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Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
219
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Posted - 2012.09.20 19:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Few comments :
1) As was already stated you will probably need to adjust high-end DED sites where we have to deal with super torpedoes. With target switching capability those sites will become wasted content. It is already taking too much time to do them and if they will require over pimped fleets with full logi support we won't be bothering with them any more.
2) About drones in general : Them drones love to use their MWD when webbed. drone + web == dead drone There is no way around it. No amount of skill or effort will allow you to save that drone.
Fun facts : Medium drones have bigger signature than frigates. Heavy drones have signature of a cruiser.
Now multiply that by mwd sig bloom, close-to-zero tanking capability and single-digit-IQ of that drone. There is a reason why there is no point in using drones in wormholes ( without gang ).
Heavy drones are already gimped in pve. This change will make them terribly inefficient ( even more than they are now ). Forcing all drone users to use only sentries will not be considered as good design.
Keep in mind that constant recalling/redeploying/reassigning drones is *not* fun game mechanics.
Proposition : - no webs on drones ( all other forms of ewar are fine ) - light drones targeted by frigates only ( no destroyers ) - medium drones targeted by short range cruisers only - heavy drones targeted by short range cruisers/battlecruisers - no more than 4 normal rats ( 2 elite ) shooting at single drone at the same time |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
220
|
Posted - 2012.09.20 20:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote: A counter-proposition:
- small drones have the sig radius of shuttles, at most; med drones of small frigates; heavies, somewhere between frigate and destroyer; - drones have two rules when webbed: 1) do not fire MWD; 2) auto-recall to drone bay, only firing MWD once clear of the web; - drone UI gets updated so that you can see when one of your drones is being targeted, and by which and how many ships. Also, make it possible to see what EWAR is on them.
Drone management would still have to be careful, like it is now, but at least you could see that your drones were in peril, and by whom, and the small sig radius would give you time to adjust tactics while they were being targeted. Also, the drones would no longer suicide themselves by MWDing while webbed.
Oh, I do think that drones should have their signature and sig bloom reduced. It could make real drone boats much more attractive for pvp. But that's a different thing entirely and it would require some serious rebalancing. Maybe some day we'll get there
I don't know about that auto recall thing but not using mwd would have some sense ( maybe on option similar to 'focus-fire' ).
Drone UI just needs total redesign in general.
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Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
221
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Posted - 2012.09.20 21:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Don't think that your work is not appreciated. Anyone having the game's best interest at hearth knows that pve needs to be redone because in it's current state it is quite laughable. However there are some things, which needs to be taken into consideration here.
You are trying to redo pve, which will involve total redefinition of rats and redesign of sites. As you said AI is just a start. The problem is that the current site mechanics were not intended with 'smart' rats in mind. You were already made aware of some sites that will need some mechanics changed to a degree ( mostly high-end DEDs ).
Another thing is ninja missioning/exploration and catching ratting ships. I haven't put enough thought to it yet but I'm wondering if this change won't eliminate those forms of pvp.
About drones - I will just repost this here :
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:Few comments :
1) As was already stated you will probably need to adjust high-end DED sites where we have to deal with super torpedoes. With target switching capability those sites will become wasted content. It is already taking too much time to do them and if they will require over pimped fleets with full logi support we won't be bothering with them any more.already covered
2) About drones in general : Them drones love to use their MWD when webbed. drone + web == dead drone There is no way around it. No amount of skill or effort will allow you to save that drone.
Fun facts : Medium drones have bigger signature than frigates. Heavy drones have signature of a cruiser.
Now multiply that by mwd sig bloom, close-to-zero tanking capability and single-digit-IQ of that drone. There is a reason why there is no point in using drones in wormholes ( without gang ).
Heavy drones are already gimped in pve. This change will make them terribly inefficient ( even more than they are now ). Forcing all drone users to use only sentries will not be considered as good design.
Keep in mind that constant recalling/redeploying/reassigning drones is *not* fun game mechanics.
Proposition : - no webs on drones ( all other forms of ewar are fine ) - light drones targeted by frigates only ( no destroyers ) - medium drones targeted by short range cruisers only - heavy drones targeted by short range cruisers/battlecruisers - no more than 4 normal rats ( 2 elite ) shooting at single drone at the same time |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
223
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 06:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Anya Ohaya wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Is this effectively the death knell for the Navy - regular Dominix for level 4 mission running? No. I've run C1 and C2 wormholes with a Myrmidon and not lost any drones. If you keep an eye on them you can keep them alive. Sleepers are often quite slow to re target. Sometimes you can recall the drones when you see the sleeper go from red to yellow and force them sleeper to switch back before they have even locked the drone. Sleepers also hate ECM, so a boat with a couple of ECM mods can keep aggro off the drones as well. If you tank with the drones you can reduce a lot of incoming DPS. A Dominix has room for a lot of T1 drones to use as cannon fodder.
You are forgetting one thing. In C1 and C2 wormholes the rats don't web. The problem is not with rats switching targets. The problem is with rats switching targets and webbing your drones, which usually equals insta-pop. |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
224
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Posted - 2012.09.22 09:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Apparently some posters post before thinking. They 'think' that it's some nerf ( deserved or not ) to hisec missioning making them harder to farm.
What are the most popular ships for L4 missions? - Caldari Missile Boats ( Drake, Tengu, CNR and SNI ) - Pirate Battleships ( Machariel and Nightmare ) - Marauders - Dominix ( Sentries + Rails ) - Rattlesnake ( Sentries + Cruise ) - AFK Dominix ( Sentries + remote reps )
Will those AI changes influence the most popular boats used for missioning? No. Nothing will change here.
