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Why are renters classed as 3rd class?

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Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 11:49:00 - [1] Hi all, I am fortunate to have found a pretty good alliance to rent from (Legion of xXDeathXx) the people are interesting and pretty much treat you with respect, all in all our renting experience as a small corp has been great. But in the past, being a pvp grunt in some larger alliances especially western alliances the attitude towards renters stunk, I have no affiliation to the russian political in game wars but after alot of investigation and experience they were the only people I could even consider taking my friends to. My past experience I saw alot of unused systems where a small corp of 10-20 people could flourish but the alliance in the area had no real interest in filling that void. So why such a bad rap for renters ? We provide money for your war machine (I was renting two systems in Kavella = 805m per week yes that was alot and mainly due to wanting to try sov ect we pay alot less now), intel on the system maybe even if you are lucky people wanting to come join your pvp wars. I understand we did not "fight and die" to gain that system but after the fighting is over what then ?
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.08.09 11:59:00 - [2] Renters are seen as weak players, to many EVE is about carving out your own destiny by making friends&enemies and to advance through your actions. It's not very difficult to be welcomed into 0.0 while not being a renter, you have to be semi-capable and be able to interact with others a bit while having a spine and some dignity. Therefore people who choose to rent instead of being an active, contributing part are seen as non-effort zero-knowledge morons who aren't worth your attention.
Louis deGuerre Gallente Malevolence. Imperial 0rder	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:02:00 - [3] 3rd class ? In your dreams.
Kijo Rikki Caldari Point of No Return Waterboard	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:11:00 - [4] Renters generally do not have to put anything but money into any war effort, some don't even have to defend their own space. Other alliances that put ships on the line to win territory may hold a little animosity towards renters, especially those alliances who had initial agreements to gain certain systems for their efforts in a war, and when the fighting was over, the space they were to gain was instead given to a renter alliance.
Lady Spank Amarr In Praise Of Shadows	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:16:00 - [5] Well, without going into too much detail... Renters are generally incompetent scrubs that think they have done all they need to do by paying their rent each week/month. They are generally a liability in fleet ops. If you can even get them organised enough to fleet up they likely will bring absolutely godawful ships and fits and slow the gang down. Further they often make easy victims to roaming PVP gangs so the more renters you have, the more your region gets visited by skirmish gangs. A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ ~~~ Screenshot batch compression
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:36:00 - [6] As one that is currently in a renter alliance/corp I must say that many of the post by folks about renters has been although with some substance is mostly unfair, incorrect and for the most part misinformed. I dont know about most other renter corps, but I do know for a fact. That WE Rookie Empire will always defend our own space. We know we are "renters" and have made the efforts to improve our relations in 0.0 as well as showing the "neighborhood" that we arent afraid to pvp. We love to PVP and are in HED-GP everyday. So HED-GP 0.0 not real PVP now? It's funny, alot of you vets who have the tons of isk and have been in so many wars and battles. Most of you.. ARE HI-SEC carebare. Wardecing Hi-sec games. Who gives a **** about that.. The real grit is in 0.0.. REAL 0.0, not NPC controlled 0.0 cause you might as well be a renter then too. Since you would've done nothing to get the sovirenty(sp). So even as a 0.0 renter, in my opinion and from the general consensus on Hi-sec,low-sec compared to null.. All that time in Hi-sec playing station games and being concorded with suicide ganks.. Whack, come to 0.0 where you are declaring your PVP outright.. instead of hiding behind CCP concord and your knowledge of in-game mechanics to protect yourselves while you "pvp" lol... Until you posters are in 0.0 and not hi-sec/low-sec concord, station gaming. You let us 0.0 renters know and we'll be sure to get some crappy fits for you to get easy killmails with.. hmmmkay..?
Thornat	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:39:00 - [7] Edited by: Thornat on 09/08/2011 12:39:52 Edited by: Thornat on 09/08/2011 12:39:10 Originally by: Lady Spank Well, without going into too much detail... Renters are generally incompetent scrubs that think they have done all they need to do by paying their rent each week/month. They are generally a liability in fleet ops. If you can even get them organised enough to fleet up they likely will bring absolutely godawful ships and fits and slow the gang down. Further they often make easy victims to roaming PVP gangs so the more renters you have, the more your region gets visited by skirmish gangs. A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ Not that I disagree with you, because I don't nescessarly, but just to play devils advocate here. If you pay for a service and an agreement is constructed, isn't everyone obligated (assuming their is any such thing as honor in the game) to meet that obligation. I mean as an alliance if you accept renters, you accept the burden that they bring on the systems you control, ****ting on them after the fact or suddenly demanding fleet formation or other such nonsense that was not agreed upon turns renting from a legitimate thing into the territory of a typical Eve scam. I think what he is saying, or how he would answer your question is .. yes ... thats exactly what it means. We paid, now leave us alone.. its what we paid for.
Kijo Rikki Caldari Point of No Return Waterboard	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala ...stuff... What do YOU mean, 'You people'?
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala As one that is currently in a renter alliance/corp I must say that many of the post by folks about renters has been although with some substance is mostly unfair, incorrect and for the most part misinformed. I dont know about most other renter corps, but I do know for a fact. That WE Rookie Empire will always defend our own space. We know we are "renters" and have made the efforts to improve our relations in 0.0 as well as showing the "neighborhood" that we arent afraid to pvp. We love to PVP and are in HED-GP everyday. So HED-GP 0.0 not real PVP now? It's funny, alot of you vets who have the tons of isk and have been in so many wars and battles. Most of you.. ARE HI-SEC carebare. Wardecing Hi-sec games. Who gives a **** about that.. The real grit is in 0.0.. REAL 0.0, not NPC controlled 0.0 cause you might as well be a renter then too. Since you would've done nothing to get the sovirenty(sp). So even as a 0.0 renter, in my opinion and from the general consensus on Hi-sec,low-sec compared to null.. All that time in Hi-sec playing station games and being concorded with suicide ganks.. Whack, come to 0.0 where you are declaring your PVP outright.. instead of hiding behind CCP concord and your knowledge of in-game mechanics to protect yourselves while you "pvp" lol... Until you posters are in 0.0 and not hi-sec/low-sec concord, station gaming. You let us 0.0 renters know and we'll be sure to get some crappy fits for you to get easy killmails with.. hmmmkay..?
Amsterdam Conversations	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:50:00 - [10] Do like 90% of sov PVP corps, recruit two PVPers and an FC, have the other 100 players filled with carebears, then join a sov PVP alliance.

Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 12:58:00 - [11] Edited by: Morbidusk Yotosala on 09/08/2011 12:58:49 Originally by: Magnus Veyr Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala As one that is currently in a renter alliance/corp I must say that many of the post by folks about renters has been although with some substance is mostly unfair, incorrect and for the most part misinformed. I dont know about most other renter corps, but I do know for a fact. That WE Rookie Empire will always defend our own space. We know we are "renters" and have made the efforts to improve our relations in 0.0 as well as showing the "neighborhood" that we arent afraid to pvp. We love to PVP and are in HED-GP everyday. So HED-GP 0.0 not real PVP now? It's funny, alot of you vets who have the tons of isk and have been in so many wars and battles. Most of you.. ARE HI-SEC carebare. Wardecing Hi-sec games. Who gives a **** about that.. The real grit is in 0.0.. REAL 0.0, not NPC controlled 0.0 cause you might as well be a renter then too. Since you would've done nothing to get the sovirenty(sp). So even as a 0.0 renter, in my opinion and from the general consensus on Hi-sec,low-sec compared to null.. All that time in Hi-sec playing station games and being concorded with suicide ganks.. Whack, come to 0.0 where you are declaring your PVP outright.. instead of hiding behind CCP concord and your knowledge of in-game mechanics to protect yourselves while you "pvp" lol... Until you posters are in 0.0 and not hi-sec/low-sec concord, station gaming. You let us 0.0 renters know and we'll be sure to get some crappy fits for you to get easy killmails with.. hmmmkay..? Thanks for linking the killboard of my main money maker and not that of my PvP alt.. EPIC fail carebare... EPIC fail..
