
tl;dr You clarified nothing. Please stop trying to explain things you don't understand. If I want to hear clueless mewling I'll tune in to Lost in EVE or read a devblog.
"I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens |
Leeroy McJenkins
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lady Spank
If you consider PLEX to be pay to win already then some of the uproar was about "have to pay more money to CCP to win with aurum only items, regardless of if that is you or someone else that you then buy from on the eve-market as it circumvents industry".
Mainly though, opinion is divided on the varied facets of the debate, but CCP has clarified enough that for now, there isn't much to discuss apart from how much CCP should be charging for their vanity items (I don't care how much they charge).
You need a monocle.
Originally by: Leeroy McJenkins
There is no real pvp in EVE, there is only winning or losing and then feeling :smug: about winning or sore about losing. There is nothing wrong with this arrangement.
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Leeroy McJenkins
You need a monocle.
There is no point.
~~~
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Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar
The Kairos Syndicate
Transmission Lost
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:17:00 -
[15]
Flawed is the thinking of many here.
PLEX means someone will trade game-time for items, and CCP is getting paid for said game-time as usual.
Items that already were here, will change hands.
Now, pay to win means anything you want will get spawned just for you, on your safe hangar. No one needs to sell it that you want, as many as you want will enter the game.
On top of that, some stuff that was impossible or near impossible to get/have might appear in the game through the P2W store.
Can't see the difference, my friend?
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Jackson Millenius
I mean you can use GTC's and plexes to buy characters, fill up corp assets, manipulate markets.
In terms of Null sec, you can use GTC's to provide the means of building a strong alliance that can hold space.
Am I misguided here in my reasoning? if I'm not then wouldn't that make all this drama a waste of everyone's time?
You cant currently fabricate pilots with high SP. You can only buy the ones that are up for sale. Someone has raised them from scratch. So currently you cant just buy a fleet to bbq your enemy because only so many high powered pilots exist on any side of any fleet equation.
If they introduce SP for cash that balance will be gone as it will be possible to create a bigger fleet than your enemy out of thin air.
.
Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:31:00 -
[17]
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=815
CCP Zulu: "Itæs clear that itæs the will of the community to keep virtual goods sales outside the spectrum of what we classify as the "merit economy". That refers to skills gained over time or items that have a gameplay impact. So after discussions, designs, brainstorming and all sorts of processes weæve come up with a strategy that weæve already polished with the help of the CSM and would now want to present to the larger community." (emphasis mine)
If it was clear then, when did it stop being clear?
"I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens |
Ineka
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jackson Millenius
I mean you can use GTC's and plexes to buy characters, fill up corp assets, manipulate markets.
In terms of Null sec, you can use GTC's to provide the means of building a strong alliance that can hold space.
Am I misguided here in my reasoning? if I'm not then wouldn't that make all this drama a waste of everyone's time?
Take it like this: you get GTC's you buy some 90M + char and a few dozens of ships with the fit's that go with, and your dozen friends does the same.
Isn't or is p2w? -simple, the answer depends if you are making part of those or not.
Just take a look at the thread about "horrible fits" and figure out by yourself how much p2w is already there, they only show fail fits of course, but you'll never see "win" fits and players doing nothing else but connect, warp to, shoot and win. And those are a big part of eve unless you're blind or naive.
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Trainwreck McGee
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:43:00 -
[19]
How many ****ing times does this thread have to be made.
You are not revealing anything we don't already know....you are not smart and made this thread for no ****ing reason
CCP don't **** is our sandbox
that is all
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:44:00 -
[20]
Is there any documented case of an alliance actually paying to win? I thought the main issue with 0.0 alliances was not their buying of ISK to win, but their selling of it to make money.
How often does a single player or small group actually win because they sold PLEXes?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:47:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tippia
PLEX only lets you buy as much "win" as others are willing to sell you, and the the same kind of "win" as everyone else already has access to; P2W does not have any such limitations or restrictions.
