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Delucian	Posted - 2011.07.30 22:35:00 - [1] Recently joined Red vs Blue, so doing a lot of low end Frig fighting. I am trained for T2 rockets but have poor (only to level 3) gun skills. Solid shield and armor skills. I am considering using one of three ships and training gun skills on it, but need some advice. Right now I am thinking; Merlin (leverages my Caldari shp and shield skills and seems to be the most versatile) Punished (would leverage my Vengeance skills - can tank a lot for a Frig) Ritter (concerned about how thin it is, but like the ship - right now I use it as a scout) Not going to go hybrids - so it's either auto cannons or lasers. Thoughts?
Hwong Jian	Posted - 2011.07.30 22:52:00 - [2] Rifter? Thin? Did you really just say that? Ok, here's what you need to put on your rifter: High: 3x 150mm AC Small Neut Medium: MWD Scram MSE Low: DC MAPC Nano Rigs: 3x Small CDFE Nearly 3k shields, about 100 dps, and you are the bane of ships that rely on cap for anything (guns, tank, web, etc). [Disclaimer: Based on skills, your mileage may vary.] The rifter is by no means thin.
Delucian	Posted - 2011.07.30 23:47:00 - [3] Compared to the Punisher (14k) and the Merlin (7-8k), it's paper thin! It does have speedon it's side no denying that.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2011.07.31 00:02:00 - [4] Edited by: Omara Otawan on 31/07/2011 00:02:28 Originally by: Delucian Not going to go hybrids - so it's either auto cannons or lasers. Thoughts? I'd strongly suggest to reconsider the above statement. Small hybrids are great weapons, and the frigates using them are generally considered to be the strongest all around. As for your ship choice, the Merlin is probably the best t1 frig in 1on1 combat. The Rifter is versatile and can be adapted as a cheap fleet ship if need be. My personal favourite of the three is 75mm rail Merlin.
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.07.31 08:32:00 - [5] It really depends on the situation. Both the Merlin as Punisher favour tank over speed and the Rifter is the other way round. Sometimes you need tank, sometimes you need speed. The problem (I assume) you are facing is that you're new to PVP, and (thus) you tend to think in tank too much while clinging to numbers found in EFT, which you can comprehend; EHP. Not trying to dis you or anything, not at all but it's just a logical view most new players start out with. And it's almost always the wrong way of looking at it. Would it be a controlled 1v1 fight then you could state that the ship with the most EHP/DPS combo would possibly win. But PVP isn't a controlled scenario, not even in RVB. - Speed is very much a factor, either to get out of trouble or to get into the fight. If you are faster than your opponent you can dictate range so is he's shorter range than you, you can get some distance and if you're shorter range than him you can stick close. When it comes to frigate weapons there's a BIG difference between being at 1km or at 6km from the target dps-wise and it all depends on ship, fitting and ammo which one you and your target favour. So to control range means you control the fight resulting in you controlling the outcome. You control range by having a fast agile ship and by fitting a web. - damage type selection helps with optimising your damage onto that specific target and it can make a HUGE difference. Projectiles are very effective at doing this while not losing any dps. Missiles can do this but you'll lose dps if your ship gets a bonus to specific types. Hybrids and Lasers can not change damage types so they have to hope that it's not too bad. Therefore not using hybrids or lasers puts you in control of your applied dps, thus helping you control the outcome of the fight. - cap use of turrets, both hybrids as lasers use cap to fire. The result is twofold; first of all if you get neuted your dps stops working, which is quite annoying. Secondly it forces you to be less mobile and more careful, if you use the MWD too much you enter the fight at low cap putting you at a disadvantage and if you want to active tank as well then that seriously doesn't help. - tracking, to actually apply your dps your turrets have to hit first. This has to do with range but also very much with tracking. The Rifter gets a tracking bonus which will be very beneficial when you're in a "dead-lock" with another frigate; an AB fit rifter with scram+web will orbit you as fast as he can, HE has the superior tracking so he'll have less issues with the angular velocity, resulting in more applied dps compared to it's target. There's more variables and things to worry about but this should be enough to explain to you that there's more to ships, fittings and PVP than just tanking numbers, or dps numbers for that matter. All 3 are viable; Rifter, Merlin and Punisher but not necessarily for the reasons you summed up. Personally I would pick the one based the race I want to focus on and leave it at that, it's just RVB afterall. ___ Abriael VonRosen lost a crapfit hauler in Rancer, showing he has no clue on EVE and thus his words mean nothing.