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:04:00 - [12] You will probably not get many serious answers in this forum. But I'll try to answer, from the perspective of neither a renter nor a renting alliance. As you said, renters can be a rich source of ISK for the renting alliance. However the relationship usually ends at that: you are little more than a machine which spits out X bilion per month. There is no incentive for either side to develop any deeper relationships, as, generally, people pay for the systems because they don't have the power to hold them. Therefore they wouldn't be useful to the renting alliance in battle anyway. You will be always treated as second class by other alliances however, simply for the fact that you aren't able to hold your own, and your alliance wouldn't exist in 0.0 were it not for the renting alliance. This is something you will have to live with... In my opinion, if the renting alliance treats their renters badly, they are likely to lose a significant source of ISK sooner or later. ---
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:10:00 - [13] Edited by: Magnus Veyr on 09/08/2011 13:17:37 Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala Thanks for linking the killboard of my main money maker and not that of my PvP alt.. EPIC fail carebare... EPIC fail.. No one who has a clue fits that ******ed, not even on a throwaway alt. Oh sweet jezus!. Look, there's nothing wrong with being new to the game, that in and of itself isn't a crime at all. But don't come here then with a big mouth about how special you are, because you'll just look an idiot. In fact, crap fits like that is how ppl end up in renter alliances.
Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:29:00 - [14] I think colouring all renters with the same brush does a great diservice. I personally believe my little corp is worth more than alot of corps I have seen out there with 100+ members. 11 active players all except 1 I have known for 8+ years, all except 1 new to eve but with a past history of playing/coding muds (precursor to modern mmo's). All of them willing to drop there pve ship and get into a pvp ship at a moments notice (I have a little pvp knowledge myself both in Quebber and my now sold char Rho Legate) pretty much every corp joined I managed to get into the top 5 on the kill boards, so teaching them all the basics is fun. Not much to kill around where we are atm (I won't undock the fleet against 17-20 enemies atleast not until I have schooled my friends on the finer points of wolfpacks and hit/run sniping)but that is okay it gives a breathing time for me to make sure everyone is up to par. It is a pity because anyone who knows me from the last couple of years pvp will know the idea of 10 people new to eve that I have taught to work together as a team and shared my crazy knowledge of tactics, special ops and pvp would be fun to have around. I just refuse to be in anyone elses corp except my own even with our small size :)
Metal Icarus Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:34:00 - [15] Originally by: Magnus Veyr No one who has a clue fits that *****ed, not even on a throwaway alt. [Faction fail]Oh sweet jezus! Look, there's nothing wrong with being new to the game, that in and of itself isn't a crime at all. But don't come here then with a big mouth about how special you are, because you'll just look an idiot. In fact, crap fits like that is how ppl end up in renter alliances. Tries to search up Magnus up on battleclinic* I'd pick on one of your losses but... "No match found" post with something that has a killboard, you arguement will have more weight. also, vouching for Morbids pvp alt,he has one (not me)
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Abdiel Kavash You will probably not get many serious answers in this forum. But I'll try to answer, from the perspective of neither a renter nor a renting alliance. As you said, renters can be a rich source of ISK for the renting alliance. However the relationship usually ends at that: you are little more than a machine which spits out X bilion per month. There is no incentive for either side to develop any deeper relationships, as, generally, people pay for the systems because they don't have the power to hold them. Therefore they wouldn't be useful to the renting alliance in battle anyway. You will be always treated as second class by other alliances however, simply for the fact that you aren't able to hold your own, and your alliance wouldn't exist in 0.0 were it not for the renting alliance. This is something you will have to live with... In my opinion, if the renting alliance treats their renters badly, they are likely to lose a significant source of ISK sooner or later. THIS.. ALSO: Obviously Magnus now has a hard on for me, and has begun to post deaths from nearly 3months ago on a 4mo toon but the fact remains. Not ALL renters fit into what the stero-typical thought process you percieve renters to have. We are RENTERS for reasons obvious to most. We have enough ambition not to be some hi-sec carebare thigy, or some gank-get-killed-by-concord-for-lolz entity.. BUT we don't particularly have the NUMBERS or KNOWLEDGE to hold our own SOV without constant conflict. So what do we do.. RENT.. At the same time don't think since you get mAdz Kielz in hi-sec that you are leet and know how to hold SOV, the same for low. Simply put that ** is NOT, I repeat NOT actual PVP.. it is PVP per game-mechanics and FW and all that good stuff, but be honest with yourselves.You are killing ships, knowing damn well your **s going to get blown up.. You are pussin-out before the fight even begins. Cowardice! and in some alliances damn near desertion. Lol..In fact if you hold NO 0.0 what so whatever. Why are you even posting things about this? LOL. We got our piece of 0.0 How bout you? You should know exactly what renters are there for.. To make money and and give you isky to let them while you just perhaps would realize to watch their backs to a certain extent while their doing so. Why? Because more than likely you are making a good sum of those renters. In the billions and high billions for those renter corps that don't at least TRY to put some effort in to defend systems. Aren't renter systems technically part of your own network of systems? so why wouldn't you defend to some degree..
RAW23	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Lady Spank A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ Isn't this exactly what they are paying for? Or does it vary from alliance to alliance? I had always understood it as a pur business relationship as the name implies but do some alliances have expectations of their renters beyond just rent?
Alissa Solette	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:54:00 - [18] The reason why most people "look down" on renters is because most renters are massive carebears that only migrated to 0.0 to earn ISK. They are usually not interested in PVP (even when it comes to defending their home - that's why they're renters after all) nor any other form of serious player interaction/team work. Of course this is a huge generalization. I'm sure there are many renters that are way better at PVP then many alliance people (especially alliances like NC with 33'000 members of which 32'900 are/were full time carebears themselves). But in general renters are at the shallow end of the "0.0 elite" pool and thus they are not respected as full members in their own rights (which makes sense to some degree - they're paying some entity to do most of the "work" for them after all).
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:58:00 - [19] Edited by: Morbidusk Yotosala on 09/08/2011 14:04:14 Edited by: Morbidusk Yotosala on 09/08/2011 14:02:15 Originally by: Alissa Solette The reason why most people "look down" on renters is because most renters are massive carebears that only migrated to 0.0 to earn ISK. They are usually not interested in PVP (even when it comes to defending their home - that's why they're renters after all) nor any other form of serious player interaction/team work. Of course this is a huge generalization. I'm sure there are many renters that are way better at PVP then many alliance people (especially alliances like NC with 33'000 members of which 32'900 are/were full time carebears themselves). But in general renters are at the shallow end of the "0.0 elite" pool and thus they are not respected as full members in their own rights (which makes sense to some degree - they're paying some entity to do most of the "work" for them after all). THIS ONE.. And I'm now feeling complete... for now.. :) ... You'd be kind of surprised how it works to a renters benefit most times. "Appearing" weak with the perception that your corp has no knowledge of PvP. Self-preservation I think it applies somewhat to this game model with SOV. systems. Renters have this quality also. Which lends to them assiting in MASS pvp operations. Even if its just cannon-fodder.
Miss Rabblt	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:06:00 - [20] from what i heard from western world you only get respect there if you are black refugee from Africa, gay or other kind of a "special person". seriously i was feeling the same as OP when i was in corp inside IT alliance. Main fear was "they can move as to renters division so take your ships and go to CTA!!!" Have no ideas why it is. Hovewer i was never feeling bad about leaving that alliance few weeks before they lost space i was living in. What goes around comes around.

Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Alissa Solette The reason why most people "look down" on renters is because most renters are massive carebears that only migrated to 0.0 to earn ISK. They are usually not interested in PVP (even when it comes to defending their home - that's why they're renters after all) nor any other form of serious player interaction/team work. Of course this is a huge generalization. I'm sure there are many renters that are way better at PVP then many alliance people (especially alliances like NC with 33'000 members of which 32'900 are/were full time carebears themselves). But in general renters are at the shallow end of the "0.0 elite" pool and thus they are not respected as full members in their own rights (which makes sense to some degree - they're paying some entity to do most of the "work" for them after all). I understand that, I have been in alliances for pvp sov warfare etc for about 2 years in my multiple characters, became jaded and needed a break (if you check my boards http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Rho+Legate until november last year and http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Quebber until about 3 months ago) You will see I have most definetly paid my dues in 0.0 but being both opinionated :) and blessed with a little common sense I decided to back to my roots and addict some friends to EVE. Wanted to ease them into 0.0, a rented system in drone regions with the amount of mineral worth allowed for us to build up a huge stock of ships/items, not risk free but seen as my friends are only 2 months into the game max it was fun to try out sov and build some deathstars and indie pos. we are most definetly going to be concentrating more on pvp now. But I have only taken them out on a few practice roams and gate camps (pickings are rather slim up here unless you want to tangle with a large group).
Taedrin Gallente Zero Percent Tax Haven	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:12:00 - [22] Originally by: RAW23 Originally by: Lady Spank A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ Isn't this exactly what they are paying for? Or does it vary from alliance to alliance? I had always understood it as a pur business relationship as the name implies but do some alliances have expectations of their renters beyond just rent? It varies from alliance to alliance, and from renter to renter. Some renters just want to PvE in peace. Other renters want to PvE, but also want to learn how to PvP too. However, renters are given a bad rep because they tend to be incompetent, regardless if they try to PvP or not. ---------- Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident" Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
Maziy	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:13:00 - [23] Are you: A. Having fun? B. Making ISK? C. Capitalizing on growing your corp while paying for use of a system or systems while also not having to worry entirely too much on the defense of said system(s)? Good, you're doing it right. Are you: A. Really concerned with what anyone in this spaceship video game thinks about you while you're enjoying yourself? B. Even bothering to read/internalize the replies to a very weak and overly concerned image issue of a post? C. Serious? If so, you're doing it wrong, and should promptly buy monocles and boots to boost your e-esteem. You should also require all corp members to be monocled up as well. This might offset the horrible tragedy of an existence as a renter/3rd rate citizen who enjoys all of the benefits of zerosec with almost no liability. Just terrible.
Simetraz	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:18:00 - [24] Now that you have seen the extended reasons let me give you the short version. PvP'rs hate industrial's and ratters. If you are not PvPing you are a waste of space. That is not my personal opinion but it is the opinion of a good 80% of 0.0 Now you know.
Alissa Solette	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Quebber we are most definetly going to be concentrating more on pvp now. But I have only taken them out on a few practice roams and gate camps (pickings are rather slim up here unless you want to tangle with a large group). IMHO this is exactly how a renter corp can evolve to become more then your average renters corp. I think renters mainly have such a "bad name" because people generally only remember their bad experiences with renters. If you're on the way to a CTA and fly past 5 ratting renters then you can be sure that these 5 dudes will make a much bigger impression then the other 15 renters that were in the CTA fleet themselves, fighting for their home. It's the same as with foreigners in real life - you don't even notice the 50k immigrants that always pay their taxes and act normally... it's the 500 morons that make the bad impressions (and thereby cast the other 99% in a bad light as well). I think anyone who's opinion is worth anything will not categorically dismiss all renters as "useless carebears" - especially if the renter corp is showing that they can also pull their weight to a certain degree and are not just there for the quick $$$ (like you're doing it by running fleets etc.). I also started out in a renter corp when I first ventured out into 0.0. And I'm also not ashamed to admit that I mainly moved because I wanted to earn ISK faster/easier. Thankfully the renter corp I joined was very interested in team work and group activities so it was actually a great way to get "a foot in the door" as it were. Later we joined an alliance as full members (thanks to our fairly decent killboard stats and thanks to being noticed) and from there we were in a good position to work our way up the ranks. So don't give up and don't take too much **** from your (Russian) "overlords". Just because most renter corps suck doesn't mean they all do. It's also a good training for your newer members to build up a "thicker skin" (which they can surely use well for their later EVE life).
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:42:00 - [26] Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala At the same time don't think since you get mAdz Kielz in hi-sec that you are leet and know how to hold SOV, the same for low. Simply put that ** is NOT, I repeat NOT actual PVP.. it is PVP per game-mechanics and FW and all that good stuff, but be honest with yourselves.You are killing ships, knowing damn well your **s going to get blown up.. You are pussin-out before the fight even begins. Cowardice! and in some alliances damn near desertion. Lol..In fact if you hold NO 0.0 what so whatever. Why are you even posting things about this? LOL. We got our piece of 0.0 How bout you? Where do you get the impression that I PVP in high sec? I'd really like to know that one. And even if; hiding in a fleet following orders isn't exactly mad pvp either. Still, lets go back to your atrocious fittings, because that obviously shows you really don't have a clue. My kills being absent is easily explained by me being a posting alt (guess why that is), but better no recorded losses as crap fit ones while leeching onto kills with 0-2% damage. You talk a lot but the facts show a different story.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:45:00 - [27] Originally by: Magnus Veyr Where do you get the impression that I PVP in high sec? I'd really like to know that one. And even if; hiding in a fleet following orders isn't exactly mad pvp either. Still, lets go back to your atrocious fittings, because that obviously shows you really don't have a clue. My kills being absent is easily explained by me being a posting alt (guess why that is), but better no recorded losses as crap fit ones while leeching onto kills with 0-2% damage. You talk a lot but the facts show a different story. Where do you get the impression that fitting whatever battleclinic/your corp/alliance tells you to is mad pvp? ---
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.08.09 14:53:00 - [28] Edited by: Magnus Veyr on 09/08/2011 14:55:11 Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Originally by: Magnus Veyr Where do you get the impression that I PVP in high sec? I'd really like to know that one. And even if; hiding in a fleet following orders isn't exactly mad pvp either. Still, lets go back to your atrocious fittings, because that obviously shows you really don't have a clue. My kills being absent is easily explained by me being a posting alt (guess why that is), but better no recorded losses as crap fit ones while leeching onto kills with 0-2% damage. You talk a lot but the facts show a different story. Where do you get the impression that fitting whatever battleclinic/your corp/alliance tells you to is mad pvp? Fits are an easy way to tell if the pilot had at least an understanding of combat in EVE (or at the very least was capable of listening to his FC and bring the right ship). No more and no less. So if someone loses a Daredevil with a faction cap recharger and web, a long range point but a small neut, an unnamed T1 armor rep and no speedmod then you just know he's not on the ball when it comes to fittings and pvp and should probably not boast too much about his pvp prowess. I'm sure you realise the logic in that one.
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:12:00 - [29] Edited by: Morbidusk Yotosala on 09/08/2011 15:17:29 Originally by: Magnus Veyr Edited by: Magnus Veyr on 09/08/2011 14:55:11 Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Originally by: Magnus Veyr Where do you get the impression that I PVP in high sec? I'd really like to know that one. And even if; hiding in a fleet following orders isn't exactly mad pvp either. Still, lets go back to your atrocious fittings, because that obviously shows you really don't have a clue. My kills being absent is easily explained by me being a posting alt (guess why that is), but better no recorded losses as crap fit ones while leeching onto kills with 0-2% damage. You talk a lot but the facts show a different story. Where do you get the impression that fitting whatever battleclinic/your corp/alliance tells you to is mad pvp? Fits are an easy way to tell if the pilot had at least an understanding of combat in EVE (or at the very least was capable of listening to his FC and bring the right ship). No more and no less. So if someone loses a Daredevil with a faction cap recharger and web, a long range point but a small neut, an unnamed T1 armor rep and no speedmod then you just know he's not on the ball when it comes to fittings and pvp and should probably not boast too much about his pvp prowess. I'm sure you realise the logic in that one. Magnus you're being silly now.. I've stated that is my money making alt. He rarely does any PVP. My PVP alt. I fly more so than Morbid since I only need to fly him to make money really. Secondly, I lost that Daredevil. I think the fit was decent, considering I paid nothing for the mods and got them off drops. in my nice 0.0 paid system that I get some protection for as well as get to defend along with surrounding "blue" systems when I feel(all the time). AmIrite? I could tell you about that fight, and my DD actually was the reason that he didnt get away per my (web bonus + plus faction = not bad right?) and we got the kill I believe. Old death more than 90 days. That's big gap of time between to gain some knowledge eh? Not important. You however sir, have nothing to prove. At least I've shown I operate in 0.0 and have shed some blood for the cause. Well I didn't show, you needlessly went to Battleclinic for fits when we were talking about Renters being 3rd class citizens if you don't remember or even bother to acknowledge as the topic of the thread. If you don't like Renters don't deal with them, if you even have 0.0 Sov.. Lol.. Can't rent out your one lonely system now can you. If you're fotunate enough to have more "competent" and capable renters more power to you. If not, their renters. There's not much to expect from them except a flashy flashy on rent-day. I'd love to know where you hold Sov, Mag. Right now, you just seem to be a carebare, or NPC/Drone space null'er..