The point is kind of moot, for two separate but related reasons - we already have more than plenty people willing to buy PLEX for ISK for other purposes than mere subscription time topping, and the more people want to "buy a win" in form of ISK, the more likely the price of PLEX is to trend down, causing more people to want to buy some for ISK.
Other than brief statistic anomalies (like "son of multimillionaire spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on PLEX"), however much "win" the general public wants to buy (and can afford to), the general public gets (or changes its mind after seeing the pricetag).
All that changes is the exchange rate, which in turn influences in-game prices, but no matter how things shift, from a practical standpoint, there might as well be a limitless supply of ISK to be purchased in exchange for RL cash via PLEX.
In the end, it becomes a question of "how much cash you're willing to invest and what do you get for it".
Also, the particular implementation of the MT shop in EVE (all NEX items are tradeable for ISK, and can be created by somebody who doesn't personally spend any RL cash at all too by buying PLEX with ISK) and more importantly, its outrageous pricing (which makes it far more attractive for ISK-rich rather than RL-cash-rich people) which would most likely be maintained as long as the game continues to be subscription-based means that (again, from a PRACTICAL standpoint) non-vanity AUR items would be only a minuscule sliver more pay-to-winnish than regular game items (but in particular deadspace/faction/officer stuff) coupled with PLEX sales.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:48:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lady Spank
To answer your questions in order
NO
YES
The drama was about the possibility that CCP would be introducing PTW through various poorly worded, or just plain revealing documents implying PTW was being considered and would be implemented. The drama was brought about through poor communication by CCP. You are rather late to be making yet another thread about it.
Lady Spank! where have you beeeeennnnnn <3Ö
Quote:
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
 |
Tautut
The Union Of The Snake
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:49:00 -
[23]
When do I finally get to kiss Andie MacDowell?
The Union of the Snake [SNAKE]
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:52:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Lady Spank! where have you beeeeennnnnn <3Ö
Hello,
I have had a recent 'forum holiday' and have had to leave my 'associates' to deal with correspondence on Gal-Net.
The good news is, the Cat's still catching birds, the garden is looking lovely at this time of year and the work I did to the car and roof is still holding up perfectly.
~~~
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Lady Spank! where have you beeeeennnnnn <3Ö
Hello,
I have had a recent 'forum holiday' and have had to leave my 'associates' to deal with correspondence on Gal-Net.
The good news is, the Cat's still catching birds, the garden is looking lovely at this time of year and the work I did to the car and roof is still holding up perfectly.
Well it is good that you are back. If it isn't whole lotta baggage mispronouncing your name. You giving a more logical response than most other forum posters. Or simply trolling the trolls. I usually end up reading enjoyable refreshing banter.
Also, I don't think I saw you in any of the I quit threads or OMG EVE IS SO DEAD GUYS JUMP SHIP NAO, threads.
Quote:
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Grimpak
Gallente
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.07.13 18:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542112
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson
PLEX is pay 2 win. But it was a compromise. It helps fight RMT. It helps players play for less money and/or manage more accounts. It doesn't mess up the in-game economy. It doesn't give CCP the incentive to break things and then sell the 'fixes' back to us. It doesn't give CCP an incentive to stop improving the overall game.
Aurum only benefits CCP and hurts EVE. Hilmar watched that video about MT and thought it sounded brilliant. But it only works in a F2P game. He's going to find that out the hard way.
tl;dr You clarified nothing. Please stop trying to explain things you don't understand. If I want to hear clueless mewling I'll tune in to Lost in EVE or read a devblog.
this is actually an answer that I can agree with.
PLEX is p2w yes, but it's not intrusive and it doesn't add content to the game.
and that's why it's acceptable.
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.07.13 19:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akita T
There's a strong cognitive bias against accepting the fact that "pay to win" has been a part of EVE since the early days, with layers upon layers of denial coated with a smidgen of ignorance every now and then.
Or in other words, PLEX P2W doesn't break the self-delusion of "fairness" for too many people, but a slightly more obvious P2W variation does do that for a bunch more people.