Missile Boats - unaffected Pirate Battleships - unaffected Marauders - unaffected Sentry Dominix - unaffected Sentry Rattlesnake - unaffected AFK Dominix - probably unaffected ( depends on how many rats can target your drones at the same time )
What will it affect : - pvp in pve environment ( hunting ratters and plexers, makes bombers ( and probably recons ) useless for this kind of pvp ) - mobile drone boats ( if your drones can be webbed then it will make those ships practically useless in pve, you will be forced to use only sentries ) - nullsec group plexing ( high end DEDs, we all know nullsec needs a nerf in that area ) |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
224
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 11:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote: It appears that you are labouring under the mistaken impression that Dominix mission runners do not use Hammers, Hobs and Ogres.
I said 'the most popular' boats. Ogre Dominix isn't exactly popular and on sentry Domi you are using mobile drones to kill rats when they get too close ( using sentries is still much more effective when those rats are in the med/long range ) and recalling drones from close ranges is not a problem.
Also I said :
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote: What will it affect : ... - mobile drone boats ( if your drones can be webbed then it will make those ships practically useless in pve, you will be forced to use only sentries ) ...
Heavy drone Dominix is a 'mobile drone boat' so I'm not 'labouring under the mistaken impression'  The only problem for those boats will be the webbing when you use mobile drones in long range ( which I pointed out in my previous posts ) but this is only a matter of tweaking webs used by rats currently ( so that they won't work on drones, which I also pointed out in previous posts ).
I have been referring to posters who are saying about 'killing missioning' or 'obsoleting Gallente'. Those are all exaggerations and that is my point. |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
226
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 18:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: - Drake can get rid of web/scram via Missiles but it's gonna hurt DPS - CNR, SNI, Machariel,Nightmare and Marauders situationally DEPEND on their light drones to remove web/scram frigs
If light drones are shot down those ships will be screwed.
So don't let them being shot down?
I said that drones shouldn't be affected by pve webs, which is the biggest problem here. Light drones have small enough sig meaning they won't be targeted by all rats ( target switching depends on signature radius ). Additionally they are very fast so if they won't be affected by webs ( something I pointed out several time already ) you won't have any problems keeping them alive.
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: - Sentry Dominix and Rattlesnake will be able to deal but the constant scooping and launching will hurt DPS - AFK Dominix with reppers might actually be the ship best suited for dealing with aggro switching - depending on the amount of threat generated by the reps
Sentries shouldn't be targeted by battleships because of sig radius difference when using battleship. Additionally they are very sturdy so even in case of aggro switch you won't have to recall them that often and you can easily spare one remote rep for them on those ships. |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
226
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 18:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
derp |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
226
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 20:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
So don't let them being shot down?
I said that drones shouldn't be affected by pve webs, which is the biggest problem here. Light drones have small enough sig meaning they won't be targeted by all rats ( target switching depends on signature radius ). Additionally they are very fast so if they won't be affected by webs ( something I pointed out several time already ) you won't have any problems keeping them alive.
Well, they ARE affected by webs right now. So far there is no indication that this will change, no matter how much you wish for it. Also the difference in sig between your BS and your drones should cause every single frig to shift to your drones and let me tell you that light drones don't take easily to being targeted by multiple frigs. There will be nothing left to recover once you notice the aggro.
Webs are the only problem and I pointed it out several times before. They cannot affect drones to make it work. That is the *only* problem.
Test server is accessible to anyone. Maybe you should try to actually see how it works by yourself. I did and it's not as bad as people claim. I cleared Sanctum and my drones were aggroed only several times by several rats. Most rats ignored them all together. Had to recall my light drones only 3 times. Also - most frigs ignore drones and focus on your ship instead. Cruisers, Battlecruisers and Battleships never switched to drones. |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
226
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 22:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Adigard wrote: The fact that drones ARE affected by webs today means they will be affected once this change goes into affect.
And what makes you think that?
Maybe if you did what I suggested and tried that on the test server and then provided some actual feedback not typical whining you could actually make them see that there is a problem ( real not theoretical ).
Of course whining is easier, no effort required. |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
226
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 07:09:00 -
[11] - Quote

Who's the poor reader here.
You said :
Adigard wrote: The fact that drones ARE affected by webs today means they will be affected once this change goes into affect.
In other words you say that it will not change because it's working like that now, which in itself is quite silly logic.
Maybe you missed something so let me explain : - this was announced only 4 days ago - it will be part of winter expansion meaning it's nearly three months before it hits you - info is released so early so YOU can provide some feedback - This thread have been created to provide ACTUAL feedback from testing
I repeat :
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:Maybe if you did what I suggested and tried that on the test server and then provided some actual feedback not typical whining you could actually make them see that there is a problem ( real not theoretical ).
If you did at least some testing you would have seen that drone hate of new AI is MINIMAL. In all of my tests with Dominix I had to recall drones only a couple of times ( light drones to be specific, heavy drones were never targeted ). |

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
226
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 11:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Adigard wrote: /facepalm... stop poasting, m'kay?
Why so mad?
Adigard wrote: I actually did testing, early in the wekend and my results were TOTALLY different from whatever test you did.
That's what testing in different environments is about.
Adigard wrote: But why post that HERE? Is this the testing thread and I just mis-read something? No, guess it isn't...
No but this one is :
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
I didn't see you posting there. |
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