Lord Wiggin Gallente Furian Necromongers	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:16:00 - [30] Renters don't even register. Bottom line is, renters as a whole are useless to the average SOV holder. The can't help defend, usually attract gangs due to their lack of experience and they have no sense of humor. If you don't like being a renter, learn to fight and join a real alliance. This space reserved...

Metal Icarus Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:18:00 - [31] Originally by: Magnus Veyr My kills being absent is easily explained by me being a posting alt (guess why that is) So many reasons... In the end though you are making fun of a loss 1 month into his eve career and you wont make any mention of your own killboard. So please PVP master, enlighten us with your glorious kills and justify making fun of a 1 month old char, fail-fit death to a very experienced PVP alliance. I think he is talking about the differnece of living in high sec (living with the high sp predators who declare war on low SP chars) and living in 0.0 and how anyone who wants to fight doesn't have any game mechanics to hide behind. There are no: Neut reppers Station games Concord There are: Bubbles Sure logistics is harder but in the end, there is more security as anyone who wants to fight, has to fight everyone. (Moar kills if you're good enough..) In the end, renting is fun if you participate and make the most of the expeirence by pvp'ing.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:19:00 - [32] Edited by: Abrazzar on 09/08/2011 15:19:25 Renters are still better treated than industrial people. At least you are allowed the off-chance for some profits, try that in a alliance as manufacturer and you'll be branded a traitor. --------
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala Magnus you're being silly now.. I've stated that is my money making alt. He rarely does any PVP. My PVP alt. I fly more so than Morbid since I only need to fly him to make money really. Secondly, I lost that Daredevil. I think the fit was decent, considering I paid nothing for the mods and got them off drops. in my nice 0.0 paid system that I get some protection for as well as get to defend along with surrounding "blue" systems when I feel(all the time). AmIrite? The fact that it's your pve alt or not is here nor there, you don't suddenly lose your fitting knowledge just because you switch character so you reasoning makes no sense. And the notion that your DD was actually decent fit shows exactly that; you don't really have a clue. Mind you, I'm not "bashing" you for ** fitting, any new players is going to fit atrociously bad, we all did in the beginning and is just to be expected. However, fitting and then boasting about how fantastic you are and how others must be "carebears" and "silly high sec pvpers or ppl who live in NPC", that is why I'm replying to this in the manner that I do. Fact is that you have no real clue, fact is that you live in a renter alliance. Neither of those is particularly bad for a new player**, but you bark way more than you bite. You spout a lot of words backed by evidence that shows you really shouldn't. Thus you get bored feks like me to reply to you.
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:36:00 - [34] Edited by: Morbidusk Yotosala on 09/08/2011 15:42:56 Originally by: Magnus Veyr Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala Magnus you're being silly now.. I've stated that is my money making alt. He rarely does any PVP. My PVP alt. I fly more so than Morbid since I only need to fly him to make money really. Secondly, I lost that Daredevil. I think the fit was decent, considering I paid nothing for the mods and got them off drops. in my nice 0.0 paid system that I get some protection for as well as get to defend along with surrounding "blue" systems when I feel(all the time). AmIrite? The fact that it's your pve alt or not is here nor there, you don't suddenly lose your fitting knowledge just because you switch character so you reasoning makes no sense. And the notion that your DD was actually decent fit shows exactly that; you don't really have a clue. Mind you, I'm not "bashing" you for ** fitting, any new players is going to fit atrociously bad, we all did in the beginning and is just to be expected. However, fitting and then boasting about how fantastic you are and how others must be "carebears" and "silly high sec pvpers or ppl who live in NPC", that is why I'm replying to this in the manner that I do. Fact is that you have no real clue, fact is that you live in a renter alliance. Neither of those is particularly bad for a new player**, but you bark way more than you bite. You spout a lot of words backed by evidence that shows you really shouldn't. Thus you get bored feks like me to reply to you. You're KB plz or just hush.. My fitting has nothing to do with holding SOV, renting SOV, or having the balls to be in Null-sec and not concord-sec. You're getting angry because I pulled your carebare card. It's okay, living in null makes most renters have little respect for hi-sec.. Renters surprisingly feel more like citizens than hi-sec.. You arent even welcome.. I'm sittin in HED-GP right now with a bunch of other no-blue intels as RENTER. Actively making efforts to defend his SOV against oncoming forces. You.. How's that incusrion going?
Generals4 Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala You're KB plz or just hush.. My fitting has nothing to do with holding SOV, renting SOV, or having the balls to be in Null-sec and not concord-sec. You're getting angry because I pulled your carebare card. It's okay, living in null makes most renters have little respect for hi-sec.. Renters surprisingly feel more like citizens than hi-sec.. You arent even welcome.. What's so special about nullsec than? Been there, nothing that special apart from huge blobs and bubbles. I learned more about PVP in the militia than i did in null.
Magnus Veyr	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:49:00 - [36] Edited by: Magnus Veyr on 09/08/2011 15:52:39 Originally by: Morbidusk Yotosala You're KB plz or just hush.. My fitting has nothing to do with holding SOV, renting SOV, or having the balls to be in Null-sec and not concord-sec. You're getting angry because I pulled your carebare card. It's okay, living in null makes most renters have little respect for hi-sec.. Renters surprisingly feel more like citizens than hi-sec.. You arent even welcome.. I'm sittin in HED-GP right now with a bunch of other no-blue intels as RENTER. Actively making efforts to defend his SOV against oncoming forces. You.. How's that incusrion going? I would classify you as a troll, but then I look at your losses and get the idea you really are that bad. It's amusing really. At least your corpie has a decent understanding on how to fit ships. Notice how I don't "bash" him for his hookbill losses, it's not the losses that count for much or even a positive K:D (as if that matters), it's having an understanding of what you're doing. And you show that you have no clue while hiding in a group of players, leeching onto kills with 2% damage and boasting about how badass you are (you're not). Originally by: Generals4 What's so special about nullsec than? Been there, nothing that special apart from huge blobs and bubbles. I learned more about PVP in the militia than i did in null. That's the crux really, being in blobs flying what you're told to fly and fitting how you're told to fit (or even messing that one up) doesn't exactly count as PVP, it just counts as "doing what you're being told to do". Actual understanding of the pvp basics comes from being solo or in a small group, mind you; fleet PVP is fun at times and requires a different skillset (especially as FC)but the majority of 0.0 blobbers are the same cattle that grind missions or mine in hulks.
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 15:57:00 - [37] Notice how you still refer to a "money" alt and not an actual PVP toon who would have proper KB fittings, kills, loses, damage done/taken, isk lost/taken all that stuff that your hinting to as proper knowledge of holding 0.0 Sov. Yes my Corp/Ally know fittings and such and learn more everyday. You're doing what debaters like to call.. "Reaching" basically, you've got no actual facts or non-biases backed experiences in null or with renters to really contribute to the thread. I'm still in HED-GP on my PVP, if you'd like I can jump into Keberz right quick so you can wardec meh..?
Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 16:26:00 - [38] What a fun topic this turned out to be, it does seem to be an emotional subject for alot of people. I remember myself being on CTA's and going through systems with ratters who were blue and never in the fleet. See we are abit of a wierd corp :P We don't rat/mission or plex for isk we do it because well erm we actually like blowing npc's up. The corp/ships/ammo/shiny is funded by other means including GTC's meaning we are not limited to the isk per hour lifestyle of most renters. Honestly we rent because we wanted to put up a large pos, stick loads of guns/missiles/webs/damps and chickens outside of it then call it a fun name (also being from a pvp background I much prefer logging off in a pos than in a station). We put up an Ihub and did the sov thing because it looked fun! We onlined the guns and shot each other with them because it seemed a fun idea as did buying a years worth of pos fuels and working out the logistics of getting it to our home in 0.0 (in hindsight that part did not turn out to be fun). And pvp is most definetly fun, as anyone who knew me when I took out my moros for a pos bash(surround sound to max, graphics to full and listen to the prrty prrty blasters firing as I watch the lightshow), that can be fun too and yes I never put anything other than guristas ammo in my dreadnought (some people won't launch a dred without faction modules me I won't fire anything but faction ammo with it) When I joined a new corp it was perfectly normal for me to bring 50+ of every module I would ever need and 50+ ships so that once I started to pvp I did not haveto stop, to me that was commiting to the corp I was joining. Maybe I am crazy but as anyone will tell you having isk does not mean you succeed in eve especial in pvp, I just prefer to spend my time in eve doing what I want to do :)
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 16:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Quebber What a fun topic this turned out to be, it does seem to be an emotional subject for alot of people. I remember myself being on CTA's and going through systems with ratters who were blue and never in the fleet. See we are abit of a wierd corp :P We don't rat/mission or plex for isk we do it because well erm we actually like blowing npc's up. The corp/ships/ammo/shiny is funded by other means including GTC's meaning we are not limited to the isk per hour lifestyle of most renters. Honestly we rent because we wanted to put up a large pos, stick loads of guns/missiles/webs/damps and chickens outside of it then call it a fun name (also being from a pvp background I much prefer logging off in a pos than in a station). We put up an Ihub and did the sov thing because it looked fun! We onlined the guns and shot each other with them because it seemed a fun idea as did buying a years worth of pos fuels and working out the logistics of getting it to our home in 0.0 (in hindsight that part did not turn out to be fun). And pvp is most definetly fun, as anyone who knew me when I took out my moros for a pos bash(surround sound to max, graphics to full and listen to the prrty prrty blasters firing as I watch the lightshow), that can be fun too and yes I never put anything other than guristas ammo in my dreadnought (some people won't launch a dred without faction modules me I won't fire anything but faction ammo with it) When I joined a new corp it was perfectly normal for me to bring 50+ of every module I would ever need and 50+ ships so that once I started to pvp I did not haveto stop, to me that was commiting to the corp I was joining. Maybe I am crazy but as anyone will tell you having isk does not mean you succeed in eve especial in pvp, I just prefer to spend my time in eve doing what I want to do :) Great post needs to be in the "Misconceptions of EVE" topic as well..
Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 16:41:00 - [40] Something quite amusing happened a couple of weeks ago, I was teaching the members about decloaking on a gate, you know all the normal tactics, we have two members who really love small ship skirmish/scout so I am going through a gate in a hound to give them a challenge, we did it about 10 times and all was going smoothly. Remember these people are new to eve but after abit they got it down to being able to decloak me pretty well, a couple of other members came in and asigned there drones to the decloakers.. Well after a successful decloak I turn to head back to the gate to give them another try and see the "such and such is warp scrambling you" no problem I think to myself and then I remember the drones, 15 drones insta pop my poor little hound, I just couldn't stop laughing.

Kumq uat Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2011.08.09 16:46:00 - [41] Morbidusk Yotosala. You would be known in the trade as a loot pinata. --------------------------------------- www.eve-pirate.com original author
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 17:12:00 - [42] Originally by: Kumq uat Morbidusk Yotosala. You would be known in the trade as a loot pinata. I prefer bait..
JC Ferguson Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2011.08.09 18:49:00 - [43] Renters are lame because they pay to be someone else's ***** in an Internet Spaceships game. In doing so, they reduce the quality of gameplay for everybody else. Of course, the same can be said for big alliance peons. Signature locked for trolling and inappropriate content. Zymurgist
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.08.09 18:55:00 - [44] Because from my own experience, it's renters that whine about AFK cloakers. Originally by: CCP Zulu Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience.
Kumq uat Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2011.08.09 19:08:00 - [45] Anyways, for serials, the main reason space holding alliances look down their noses on renters is because of the attitudes of the renters themselves. From most of my experience, and I am not saying every renter is like this, but the majority seem to think that because they pay x amount of isk to rent this space that it should be as safe as high sec. They end up losing some ships to roaming gangs because they were not actually paying attention to local or the intel channels and then start the ear piercings whines associated with carebears the world over. They seem to think that their isk means that the alliance they are paying it to be their indentured servants who will sit in belt with a combat fleet to protect their poor little retrievers despite the fact the rental agreement explicitly states that while the alliance will do their best to defend against incursions it is overall up to the renters themselves to be smart and not treat this little patch of 0.0 as secure space and to be smart. That is why most alliance really don't like renters. --------------------------------------- www.eve-pirate.com original author
Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 20:03:00 - [46] We luv cloakies http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13989633
Morbidusk Yotosala	Posted - 2011.08.09 20:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Kumq uat Anyways, for serials, the main reason space holding alliances look down their noses on renters is because of the attitudes of the renters themselves. From most of my experience, and I am not saying every renter is like this, but the majority seem to think that because they pay x amount of isk to rent this space that it should be as safe as high sec. They end up losing some ships to roaming gangs because they were not actually paying attention to local or the intel channels and then start the ear piercings whines associated with carebears the world over. They seem to think that their isk means that the alliance they are paying it to be their indentured servants who will sit in belt with a combat fleet to protect their poor little retrievers despite the fact the rental agreement explicitly states that while the alliance will do their best to defend against incursions it is overall up to the renters themselves to be smart and not treat this little patch of 0.0 as secure space and to be smart. That is why most alliance really don't like renters. Some of the things you are listing seem more like newbie mistakes more so than renter mistakes. Why would we move to 0.0 for it to feel like hi-sec? LoL.. That just cancels out the whole reason an "average" renter would move out of hi-sec. AFK campers are newb worries, it sucks but most know if they dont have probes and you at least burn out of your site (if applicaple) you should be fine. When paying for a system 9 times out 10 its going to come with some type of "renters agreement".. Just like IRL.. Your landlord has to provide you with certain ammenaties. In this case it would be strong arming, those that would come in to SERIOUSLY strong arm the renter. Why? They are renting from you for a reason, you knew that when you agreed to let the put up theat TCU.. So don't ***** when they come to you asking for some favors. It'd be stupid for you as a "spacelord" to not anticipate your renters possibly needing a hand now and again. BUT since in most cases a renters system is actually part of your Alliances networks. Why would not be inclined to protect them to some extent and in some fashion. Higher end systems that are rented out would maybe recieve more help if need be compared to a back-end system. It's funny seeing so many upset at a entity of 0.0 that makes them so much iskies for basically doing nothing in the system. I can't imagine any renter corp really asking for help like that on any regular basis anyhow. Projection of forces on a mass scale in renter system would more than likely be a waste anyways. I'm starting to think that more people are upset at the fact that if someone did come to take your systems. The only ones remaining when it was all said it done.. Would be your renters, renting from the new SOV.. LoL.. I'm j/k, don't get QQ'y.. Hi-lo-wardec-care-vets-spacelords of EVE.. Your renters appreciate the work you put into gaining the system and letting us rat and stuff and you know all that good stuff.. and I'm sure you guys appreciate the fresh billions every month.. lol
Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 20:54:00 - [48] Our landlords are treating us pretty good and for that alone we will defend this system, deal and adapt for aslong as we rent. We give intel and I personally because of my past love of spec ops training in games (Miss AO Division 9 s.o) i keep a nice long list of every =/- that comes near our system building up a profile. But I am really proud of our members, not many kills yet but even when I am not on if a =/- comes in system they are back to pos and in a pvp ship :).
Acrior	Posted - 2011.08.09 21:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Quebber (Miss AO Division 9 s.o) anarchy online? **** dawg, we need a fistbump right here right now
Tuggboat Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.09 21:41:00 - [50] Renting is a scam, Keeping renters in their place is part of it.

Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 21:52:00 - [51] Originally by: Acrior Originally by: Quebber (Miss AO Division 9 s.o) anarchy online? **** dawg, we need a fistbump right here right now Damn right! so many nights sitting around the grid terminal.
Aus Man Industries	Posted - 2011.08.09 21:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Lady Spank Well, without going into too much detail... Renters are generally incompetent scrubs that think they have done all they need to do by paying their rent each week/month. They are generally a liability in fleet ops. If you can even get them organised enough to fleet up they likely will bring absolutely godawful ships and fits and slow the gang down. Further they often make easy victims to roaming PVP gangs so the more renters you have, the more your region gets visited by skirmish gangs. A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ This about says it. You don't help when the allaince needs it! you increase the reward for hostiles in system you want us to protect you.
Acrior	Posted - 2011.08.09 21:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Quebber Originally by: Acrior Originally by: Quebber (Miss AO Division 9 s.o) anarchy online? **** dawg, we need a fistbump right here right now Damn right! so many nights sitting around the grid terminal. Game's still going man but I tagged out that temple of trainwrecks man, damn straight. twinking characters all day long.
Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.09 22:29:00 - [54] Originally by: Aus Man Industries This about says it. You don't help when the allaince needs it! you increase the reward for hostiles in system you want us to protect you. Only for some. We would jump at the sound of a CTA or defence fleet! We deal with hostiles in our system (enemies to kill without leaving system) We defend ourselves a little help is nice but we don't want a "free" ride. So to me that is the simple difference between a renter that brings more to an alliance than just money and the stereotypical renter which may or may not truly exist.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.08.09 22:39:00 - [55] Originally by: Lady Spank A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ Renters should think that. they are paying RENT. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Sweet Trader Minmatar The Hollow Men	Posted - 2011.08.09 22:45:00 - [56] Originally by: Quebber Hi all, I am fortunate to have found a pretty good alliance to rent from (Legion of xXDeathXx) the people are interesting and pretty much treat you with respect, all in all our renting experience as a small corp has been great. But in the past, being a pvp grunt in some larger alliances especially western alliances the attitude towards renters stunk, I have no affiliation to the russian political in game wars but after alot of investigation and experience they were the only people I could even consider taking my friends to. My past experience I saw alot of unused systems where a small corp of 10-20 people could flourish but the alliance in the area had no real interest in filling that void. So why such a bad rap for renters ? We provide money for your war machine (I was renting two systems in Kavella = 805m per week yes that was alot and mainly due to wanting to try sov ect we pay alot less now), intel on the system maybe even if you are lucky people wanting to come join your pvp wars. I understand we did not "fight and die" to gain that system but after the fighting is over what then ? What does Marcellus Wallace look like?
Acrior	Posted - 2011.08.09 22:57:00 - [57] Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Lady Spank A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ Renters should think that. they are paying RENT. Ok get this. Scenario: I rent an apartment as a student in America (actually European but w/e). The Brits come to settle the whole civil war thing. They wreck my apartment. Who do you think the landlord is gonna be ****ed at. Hint: not the redcoats.
Generals4 Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.09 22:59:00 - [58] Edited by: Generals4 on 09/08/2011 23:00:11 Edited by: Generals4 on 09/08/2011 23:00:01 Originally by: Aus Man Industries Originally by: Lady Spank Well, without going into too much detail... Renters are generally incompetent scrubs that think they have done all they need to do by paying their rent each week/month. They are generally a liability in fleet ops. If you can even get them organised enough to fleet up they likely will bring absolutely godawful ships and fits and slow the gang down. Further they often make easy victims to roaming PVP gangs so the more renters you have, the more your region gets visited by skirmish gangs. A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ This about says it. You don't help when the allaince needs it! you increase the reward for hostiles in system you want us to protect you. Than don't rent your space. I mean if you rent your space knowing they're scrubs and than complain about you're pretty much a scrub yourself. If those who own the space want renters to defend their space than just add that as condition on top of the payments. Otherwise it's your own damn fault. I mean it's like complaining someone bought an item from you for the price you asked and didn't ask you if it would be ok if he'd pay more....
Acrior	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:00:00 - [59] Originally by: Generals4 Originally by: Aus Man Industries Originally by: Lady Spank Well, without going into too much detail... Renters are generally incompetent scrubs that think they have done all they need to do by paying their rent each week/month. They are generally a liability in fleet ops. If you can even get them organised enough to fleet up they likely will bring absolutely godawful ships and fits and slow the gang down. Further they often make easy victims to roaming PVP gangs so the more renters you have, the more your region gets visited by skirmish gangs. A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ This about says it. You don't help when the allaince needs it! you increase the reward for hostiles in system you want us to protect you. Than don't rent your space. I mean if you rent your space knowing they're scrubs and than complain about you're pretty much a scrub yourself. If those who own the space want renters to defend their space than just add that as condition on top of the payments. Otherwise it's your own damn fault. I mean it's like complaining someone bought an item for you for the price you asked and did ask you if it would be ok if he'd pay more.... the whole point was that renters are treated as third (if even that) class citizens which is true because they don't do much for the alliance
Generals4 Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:10:00 - [60] Edited by: Generals4 on 09/08/2011 23:10:00 Originally by: Acrior Originally by: Generals4 Originally by: Aus Man Industries Originally by: Lady Spank Well, without going into too much detail... Renters are generally incompetent scrubs that think they have done all they need to do by paying their rent each week/month. They are generally a liability in fleet ops. If you can even get them organised enough to fleet up they likely will bring absolutely godawful ships and fits and slow the gang down. Further they often make easy victims to roaming PVP gangs so the more renters you have, the more your region gets visited by skirmish gangs. A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ This about says it. You don't help when the allaince needs it! you increase the reward for hostiles in system you want us to protect you. Than don't rent your space. I mean if you rent your space knowing they're scrubs and than complain about you're pretty much a scrub yourself. If those who own the space want renters to defend their space than just add that as condition on top of the payments. Otherwise it's your own damn fault. I mean it's like complaining someone bought an item for you for the price you asked and did ask you if it would be ok if he'd pay more.... the whole point was that renters are treated as third (if even that) class citizens which is true because they don't do much for the alliance That doesn't make them third class citizens. It makes them good EVE players. Doing what they want and what they're supposed to. Why should someone force himself, against his will, to do things not even demanded from him for the service provided to him? I didn't know in EVE you had to do charity to be a 1st class citizen.

