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iramch
Broken Wheel Mercantile and Trading Company Illusion of Solitude
0
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi all, Over the last two weeks I have been taken a serious look in to ASB balance as a whole, as I feel while there has been a large volume of debate of the ASB module little of it has been of substance. My aim in writing this paper is educate and hopeful foster a more enlightened look at ASB balance
Here is a link to the the Google document which contains the report as it is to long to post here.
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17j7aIwiPALovVl4MV95MAbdinSr2VTtrEmVfYrlgTQY
TLDR; A single ASB is balanced, Two ASBs are not.
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jimmyjam
Deadspace Exploration Conglomerate Clockwork Pineapple
59
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Posted - 2012.09.19 02:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Nice work bro |
nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
37
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Posted - 2012.09.19 04:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
or in other words:
XASB = 980 rep amount, max 13 charges = 13*980 rep amount(=12740) in 13*4(cycle time) = 52 Adding reload time: 60 = 12740 hp repaired in 112 seconds. That gives 113.75 hp/second for XASB
XLSB II = 600hp/5sec = 120hp/second
now:
1 Large Armor Repairer gives 800hp/15sec cycle time = 53.3 hp/sec
That means that to tank the same as one XASB you need two LAR II, that use not 500 PG like XASB but 4600.
If it wasn't enough there's capacitor needed to run 2 LAR.
One Heavy Cap Booster gives 800cap/12sec = 66.6 cap/sec. To run 2LAR II you need 400cap/15sec = 26.66*2 = 53.3 cap/sec
That's one more module to 'armor rep like xasb'.
4600 PG (2 LAR II) + 1925 PG (Heavy Cap Booster II) = 6525 PG (and 150CPU)
That's 3 slots and much bigger fitting requirements.
Although in your pdf you wrote that asb is balanced with shield boosters, you did 2 big mistakes. You didn't compare it to armor tanking and you completely forgot about capacitor.
So no, even one asb is imbalanced. |
Aamrr
283
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Posted - 2012.09.19 07:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
And yet you've managed to completely miss the point. Look at the capacitor consumption and get back to us... |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
168
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Posted - 2012.09.19 09:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
iramch wrote:Hi all, Over the last two weeks I have been taken a serious look in to ASB balance as a whole, as I feel while there has been a large volume of debate of the ASB module little of it has been of substance. My aim in writing this paper is educate and hopeful foster a more enlightened look at ASB balance Here is a link to the the Google document which contains the report as it is to long to post here. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17j7aIwiPALovVl4MV95MAbdinSr2VTtrEmVfYrlgTQYTLDR; A single ASB is balanced, Two ASBs are not.
You used a lot of words to point out that you don't really understand how stuff works. The trick to ASB is that you can use oversized ones while not running into cap problems without wasting another midslot on cap boosters.
Try running a medium shield booster on a harpy, see how long your cap lasts. Now fit 1 ASB, notice how it tanks a fckton more AND doesn't hurt your cap. Amat victoria curam. |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom Real Life Rejects
26
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Posted - 2012.09.19 14:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vilnius Zar wrote:iramch wrote:Hi all, Over the last two weeks I have been taken a serious look in to ASB balance as a whole, as I feel while there has been a large volume of debate of the ASB module little of it has been of substance. My aim in writing this paper is educate and hopeful foster a more enlightened look at ASB balance Here is a link to the the Google document which contains the report as it is to long to post here. https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17j7aIwiPALovVl4MV95MAbdinSr2VTtrEmVfYrlgTQYTLDR; A single ASB is balanced, Two ASBs are not. You used a lot of words to point out that you don't really understand how stuff works. The trick to ASB is that you can use oversized ones while not running into cap problems without wasting another midslot on cap boosters. Try running a medium shield booster on a harpy, see how long your cap lasts. Now fit 1 ASB, notice how it tanks a fckton more AND doesn't hurt your cap.
That is basically the problem is to oversize, in most cases, a shiled booster a cap booster is needed as well to keep from capping out in the "POV" period, then throw in even minor nueting and you are toast, with an ASB just meet fitting requirements and you are good to go.