Delucian	Posted - 2011.07.31 13:46:00 - [6] Magnus - thanks for your input, it all rings ver true. I do understand that controlling range is controlling the fight to a large degree. Your detail around the weapon and ammo selection has solidified my decision to train AC's. I agree that I am probably clinging too much to my tank. My thought here is that once I get webbed (typically both warp and web) I lose my speed advantage. However in most engagements there have been so many people that I am too distracted to really look at velocity or transversal. I probably need to do more 1v1 to work on this. If I go Rifter is it best to fit it with an AB or a MWD? The MWD gives me total range control but if I get scrammed it is dead. On the Merlin I was running an AB and when scrammed I noticed that it shut off (course in the heat of a big battle it may have been I missed turning it on - but once webbed I could not get it to stay on. Help me with theAB/MWD. Asa far as tracking goes, that is a a Boig problem for me as my skills there are low (lots of missile skills that did not need tracking). I have been trying to fit a gyro and tracking enhancer on the PVE Rifter I have, but expect those slots would better used in PVP. Any thoughts on this aside from training up skills. Looks like the Rifter would help me in this as well. Thank you for all your help. No offense taken at all on your comments about my PVP knowledge. It sucks and I know it.
Nyarja	Posted - 2011.07.31 13:46:00 - [7] If you are trained for rockets, why don't you stick to Kestrel? It is very slow and has only average tank, but your rockets always hit and with t2 ammo you can take out even rifter very quickly. Try to get high orbit and you will be dealing much more damage than rifter will do to you. Fighting against blaster incursus will be easy and I guess you are still faster than armor plated punisher. Kestrel is definitely not a best t1 pvp frigate, but at least you can go with your skills.
illirdor Gallente Future Corps Sleeper Social Club	Posted - 2011.07.31 13:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Magnus Veyr - damage type selection helps with optimising your damage onto that specific target and it can make a HUGE difference. Projectiles are very effective at doing this while not losing any dps. Missiles can do this but you'll lose dps if your ship gets a bonus to specific types. Hybrids and Lasers can not change damage types so they have to hope that it's not too bad. Therefore not using hybrids or lasers puts you in control of your applied dps, thus helping you control the outcome of the fight. Yea but the thing about dmg selection is that you dont wanna change ammo in the middle of a fight so it can actualy be worse to only deal one type of dmg...
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.07.31 14:01:00 - [9] Yup, if you have good missile skills then a kestrel works just fine, either in standard missile fit with long range point or rockets and short range. The choice between AB or MWD is an eternal one and everyone has their own view on it. To me; AB to fight, mwd to run. So if you have short range weapons (ACs, rockets) then you fit an AB to keep your sig low and not waste all your cap. If your role is to be fast and stay at range (or tackle) then you fit MWD. Only exception to that are frigs that can actually do damage at range (like the kestrel). Here's a rocket one to give you an idea, this one needs good skills but at least you know what you should aim for. [Kestrel, PVP] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Medium Shield Extender II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I ___ Abriael VonRosen lost a crapfit hauler in Rancer, showing he has no clue on EVE and thus his words mean nothing.
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.07.31 14:03:00 - [10] Originally by: illirdor Originally by: Magnus Veyr - damage type selection helps with optimising your damage onto that specific target and it can make a HUGE difference. Projectiles are very effective at doing this while not losing any dps. Missiles can do this but you'll lose dps if your ship gets a bonus to specific types. Hybrids and Lasers can not change damage types so they have to hope that it's not too bad. Therefore not using hybrids or lasers puts you in control of your applied dps, thus helping you control the outcome of the fight. Yea but the thing about dmg selection is that you dont wanna change ammo in the middle of a fight so it can actualy be worse to only deal one type of dmg... At least you have a choice, besides you don't get "suddenly jumped" in pvp, unless there's no scouting going on so you should have time to adapt. ___ Abriael VonRosen lost a crapfit hauler in Rancer, showing he has no clue on EVE and thus his words mean nothing.
illirdor Gallente Future Corps Sleeper Social Club	Posted - 2011.07.31 14:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Magnus Veyr Originally by: illirdor Originally by: Magnus Veyr - damage type selection helps with optimising your damage onto that specific target and it can make a HUGE difference. Projectiles are very effective at doing this while not losing any dps. Missiles can do this but you'll lose dps if your ship gets a bonus to specific types. Hybrids and Lasers can not change damage types so they have to hope that it's not too bad. Therefore not using hybrids or lasers puts you in control of your applied dps, thus helping you control the outcome of the fight. Yea but the thing about dmg selection is that you dont wanna change ammo in the middle of a fight so it can actualy be worse to only deal one type of dmg... At least you have a choice, besides you don't get "suddenly jumped" in pvp, unless there's no scouting going on so you should have time to adapt. Well you still dont know how the resist of the person you are fighting :)
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.07.31 14:10:00 - [12] No but all ships and strategies have their optimal fits. Knowing those gives you, on average, a good chance to have it right. ___ Abriael VonRosen lost a crapfit hauler in Rancer, showing he has no clue on EVE and thus his words mean nothing.
illirdor Gallente Future Corps Sleeper Social Club	Posted - 2011.07.31 14:10:00 - [13] Originally by: Magnus Veyr No but all ships and strategies have their optimal fits. Knowing those gives you, on average, a good chance to have it right. True ;) I saw a guy wearing a t-shirt that said "I'm with stupid" ... He was alone.