Acrior	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:17:00 - [61] Originally by: Generals4 That doesn't make them third class citizens. It makes them good EVE players. Doing what they want and what they're supposed to. Why should someone force himself, against his will, to do things not even demanded from him for the service provided to him? I didn't know in EVE you had to do charity to be a 1st class citizen. I didn't say it wasn't smart. Just that the ALLIANCE treats THEM as third-class citizens because they don't mean much to the ALLIANCE.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:19:00 - [62] Originally by: Acrior Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Lady Spank A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ Renters should think that. they are paying RENT. Ok get this. Scenario: I rent an apartment as a student in America (actually European but w/e). The Brits come to settle the whole civil war thing. They wreck my apartment. Who do you think the landlord is gonna be **ed at. Hint: not the redcoats. Umm fail analogy. If youre renting space and someone comes and kills you - well of course you should have defended yourself. But if you are renting and the land lord comes up and says " all renters have to join my private army and go on patrols" - umm no, thats not what renting is about. Wherever you went - Here you are.**
Ranka Mei Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:26:00 - [63] Edited by: Ranka Mei on 09/08/2011 23:28:52 It's amazing again how much fail this thread contains! Do any of you even have basic understanding of economics? To find out, answer yourself the following questions. Are you a useless scrub for renting a car? Are you employed in a loser company because they, god forbid, rent office space? Is your CEO a moron because he hires security personnel? Are you a mindless dufus who can't hold his own because you occassionally rent that big lawn mower? ... Or, could it be that renting stuff, whether it be space, or security services, or POS time, or whatever, is no more than an acknowledgement of a most basic economic principle that single individuals aren't a Jack of trades at everything? You folks are most amusing, really. :) It's like watching a bunch of 12-year-olds tumbling over each other, each more eager than the other to show what a great, bad-ass PvP-er they are. Meanwhile flying around in ships someone else built, taking ammo from a rented corp hangar, etc. I mean, seriously, is it so difficult to grasp for you that not every small corp can match a big 0.0 Alliance in strength, and that they therefore will need to rent space from someone bigger who can hold Sovereignty for them? Or do you honestly suggest they just fly their puny ships right into a super Alliance supercap fleet, just to show 'em? So, it's very simple: as a small corp, if you want to have access to the yard where the big boys play, you either try and fight them in vain, or you simply rent whatever you need and have to offer (like juicy belt rats, mining spots). I see nothing wrong with that. It's like a foreign company who wants to do business at a prime spot in Manhattan: instead of fighting the USA over its location (which would be ludicrous, of course), they simply rent office space there -- at a premium price, no doubt. So what? -- "All your monies AUR belong to us." -- CCP
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:33:00 - [64] Originally by: Quebber Why are renters classed as 3rd class? Because to some if you don't play the way they play then you're doing it wrong. They'll call you a coward while they profess their bravery and toughness because they bring pixalated spaceships to pixelated battles. Meh, just ignore them. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Lady Spank Amarr In Praise Of Shadows	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:39:00 - [65] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Quebber Why are renters classed as 3rd class? Because to some if you don't play the way they play then you're doing it wrong. They'll call you a coward while they profess their bravery and toughness because they bring pixalated spaceships to pixelated battles. Meh, just ignore them. Coward alt poster talking about bravery. ~~~ Screenshot batch compression
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:43:00 - [66] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Quebber Why are renters classed as 3rd class? Because to some if you don't play the way they play then you're doing it wrong. They'll call you a coward while they profess their bravery and toughness because they bring pixalated spaceships to pixelated battles. Meh, just ignore them. Coward alt poster talking about bravery. He's also deathly afraid of afk cloakers. ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.09 23:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Quebber Why are renters classed as 3rd class? Because to some if you don't play the way they play then you're doing it wrong. They'll call you a coward while they profess their bravery and toughness because they bring pixalated spaceships to pixelated battles. Meh, just ignore them. Coward alt poster talking about bravery. My post flew right past you. Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
moskowitz Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.08.10 01:34:00 - [68] interesting post! I am a carebear mostly...I have been in 0.0 with limited pvp experience..I have never rented...I like to make and sell things. I always find it interesting how hardcore pvpers hate carebears. Why? if they are both doing what makes them enjoy the game experience...wth do pvpers feel superior to carebears? maybe so...they have better pvp skills....they do more of it. i am gathering renter to most 0.0=a carebear that lives in 0.0 i think it boils down to a superiority complex pvpers have over industrialists, traders, renters ...anyone that is not a hardcore pvper. i think if carebears wanted to take over a part of 0.0 they could do it. it would be funny to see large numbers of isk rich alts take over some of 0.0. sure they would probably struggle with poor pvp skills...but they are industrialists and traders...they can likely afford losses and have stacks of equipment and ships to keep it going. I would volunteer 2 alts (with unlimited supply of ships/ammo)to anyone that wants to engage in such an affair. and if anyone wants to collaborate in a long term commitment with the production of capital ships for support..I'd be down for that too. "UNite the carebears" prove we are average at PVP!!
Lady Spank Amarr In Praise Of Shadows	Posted - 2011.08.10 01:44:00 - [69] Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Lady Spank Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 Originally by: Quebber Why are renters classed as 3rd class? Because to some if you don't play the way they play then you're doing it wrong. They'll call you a coward while they profess their bravery and toughness because they bring pixalated spaceships to pixelated battles. Meh, just ignore them. Coward alt poster talking about bravery. My post flew right past you. Not really no. You continually try to antagonise people and act like a smartarse but are too scared to stand by your claims with any degree of accountability. An irrelevant coward alt is all you are. Why don't you biomass a second time just to prove how everyone else is oh so serious about internet space pixels and you aren't. GTFO ~~~ Screenshot batch compression
moskowitz Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.08.10 01:55:00 - [70] superiority complex comfirmed.

Thur Barbek	Posted - 2011.08.10 01:56:00 - [71] Originally by: moskowitz i think if carebears wanted to take over a part of 0.0 they could do it. it would be funny to see large numbers of isk rich alts take over some of 0.0. Hardcore pvpers always forget who enables them. If the local care bears who supply the market decided to quit, the pvpers would be pvping in noob ships. Easiest way to take control of a region is simply control the local market.
Valari Nala Zena Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.08.10 02:10:00 - [72] Originally by: Thur Barbek Originally by: moskowitz i think if carebears wanted to take over a part of 0.0 they could do it. it would be funny to see large numbers of isk rich alts take over some of 0.0. Hardcore pvpers always forget who enables them. If the local care bears who supply the market decided to quit, the pvpers would be pvping in noob ships. Easiest way to take control of a region is simply control the local market. In nullsec as a PvP'er you can live without industrials/carebears just fine. I've been living in a lot of places in nullsec, i never had to rely on the market at all, had my own capitals bring stuff back from empire when i needed something. PvP is all what matters if you want to own space/stations in nullsec, on a larger scale it's all about who has the biggest super capital blob.
moskowitz Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.08.10 02:30:00 - [73] Edited by: moskowitz on 10/08/2011 02:38:00 yea agree...i've lived there...we can't shutdown there play from hi sec. we need to be like "carebear locusts" with lots of supplies to make bigger supercap fleets. i have a dream. Who's with me?...we can call it carebearaggedon
Syberbolt8 Gallente Swallows And Amazons AAA Citizens	Posted - 2011.08.10 02:40:00 - [74] I am in a renter alliance, we are weak, and fail at pvp so we had to rent our way into 0.0. Check my killboard, I don't have any kills worth wild and am in fact a 0.0 carebear. On to the point of the renter alliance being useful in fleet battles, we are good meat shields as long as you treat us as such. Its all about expectations, if you expect a lot out of a bunch of renters your fail. If you realize renters don't really want to fight, or they only want to get their feet wet, then a renter alliance is a good place to start were as other alliances wont give them a chance in hell to join a major sov alliance. It can play a starting point. Not that it normally does, but hey, we pay them for our space and make in the range of 50 to 100 times what we are paying as a corp, so its win/win they get use of the space as its easy isk for them, and we get good space to abuse. Now are we joining up and fighting? some of our members are, but we wont be making a major difference. Are we 2nd class, sure, we don't have to support huge areas of space at all. We don't have to be 0.0 space diplomats, Just pay the bills and we are good to go. And if someone invades then we run away or stick around to see if we lose our space. That's part of renting. The Resurrection: Support the Revised Dead Horse Pos thread in Assembly Hall
Babyfarts Mcdougan	Posted - 2011.08.10 02:40:00 - [75] PvPer rage about carebears but most have at least one industry/mission alt to subsidize their fighting. Don't take it too seriously. That being said, if you're renting in null and don't join in on the occasional roam with neighboring corps, you're doing yourself a disservice, and not taking advantage of everything you're paying for with that rent. And if you are renting from a russian based alliance, you renters should be working towards your own protection, cuz they sure as hell ain't back ya up.
MatrixSkye Mk2 Minmatar	Posted - 2011.08.10 02:49:00 - [76] Originally by: Lady Spank Not really no. You continually try to antagonise people and act like a smartarse but are too scared to stand by your claims with any degree of accountability. An irrelevant coward alt is all you are. Why don't you biomass a second time just to prove how everyone else is oh so serious about internet space pixels and you aren't. GTFO You're right. I hear the marine corps won't recruit you if you post with an alt on the eve-o. ima... e-coward . Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today!
Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.10 16:21:00 - [77] I also agree that industrial's are badly done to and under appreciated in an alliance, when I left my old alliance there was one industrial who had already left, offered her a place in my corp. That one industrial/ratter has in the drone regions provided us with more t1 pvp ship/ammo/modules/rigs than I will hopefully ever loose :) I just provided a pos with assembly arrays, explained the simple idea that if we as a corp give all the ore/salvage to our indie person then she gives us free ships/modules/rigs/ammo for pew pew!! and even better if we insure these free ships we get free money!!