I think the cognitive bias that you speak of is really just an inability to articulate the finer points of the difference between Plex-for-isk and Plex-for-gold-ammo / Plex-for-stuff-out-of-thin-air. I am under no delusion that plex-for-isk isn't pay to win, but there is clearly more to the debate than just that issue.
Anyone who seriously looks at the issue can see that Plex-for-isk is a pay to win situation, however it crucially does not ruin the economy (in the way that Plex-for-stuff-out-of-thin-air would), and it doesn't allow anyone to get anything that is unavailable by other means (in the the way that Plex-for-gold-ammo would).
Thus we see that "pay to win" is not a simply black or white, but more of a spectrum of related possibilities, some of which would be considerably more game breaking (for Eve) than others.
Now, if you look at the available 3rd party (eg "illegal") pay to win services, you can buy isk for cash, and you can buy stuff for cash. Isk-for-cash screws (or at least skews) the economy as that isk will have been farmed by bots. Isk-for-stuff is much less of a problem as it isn't very widespread, given that you can just buy isk and use that to buy stuff, and all that stuff will have been produced by somebody actually playing the game.
Given that the isk-for-cash option isn't just going to go away on its own (and indeed becomes more of a problem, the more successful Eve becomes), its not actually unreasonable to introduce a practical measure like isk-for-plex to limit the damage of isk-for-cash, especially as it simultaneously generates revenue for CCP (instead of corrupt prison guards) and encourages people to play the game who otherwise might not be able to afford to.
Equating this to a gold ammo or stuff-out-of-thin-air is too simplistic an argument to be relevant in this situation. I think its a bit fatuous to dismiss those on the no-MT side of the debate as ignorant and in denial; we are clearly capable of expressing arguments against pay-to-win whilst simultaneously conceding to the reasonable compromise of plex-for-isk, without being in denial.
----
Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:09:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Also, I don't think I saw you in any of the I quit threads or OMG EVE IS SO DEAD GUYS JUMP SHIP NAO, threads.
Well I actually like EVE.
~~~
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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.07.13 19:12:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Tippia on 13/07/2011 19:14:54
Originally by: Akita T
Also, the particular implementation of the MT shop in EVE (all NEX items are tradeable for ISK, and can be created by somebody who doesn't personally spend any RL cash at all too by buying PLEX with ISK) and more importantly, its outrageous pricing (which makes it far more attractive for ISK-rich rather than RL-cash-rich people) which would most likely be maintained as long as the game continues to be subscription-based means that (again, from a PRACTICAL standpoint) non-vanity AUR items would be only a minuscule sliver more pay-to-winnish than regular game items (but in particular deadspace/faction/officer stuff) coupled with PLEX sales.
àbut when people are airing the P2W concern, it is not about the NeX model, but about a model where the stuff is better than the normal market offers (thus displacing those items) and where there is a higher incentive to just buy and sit on the stuff than to put it onto the market (thus monopolising the "win").
What you're describing is why PLEX is not Pay-to-win, but that is also not the kind of pay-to-win that people are worried about, which is why the whole "don't we already have P2W?" question is ill-conceived ù or even uninformed ù to begin with.
àand then there's the detail that the NeX isn't really an MT shop. 
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.13 19:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Marchocias
I think the cognitive bias that you speak of is really just an unwillingness to articulate for the umpteenth time the finer points of the difference between Plex-for-isk and Plex-for-gold-ammo / Plex-for-stuff-out-of-thin-air merely to see the same misleading and thoroughly debunked talking points being raised by trolls/dev alts again.
FYP (though it was already pretty good.)
If PLEX were the same as aurum, CCP wouldn't have implemented aurum. They'd have sold vanity items for ISK (creating a desperately needed and long overdue ISK sink) and let people who wanted vanity items without grinding for them buy PLEX and sell them for ISK like they always have. CCP knows they're not the same and so do shills like Akita.
"I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens |
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