Nyarja	Posted - 2011.07.31 14:12:00 - [14] Edited by: Nyarja on 31/07/2011 14:17:08 Edited by: Nyarja on 31/07/2011 14:13:35 Originally by: Magnus Veyr [Kestrel, PVP] Yes, depends on personal preference. I like longer point to orbit behind the optimal of blasters and autocannons. Although it works only if they are not fitted with web (rare). I had also a lot of fun with rifter killing punisher: [Punisher, New Setup 1] Damage Control II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Gyrostabilizer II 1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, EMP S Small Energy Neutralizer II Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I It worked realy great. + damage output same as rifter (with rep/plate/dc in lows) + great tank with solid resists (50% minimum on armor) + autocannons - adaptive damage type/no cap needs + big capacitor - you will neut all t1 frigs and still keep enough energy to run AB/scram - kestrel and every kiting frig will kill you - no web - slow (850m/s with t2 AB), but most of rifters will be out of cap (cannot escape) before they realize what is going on I was never beaten 1 on 1 by a rifter with this fit.
Delucian	Posted - 2011.07.31 14:37:00 - [15] Thanks so much for all the input. All very useful I have tried the kessy, and died horribly My skills take this crappy jump from T2 rockets to T2 heavies and cruise missiles (too much PVE). I had typically tried to kite but found that I could not dictate range in the Kessy or the Merlin, so I switched to tanking at an average of about 10km. This put me in scram range soiswitched to trying to learn how to fight at close range, upgraded my skills to run the Vengeance and did better, but still ended up blowing up a lot of pretty expensive T2 and T2 fit ships. Soooo, went back to looking at T1 frigs that I could lose a lot of till my skills improved (been in on a few kills, but no personal kill mail yet). Hence this thread. I am more comfortable kiting, but that is tough to do without skills and standard missiles and arty fits hit hard but have such slow cycle tomes that I find I pop befor I get more than a few volleys off. Part of my problem is that, it seems, that the fight typically goes (all things being relatively equal) to the person either best trained or the person who can manage all that happens in a brief Frig fight the best/quickest. I suspect that I am trying to fit a ship to alleviate two other shortcomings.
Delucian	Posted - 2011.07.31 14:43:00 - [16] Nyarja - like that fit. Will give it a try. Looks like a nice compliment to my Vengeance. Think I am going to try this Punisher fit and a one of the Rifter fits and see which one suits me best. The nice thing about RvB is thatyoucan test the dog out of fitsand not worry about getting podded.
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.07.31 22:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Delucian it seems, that the fight typically goes (all things being relatively equal) to ~~the person either best trained or~~ the person who can manage all that happens in a brief Frig fight the best/quickest. PVP is about experience and having an understanding of fits, game mechanics and the scenario. Neither of those come automatically with SP. Practise, practise, read, learn, watch pvp movies, fight on sisi, ask your corp members, learn, fight some more. PVP experience comes from putting in effort and as many ppl can't be bothered you'll be able to beat them regardless of the SP difference.
Delucian	Posted - 2011.08.01 00:00:00 - [18] Mangus - very true sir. I am seeing that I spent too much time doing only PVE. Now that I am doing more of it I am learning. Y'all's help is invaluable. I have been testing the two fits I got here and they work much better than my old fit. I can almost hold my own. With a bit more practice I should be good. My thanks and gratitude.
grumpyguts1	Posted - 2011.08.01 00:27:00 - [19] Some fits I have used and enjoyed. I did find using the mwd in fleets worked better to get into range as a punisher is pretty slow on a good day. [Punisher, AB] 200mm AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 200mm AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 200mm AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I_2 Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters_2 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I_2 Adaptive Nano Plating II_2 Gyrostabilizer II_2 Gyrostabilizer II_2 Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I_2 Small Trimark Armor Pump I_2 Small Trimark Armor Pump I_2 [Punisher, MWD] 150mm Light AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I_2 Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters_2 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I_2 Gyrostabilizer II_2 Adaptive Nano Plating II_2 Gyrostabilizer II_2 Small Trimark Armor Pump I_2 Small Trimark Armor Pump I_2 Small Trimark Armor Pump I_2 [Punisher, Solo] 150mm Light AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II_2, Republic Fleet EMP S Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters_2 J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I_2 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I_2 Damage Control II_2 Gyrostabilizer II_2 Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer_2 Small Trimark Armor Pump I_2 Small Projectile Burst Aerator I_2 Small Trimark Armor Pump I_2
Headerman Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2011.08.01 02:21:00 - [20] Does it have to be a gunship? Why not a Vigil tackler? Extremely fast, some guns to get on KM's and a few mids for a MWD, point and web
SureShot001	Posted - 2011.08.02 21:41:00 - [21] Kessie all the way, High-4 Rocket, Mid- MSE/Web/Scram, Low- BCU/PDU. Crazy DPS and if you want you can drop the Web for a AB but to fit it you need to put a APC in for the PDU.
Captain Nares	Posted - 2011.08.02 23:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Delucian Thoughts? Have rocket skills -> AC/Laser Merlin. Have no rocket skills -> AC Rifter.

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