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Hagika
Testie Ticklers Anonymous
4
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Posted - 2012.09.27 00:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
half of eve wrote:Soon Shin wrote: The problem is that short range missiles don't even have higher absolute accuracy than its longer range counterpart.
Its like saying that short range turrets are fine even though they don't get bonus from motion prediction that long range turrets are.
What do you have to say about that?
Do you not see a flaw in your reasoning?
There is no flaw here. Longer range turrets have better effective tracking than shorter range ones, since tracking is affected by range. If you were to balance missiles despite their "tracking" not being affected by range, you could do so by either making the close range OR the long range better at applying their damage, because in the end either can be justified quite easily. That said, you do seem to ignore a few key factors in missile balancing: DPS/range before bonuses (max skills, t1 ammo) of the 4 main large weapon types: 800mm AC II: 43 / 3km Mega Pulse II: 48 / 15km Neutron Blaster II: 59 / 4.5km Torp launcher II: 62 / 20km And I know from your other posts that you want to include falloff in range, which is fine, but then we also have to take into account the reduced damage from fighting in falloff (which averages out to full DPS at optimal, and half dps anywhere from optimal+1m to 2X falloff) so I'll throw those numbers out there, mostly because I'm bored: Average DPS of each main BS weapon from 0 - optimal + 2X falloff: 800mm AC II: 23.7 / 51km Mega Pulse II 34.3: / 35km Neutron Blaster II: 33.85 / 30.5km Torp launcher II: 62 / 20km Less total range (though counting range as optimal+2X falloff is hilariously stupid to begin with) but MUCH more DPS applied. This also ignores damage types and cap use. The point I'm trying to make here is that you can't just point out the flaws of a weapon system and claim that it's unbalanced because of that. All weapons have drawbacks, that's how they're supposed to be. If you want to show that something is underpowered, prove that it's ADVANTAGES are crap. EDIT: Soon Shin wrote: TC and TE will NOT fix the issue that long range missiles will have superior "tracking" and "damage application" than short range missiles; due to the fact that only guided missiles can get reduction in exp radius from skills and rigs
Trading damage application for raw DPS is arguably the most important aspect of balancing any weapon system in any game ever. This is working as intended. Soon Shin wrote: Neither will it address the issue that Torpedoes still have the same range as HAMs. Why do every Larger weapon have more range than its shorter range counterpart, except for Torpedoes.
So why buff torps instead of nerfing HAMs? Hams themselves aren't bad, the reason they see little use is that heavies are hilariously OP.
Nerf HAMS? are you insane? Its either that or you have never bothered to use them, because even up close people refuse to use them...A drake with heavies up close does better applied dps than with HAMS..
They also eat a bunch of PG in which you cant even fit them on a caracal and on a Cerb they are laughable. Hell a cerb is laughable and its almost as bad as the Eagle, which is pretty much useless |

Hagika
Testie Ticklers Anonymous
4
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Posted - 2012.09.27 00:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
half of eve wrote:Soon Shin wrote:Passive aggressive jab goes here.
From my last post: Half of eve wrote: The difference here is that missile tracking doesn't get affected by range, so you could make an argument that missiles SHOULD track better at close range (looking at base tracking) or that they shouldn't (looking at effective tracking)
Also aren't most cruisers in the 125m sig radius anyway? Oh and it's also worth noting that heavy missiles are laughably OP, and have been for ages, arguing that HAMs are worse than heavies doesn't really mean anything when the same can be said of literally every single medium weapon system in the game, both close AND long range, but then I already mentioned that, had you bothered to read my last post.
You keep mentioning that everything is laughably over powered with missiles.. Yet what weapon system is most common in PVP by far? Guns... what ships are in the far majority of use? Armor...Drake is the only 1 true pvp ship caldari has and its use because of range and tank, the dps is far less than its gun counterparts.
It was put into use because A. Its easy for a new person to get into and can be a part of the fleet. B. in a fleet fight, it gave logi time to throw reps on it before it goes pop. When people want high dps fleets, its guns... The only reason people really complain about a drake blob is because they just cant hop in and beat them instantly, nor are they creative enough fly in, tackle and web the anchor and then proceed to beat the crap of the rest of the ships.
What beats a drake fleet? An alpha fleet... Once again guns... People are to lazy to think outside the box and with Goon numbers its hard to contest most of their fleets. Just like a typical left, they blame the ship, not the people..
Once the ship has been nerfed into the ground as you go on cheering, then comes Cane fleets, with arts or heavy tanked with autos. Then of course when large numbers are brought, you will complain how they need to be nerfed too. Then will come HAC fleets, because they are too mobile and high dps.. Then comes BS fleets, because they will be too powerful. The circle will continue till every ship has been nerfed, all because you all complain when you can not handle something.
This circle has continued and these nerfs come around because of cry babies..
Perhaps CCP needs to nerf you whiners. |