Nick Bete Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.08.10 16:29:00 - [78] Originally by: Lady Spank Well, without going into too much detail... Renters are generally incompetent scrubs that think they have done all they need to do by paying their rent each week/month. They are generally a liability in fleet ops. If you can even get them organised enough to fleet up they likely will bring absolutely godawful ships and fits and slow the gang down. Further they often make easy victims to roaming PVP gangs so the more renters you have, the more your region gets visited by skirmish gangs. A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ Nice attitude. This is the reason 70% of Eve lives in high sec and has no interest in ever leaving. Why deal with this kind of elitist BS mindset?
Miss Rabblt	Posted - 2011.08.10 17:22:00 - [79] Originally by: Aus Man Industries This about says it. You don't help when the allaince needs it! you increase the reward for hostiles in system you want us to protect you. 1. try to build supercapital fleet without renters (who will grind iskies? pro-pvpers???) 2. who will support pvp-wind with stuff and ships? And who will support your POSes and bridges with fuel? Want to buy it all in Jita? 3. who will track enemies around space of your alliance? Try to look around and not only to HUD of your ship
Quebber	Posted - 2011.08.10 22:16:00 - [80] When it comes down to it, this is all about having fun, there is only two things I love in 0.0 that we are missing out on atm, one is large fleet roams combat (even with the lag I loved it) and the other is CTA's with a semi competent FC you can have fun in cta's :)

Sharon Anne Caldari	Posted - 2011.08.11 00:08:00 - [81] Why are people who pay pad rent but own their own trailers always the butt of econ-jokes. Hmmm better folks need to know. *The general epidemic of rectal-cranial inversion*
Laser Purification	Posted - 2011.08.11 00:29:00 - [82] People look down on renters because they are: - militarily unimportant. There's no motivation for them to develop serious PvP muscle because the landlord is supposed to do that. - adds little to null-sec. They don't take, hold or lose space themselves. They're just the farm animals used to fill up empty space and sponsor their landlords. And the landlords don't even need to do much but sit back and enjoy the isk rolling in. They rarely have much of an alliance culture either. - Sign on to do a lot of Eve Pve which is probably the worst part of the game. Leading to a situation in which extreme boredom and high rents pretty much encourage bot empires.
Valentina Valentia Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.08.11 00:33:00 - [83] Originally by: Quebber Hi all, I am fortunate to have found a pretty good alliance to rent from (Legion of xXDeathXx) the people are interesting and pretty much treat you with respect, all in all our renting experience as a small corp has been great. But in the past, being a pvp grunt in some larger alliances especially western alliances the attitude towards renters stunk, I have no affiliation to the russian political in game wars but after alot of investigation and experience they were the only people I could even consider taking my friends to. My past experience I saw alot of unused systems where a small corp of 10-20 people could flourish but the alliance in the area had no real interest in filling that void. So why such a bad rap for renters ? We provide money for your war machine (I was renting two systems in Kavella = 805m per week yes that was alot and mainly due to wanting to try sov ect we pay alot less now), intel on the system maybe even if you are lucky people wanting to come join your pvp wars. I understand we did not "fight and die" to gain that system but after the fighting is over what then ? BEHAVE!!... un-monocled PEASANT!!!... down in your dung-hole and work!!! Slaps OP with a large fish to the head and calls his mother a hampster Renters are 4th CLASS! do not dare to elevate yourselves to the role of the PLEBS!... know your place. ______________ Effete Noir - a wonderful virtual cologne for the discerning Pod-Pilot - 4500 Aur - BUY.
Name Is Unavailable	Posted - 2011.08.11 02:11:00 - [84] this is eve...who DOESN'T get treated like they're third class?
Kogh Ayon	Posted - 2011.08.11 04:35:00 - [85] Edited by: Kogh Ayon on 11/08/2011 04:35:41 If the western alliances you mentioned think they don't need the money, why bother to go the east? You made the right choice, renters are great to fill the useless void while support our money to build super carriers. Just ignore those damb people, they will see the heaps of nyxes crash their skirmish fleets down, then whining that we are "botters".
Bustin Jieber	Posted - 2011.08.11 06:02:00 - [86] Originally by: Name Is Unavailable this is eve...who DOESN'T get treated like they're third class? Goons.
Haephestion	Posted - 2011.08.11 06:23:00 - [87] I think the disrespect comes from this simple issue; Many people can get what you get for free. If you have enough savvy and enough decent pvpers, you can join an actual alliance, carebear all you want, and pvp at the same time. the difference is that youve managed to strike a bargain that does not involve you getting on your knees and blowing a guy; rather, you shake hands, understanding that you are useful, that while small, you add to a whole. Renters do not add to a whole. The are that under-qualified * who attains a position higher than they deserve because they are currently **ing the boss.
CanIPost Please	Posted - 2011.08.11 10:24:00 - [88] "I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees." Renters would rather live on their knees . . . in a video game . . . and that is just disgusting.
Simplus Massive	Posted - 2011.08.11 10:44:00 - [89] Ask yourself why you care to worry about what class of EVE-citizen other gaming nerds want to box you into while also managing to make you believe it might all be true enough to be an actual fact. ------------------------------------------ simplus.rjctd.com ★ zaisen.rjctd.com
Zey Nadar Gallente Unknown Soldiers B O R G	Posted - 2011.08.11 10:53:00 - [90] Originally by: Simetraz Now that you have seen the extended reasons let me give you the short version. PvP'rs hate industrial's and ratters. If you are not PvPing you are a waste of space. That is not my personal opinion but it is the opinion of a good 80% of 0.0 Now you know. Yet those two things do not cancel each other out.

Aralyn Cormallen Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.08.11 11:37:00 - [91] Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Lady Spank A lot of renters think they are buying the right to PVE in peace with a personal army on hand to squish any threats and will become petulant when asked to do anything else because ~ WE HAVE PAID OUR MONEY NOW LEAVE US ALONE ~ Renters should think that. they are paying RENT. No their not, lets be honest here - their paying protection. Thats what renters are doing, they are paying someone else to avoid that someone else burning them out of the spot they want to claim. Then usually have the audacity to claim the the big guy they are paying off should also protect them against all the other big guys. Tough luck ladies, either pony up the cash to both sides if you want to keep your head down, or put some time into defending the space. To be honest though, that isn't really the real problem with renters. The problem is that the proliferation of weak-willed individuals willing to rent facilitates the larger organisations to take space for renting. Its a vicious cycle; small alliances can't forge their own small hole for themselves in nullsec because the larger organisations know they can take the space and then rent it out to a lesser group who will pay. If there was noone willing to pay, it would be foolish of the large organisations to grab more space than they can feasibily use themselves (before the costs of space outstrip the benefits of owning it), then pockets of space would open up for the smaller entities to fight each other over. So in essence, the weaker-willed 'renter' organisations are stifling and killing the more ambitious smaller alliances, who are forced to either go to NPC null or surrender to the inevitable and rent themselves, and degrading nullsec space by their existance.
CanIPost Please	Posted - 2011.08.11 13:59:00 - [92] Originally by: Aralyn Cormallen To be honest though, that isn't really the real problem with renters. The problem is that the proliferation of weak-willed individuals willing to rent facilitates the larger organisations to take space for renting. Its a vicious cycle; small alliances can't forge their own small hole for themselves in nullsec because the larger organisations know they can take the space and then rent it out to a lesser group who will pay. If there was noone willing to pay, it would be foolish of the large organisations to grab more space than they can feasibily use themselves (before the costs of space outstrip the benefits of owning it), then pockets of space would open up for the smaller entities to fight each other over. So in essence, the weaker-willed 'renter' organisations are stifling and killing the more ambitious smaller alliances, who are forced to either go to NPC null or surrender to the inevitable and rent themselves, and degrading nullsec space by their existance. Yep.
White Tree	Posted - 2011.08.11 14:04:00 - [93] Originally by: Quebber Hi all, I am fortunate to have found a pretty good alliance to rent from (Legion of xXDeathXx) I lold. _______________________________________ Follow me on Twitter!


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