The other thing is even if we take your analysis at face value, it would appear to me that the ASB is a little bit better than the SB (since many fights will be determined in the first minute), so the current module is meta 8 equililant minimum. |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
195
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Posted - 2012.09.19 14:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:or in other words:
XASB = 980 rep amount, max 13 charges = 13*980 rep amount(=12740) in 13*4(cycle time) = 52 Adding reload time: 60 = 12740 hp repaired in 112 seconds. That gives 113.75 hp/second for XASB
XLSB II = 600hp/5sec = 120hp/second
now:
1 Large Armor Repairer gives 800hp/15sec cycle time = 53.3 hp/sec
That means that to tank the same as one XASB you need two LAR II, that use not 500 PG like XASB but 4600.
If it wasn't enough there's capacitor needed to run 2 LAR.
One Heavy Cap Booster gives 800cap/12sec = 66.6 cap/sec. To run 2LAR II you need 400cap/15sec = 26.66*2 = 53.3 cap/sec
That's one more module to 'armor rep like xasb'.
4600 PG (2 LAR II) + 1925 PG (Heavy Cap Booster II) = 6525 PG (and 150CPU)
That's 3 slots and much bigger fitting requirements.
Although in your pdf you wrote that asb is balanced with shield boosters, you did 2 big mistakes. You didn't compare it to armor tanking and you completely forgot about capacitor.
So no, even one asb is imbalanced.
You could read it that way. Or you could read it as 'active armor sucks and needs to be fixed.'
It is a small but significant difference. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
39
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Posted - 2012.09.19 15:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hrett wrote:nahjustwarpin wrote:or in other words:
XASB = 980 rep amount, max 13 charges = 13*980 rep amount(=12740) in 13*4(cycle time) = 52 Adding reload time: 60 = 12740 hp repaired in 112 seconds. That gives 113.75 hp/second for XASB
XLSB II = 600hp/5sec = 120hp/second
now:
1 Large Armor Repairer gives 800hp/15sec cycle time = 53.3 hp/sec
That means that to tank the same as one XASB you need two LAR II, that use not 500 PG like XASB but 4600.
If it wasn't enough there's capacitor needed to run 2 LAR.
One Heavy Cap Booster gives 800cap/12sec = 66.6 cap/sec. To run 2LAR II you need 400cap/15sec = 26.66*2 = 53.3 cap/sec
That's one more module to 'armor rep like xasb'.
4600 PG (2 LAR II) + 1925 PG (Heavy Cap Booster II) = 6525 PG (and 150CPU)
That's 3 slots and much bigger fitting requirements.
Although in your pdf you wrote that asb is balanced with shield boosters, you did 2 big mistakes. You didn't compare it to armor tanking and you completely forgot about capacitor.
So no, even one asb is imbalanced. You could read it that way. Or you could read it as 'active armor sucks and needs to be fixed.' It is a small but significant difference.
i think you might be right, armor tanking should require 13 times more powergrid and use 3 slots instead of 1 while repping the same amount. It's completely balanced! |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
748
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
nahjustwarpin wrote:or in other words:
XASB = 980 rep amount, max 13 charges = 13*980 rep amount(=12740) in 13*4(cycle time) = 52 Adding reload time: 60 = 12740 hp repaired in 112 seconds. That gives 113.75 hp/second for XASB
XLSB II = 600hp/5sec = 120hp/second
now:
1 Large Armor Repairer gives 800hp/15sec cycle time = 53.3 hp/sec
That means that to tank the same as one XASB you need two LAR II, that use not 500 PG like XASB but 4600.
If it wasn't enough there's capacitor needed to run 2 LAR.
One Heavy Cap Booster gives 800cap/12sec = 66.6 cap/sec. To run 2LAR II you need 400cap/15sec = 26.66*2 = 53.3 cap/sec
That's one more module to 'armor rep like xasb'.
4600 PG (2 LAR II) + 1925 PG (Heavy Cap Booster II) = 6525 PG (and 150CPU)
That's 3 slots and much bigger fitting requirements.
Although in your pdf you wrote that asb is balanced with shield boosters, you did 2 big mistakes. You didn't compare it to armor tanking and you completely forgot about capacitor.
So no, even one asb is imbalanced.