Hagika
Testie Ticklers Anonymous
4
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Posted - 2012.09.27 00:45:00 -
[33] - Quote
Also for those who actually never bothered to try and use torps. You can null a ton of torp damage just by having a MWD on your ship. Ever see Raven fleets? Nope... They are best used for station games in which any one of the other races BS's do station games better..
Of all races, caldari has the least number of pvp ships used. Drake being the only real one, aside from a handful of tengus..
After drake comes canes with a close 2nd and then its a mix of Minnie,Amarr and gallente in which Minnie makes up the far majority of the ships used in pvp.
If missiles were so over powered, why are caldari and missiles ships the least used of all the ships in pvp these days? Oh it must be because people feel guilty of using such over powered weapons right? |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
683
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Posted - 2012.09.27 04:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Hagika wrote:Nerf HAMS? are you insane? Its either that or you have never bothered to use them, because even up close people refuse to use them...A drake with heavies up close does better applied dps than with HAMS..
They also eat a bunch of PG in which you cant even fit them on a caracal and on a Cerb they are laughable. Hell a cerb is laughable and its almost as bad as the Eagle, which is pretty much useless
HAM Drake used to be the default PvP fit (back when people were just learning that Drakes were good in PvP). It will be so again. And it shouldn't have any trouble applying damage. Are you intentionally missing the part where missiles are getting benefits from tracking mods?
As for the fitting issues... yes. They exist. Hopefully they'll disappear with the ship rebalancing.
Also: you seriously know how to rant a thread into the ground without making a point. |

Robert Lefcourt
Audentia et Artis E.B.O.L.A.
10
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Posted - 2012.09.27 12:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
Soon Shin wrote:Tragedy wrote:OOORRRRR nerf HAMs range. To around say 15kms. Which you could get to around 25-30 with tracking enhancers. Just like med autocannons! Then torpedos could get to 30-40 with the TEs, still better than blasters right? Right?
I like my idea better. Lex Luther says: WRONG! Neutron Blasters with T1 Antimatter: 4.5 optimal + 13 km falloff. Optimal + 2 x falloff= max range. = 31 km max range. Still does damage within this range Torpedo Launcher with T1 Mjolnir: <20.3 ~ 16-18 km based on missile acceleration. Beyond that range does zero damage.
Well, so Torpedoes do full damage out to 18km - blasters will only do half. Where the hell is the problem?
reagrds,
rob |

Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
522
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Posted - 2012.09.27 12:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
i always thought it was pretty stupid from day one to have missile skills that dont effect all the missiles.
Lets change motion prediction skill so it only effects long range weapon platforms! no? exactly. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |

Zeomebuch Nova
Metalworks
19
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Posted - 2012.10.03 22:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Robert Lefcourt wrote:Soon Shin wrote:Tragedy wrote:OOORRRRR nerf HAMs range. To around say 15kms. Which you could get to around 25-30 with tracking enhancers. Just like med autocannons! Then torpedos could get to 30-40 with the TEs, still better than blasters right? Right?
I like my idea better. Lex Luther says: WRONG! Neutron Blasters with T1 Antimatter: 4.5 optimal + 13 km falloff. Optimal + 2 x falloff= max range. = 31 km max range. Still does damage within this range Torpedo Launcher with T1 Mjolnir: <20.3 ~ 16-18 km based on missile acceleration. Beyond that range does zero damage. Well, so Torpedoes do full damage out to 18km - blasters will only do half. Where the hell is the problem? reagrds, rob
that torps will never do full damage. |

Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
154
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Posted - 2012.10.04 18:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:i always thought it was pretty stupid from day one to have missile skills that dont effect all the missiles.
Lets change motion prediction skill so it only effects long range weapon platforms! no? exactly.
Exactly my point. It's a good thing CCP Fozzie realized such. All missiles will receive bonus from gmp in the expansion .
Now it remains to be see how damage application will perform.
Torpedoes still need more range but BS class missiles will be made better in time. |

Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
89
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Posted - 2012.10.04 21:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
Zeomebuch Nova wrote:problem is that torps will never do full damage.
Other problems are:
- you can load the neutron blaster with other T1 ammo to get more range. The torpedo launcher needs T2 ammo for that. - there are modules for extending turret range. There are no modules that extend missile range (yet?) |

Taoist Dragon
Forced Penetration
40
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Posted - 2012.10.04 22:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
YOU all do realise that this is a threadnaught in the F&I section don't you?! 
Go look at it and see how they are changing missiles for the winter expansion....
Or
just continue your whining and trumpet blowing between yourselves!!  That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything. |

half of eve
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2012.10.04 22:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Hagika wrote:
You keep mentioning that everything is laughably over powered with missiles.. Yet what weapon system is most common in PVP by far? Guns... what ships are in the far majority of use? Armor...Drake is the only 1 true pvp ship caldari has and its use because of range and tank, the dps is far less than its gun counterparts.
Couple problems with that: 1) Missiles are only one of the 4 main weapon systems, and then only represent half the ships in the caldari lineup. If, in total, missiles made up for anything more than a quarter of the total weapons being used then that would indicate some sort of balance problem 2)Heavy missiles are, by FAR, the most used weapon system in the game, the difference is so huge that there tend to be more heavy missiles showing up on KMs than the next 4 or 5 weapon systems COMBINED. The most popular ship? The drake of course, usually followed closely by the tengu.
Oh and where did you get the idea that shields are used less than armor in pvp? Even in large fleets you have rokhs, drakes, tengus and maelstroms, and in smaller gangs it's a no contest win for shields. Armor gets used certainly, but not more than shields.
Hagika wrote:
What beats a drake fleet? An alpha fleet... Once again guns... People are to lazy to think outside the box and with Goon numbers its hard to contest most of their fleets. Just like a typical left, they blame the ship, not the people..
And what beats an alpha fleet? Tengus, once again with heavy missiles.
Hagika wrote: Once the ship has been nerfed into the ground as you go on cheering, then comes Cane fleets, with arts or heavy tanked with autos. Then of course when large numbers are brought, you will complain how they need to be nerfed too.
Let me ask you something: If the game is balanced as it is, and heavy missiles don't need a nerf, why aren't people fielding cane fleets NOW? It's because the drake is provably, objectively better, which means that there's a lack of balance somewhere, and either canes (along with every other ship out there that isn't a drake) need a buff, or drakes need a nerf.
Hagika wrote: This circle has continued and these nerfs come around because of cry babies..
Perhaps CCP needs to nerf you whiners.
Because a game where nearly a third of the kills are obtained by 1 ship type is super fun amirite? |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4808
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Posted - 2012.10.05 08:28:00 -
[42] - Quote
Well now Torps, HAMs and Rockets are getting a whopping buff.
Mission accomplished, I guess.
So: let's talk about Torp CNRs with dual Hydraulic Thruster rigs, and a T2 Rigor?
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
451
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Posted - 2012.10.05 08:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
I would like to see how long it takes for hydraulic thruster-rigged TE-nano Drake to become FOTM. Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed.
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Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
390
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Posted - 2012.10.05 09:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Well now Torps, HAMs and Rockets are getting a whopping buff.
Mission accomplished, I guess.
So: let's talk about Torp CNRs with dual Hydraulic Thruster rigs, and a T2 Rigor?
How about rocket frigates? Kiting with Jav with no ship velocity penalty, with damage application outside web range massively improved by the reduced explosion radius from GMP. |
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