Now could you please enlighten some persons in this thread with real numbers for this:
Character with BC5 Med projectiles spec 4 fittings yadayada 5, command ships 4. Ship used: Sleipnir 425mm autocanons Double XL-ASB Strong blue pill
Pos kissing boosting Loki
Would you please mind to educate some idiots? -I'm tired of trying.
Edit: oups just forgot but eventually you can also add crystal set, the high grade of course. brb |
Seraph IX Basarab
Vengance Inc.
31
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Posted - 2012.09.19 18:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
ASB is probably the one major item in game that made me stop and say "wow...that's kind of broken." My 2 cents. |
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Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom Real Life Rejects
27
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Posted - 2012.09.19 19:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
The amusing thing about the ASB conceptionally in isolation are only a little out of balance, it is when you actually work with them they get better when you try top push hteir limits they crush all oposition (at the small group level, buffer still rules vs massive volley damage. )
For various reasons they have no or very little diminsihing returns when pushed and a few cases the advantage seems like 1+1 = 2.5 (duall xl asb). SB have cap issues if stacked, buffer explodes your sig, resist modes are stack nerfed, multiple asb just cover for each other. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2246
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Posted - 2012.09.19 20:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
ASBs are being nerfed, and the first wave of nerfs is already announced.
They are not fine.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Zarnak Wulf
Imperial Outlaws
570
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Posted - 2012.09.19 22:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it. |
Ashera Yune
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
66
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Posted - 2012.09.20 02:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Active Armor tanking is crap. Anyone with half a brain knows that. "Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth."
-áKahlil Gibran |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
197
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Posted - 2012.09.20 03:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it.
Link please? I don't see it in F&I... I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Taoist Dragon
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
28
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Posted - 2012.09.20 03:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ashera Yune wrote:Active Armor tanking is crap. Anyone with half a brain knows that.
Hmm so I guess I should just scrap all my active armour tanking frigs that I have so much fun in then?
errrr
NO!
Active armour is fine in small/solo scale fights but doesn't scale up very well..... That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything. |
Robert Lefcourt
Audentia et Artis E.B.O.L.A.
10
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Posted - 2012.09.20 04:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Ashera Yune wrote:Active Armor tanking is crap. Anyone with half a brain knows that. Hmm so I guess I should just scrap all my active armour tanking frigs that I have so much fun in then? errrr NO! Active armour is fine in small/solo scale fights but doesn't scale up very well.....
It's fine for things that don't get hit too much, for instance speed tanks. But for brawlers which really get in each others face, there are few ships that can pull off a decent active tank and survive, for instance, an armor-cane.
regards,
rob |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
667
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Posted - 2012.09.20 04:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it. Link please? I don't see it in F&I...
It's not in F&I. Here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155474&find=unread |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
197
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Posted - 2012.09.20 06:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Hrett wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it. Link please? I don't see it in F&I... It's not in F&I. Here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155474&find=unread
Thank you.
Changes seem strange because they nerf single fits too...
I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
57
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Posted - 2012.09.20 06:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hrett wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Hrett wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:The ASB as it is being proposed will only be able to fit 7 charges rather then 10. Navy will allow 9 charges. MASB will eventually get navy 50s to load 9. The XLASB will have a duration of 5 seconds rather then 4. So all in all - 30% less reps. SASB, which noone I think used now never will be. MASB will be inferior to an MSE until they roll out the navy caps for it. Link please? I don't see it in F&I... It's not in F&I. Here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155474&find=unread Thank you. Changes seem strange because they nerf single fits too...
Their way of subtly saying they felt single fits were op as well I'm guessing. ;) |
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Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard Gl0rious Bastards
113
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Posted - 2012.09.20 06:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:ASB is probably the one major item in game that made me stop and say "wow...that's kind of broken." My 2 cents.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
418
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Posted - 2012.09.20 09:13:00 -
[22] - Quote
people will never stop bitching about either shield or armor being OP, until both become the same. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
10
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Posted - 2012.09.20 10:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:people will never stop bitching about either shield or armor being OP, until both become the same. I remember myself bitching about Shields/Armor.
But this isn't about Shields/Armor, it's about ASB/Anything. Granted, buffer still works, but everything else has serious issues issues. That said, active tank will never (and should not) have edge over buffer in large gangs, but it isn't intended either.
And one thing I really don't want to happen is shields/armor becoming the same. |
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