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May Tai	Posted - 2011.08.09 11:56:00 - [1] hi alright, what is ccp planing to do with dreads. i mean, these kind a cap ships are the weakest caps in eve. every other capital ship got a stacking. stacking? let me explain. carrier - big logistic 5 carrier - more reps - usefull in medscale bs fights - look at rooks and kings and or all these drf fleets. supercarrier - massive damage against structures like sbus - tcus - stations or other caps. more supercarrier - more damage - shorter killtimes for teritorial structures. titans - doomsday - more doomsday - overkill - bridges - massive damage against structures - instapops a carrier or a dread. 5 titans instapop a super and now we got the dread.... what can i do with a dread? jeah right shooting poses sbus or stations but thats it. actually its possible to out track a sieged dread with a mom. the tracking penalty is just anoying. and now the siege.... if youre sieged your **ed - you cant be supported by carriers - youre like a sitting duck in a fight and you can¦t do ** - you can hit a bs like you should . in a revelation or moros class dread you can¦t even shoot, because you need your cap to tank the dmg. in my opinion it should be possible to support sieged dreads. dread fleet with triagecarriers should be possible and remove the tracking penalty or atleast enhance the tracking penalty. sorry for my bad english, but i think its understandable.
MeBiatch	Posted - 2011.08.09 13:54:00 - [2] Edited by: MeBiatch on 09/08/2011 13:53:48 hopefully they do this with them
Telvani Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber	Posted - 2011.08.09 16:36:00 - [3] Originally by: MeBiatch Edited by: MeBiatch on 09/08/2011 13:53:48 hopefully they do this with them Yay we currently have capital ships without a role, so lets add another, I'm sure that'll fix it! Black ops are a bit too niche at the moment, lets add a T3 ship thats the same but has an extra turret slot! No one uses EAS so lets add a T2 destroyer that has e-war bonuses, then suddenly they'll both be useful! Stupid troll 2/10
MeBiatch	Posted - 2011.08.09 18:53:00 - [4] Originally by: Telvani Originally by: MeBiatch Edited by: MeBiatch on 09/08/2011 13:53:48 hopefully they do this with them Yay we currently have capital ships without a role, so lets add another, I'm sure that'll fix it! Black ops are a bit too niche at the moment, lets add a T3 ship thats the same but has an extra turret slot! No one uses EAS so lets add a T2 destroyer that has e-war bonuses, then suddenly they'll both be useful! Stupid troll 2/10 your a stupid troll yeah j@ckass! 1/10 1st off dreads are meant to shoot structures... something that they excel at in worm hole space... but FB do a better job at it in regualr space... just nerf FB so they cant hit structers and presto dreads have thier niche back... but juggers are meant to be counter to super cap ships... its a good idea and is a niche that is missing ingame right now... Black ops are like the phophecy... origionally designed as a BS but would much be better suited for tier II bc's.... imagine a tech II cane that gets a 25% speed boost! if you want to give BO a new role make them heavy bombers... capable of pumping out citadel torps and using heavy bombs (basically a bomb with extreamly low explosion velocity) as for eas yeah they are sad sad ships... amy ideas on how to make them better maybe a hp boost?
NoNah	Posted - 2011.08.09 18:54:00 - [5] Tenfold dread dps, make them unable to jump, dock or refit for 23 hours from when they leave a siege cycle, add a 24 hour aggression timer upon entering siege.(You are however allowed to eject) Give SBUs and TCU's bubbles, rendering moms useless for it. Oh, and give poses an interdiction array. Basically means you have 3 choices to take over a system. #1 Deploy battleships which is costly in manpower, takes time to deploy and retract, takes time to kill the structures, somewhat vulnerable. #2 Deploy dreads which is cheap in isk, cheap i manpower, quick to deploy but HEAVILY commited to the fight and in dire need of support - or just throwaway hardware. #3 Deploy titans which are expensive in isk, relatively cheap in manpower, quick to deploy and quick to retract. Do I expect to ever see it? No, but it would make things entertaining even if it'd need quite a bit of more polishing. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 982540
NoNah	Posted - 2011.08.09 19:00:00 - [6] Originally by: MeBiatch 1st off dreads are meant to shoot structures... something that they excel at in worm hole space... but FB do a better job at it in regualr space... just nerf FB so they cant hit structers and presto dreads have thier niche back... Except, FB can't shoot pos towers as is, so there's really no difference between W and K space in that regard. Quote: but juggers are meant to be counter to super cap ships... its a good idea and is a niche that is missing ingame right now... If moms can't shoot any structures, wouldn't this more or less be their sole purpose then? Quote: Black ops are like the phophecy... origionally designed as a BS but would much be better suited for tier II bc's.... imagine a tech II cane that gets a 25% speed boost! I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Maybe my english is to poor, care to rephrase it in simpler words? Quote: if you want to give BO a new role make them heavy bombers... capable of pumping out citadel torps and using heavy bombs (basically a bomb with extreamly low explosion velocity) This would render them terrible, unless they made insane amounts of dps in which case they'd be really useful at killing... supercaps and structures. You really don't like supercaps and structures, do you? =) As for the EAS, most of really just need a sig radius and velocity adjustment, some of them need a lil tweak in terms of roles such as the kitsune. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 598989
MeBiatch	Posted - 2011.08.09 19:18:00 - [7] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: MeBiatch 1st off dreads are meant to shoot structures... something that they excel at in worm hole space... but FB do a better job at it in regualr space... just nerf FB so they cant hit structers and presto dreads have thier niche back... Except, FB can't shoot pos towers as is, so there's really no difference between W and K space in that regard. Quote: but juggers are meant to be counter to super cap ships... its a good idea and is a niche that is missing ingame right now... If moms can't shoot any structures, wouldn't this more or less be their sole purpose then? Quote: Black ops are like the phophecy... origionally designed as a BS but would much be better suited for tier II bc's.... imagine a tech II cane that gets a 25% speed boost! I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Maybe my english is to poor, care to rephrase it in simpler words? Quote: if you want to give BO a new role make them heavy bombers... capable of pumping out citadel torps and using heavy bombs (basically a bomb with extreamly low explosion velocity) This would render them terrible, unless they made insane amounts of dps in which case they'd be really useful at killing... supercaps and structures. You really don't like supercaps and structures, do you? =) As for the EAS, most of really just need a sig radius and velocity adjustment, some of them need a lil tweak in terms of roles such as the kitsune. I have to say i like that idea about putting ihubs in a shield so fighters/FB cant shoot them... maybe move the ihub to inside of the pos? mom/sc are anti regular caps... if you make juggers ewar cap ships(cap nuets/nos webbers) this would be a nice counter to super caps... Umm look at the discription of the Tier I Ammar BC... It was originally made to be the size of a BS but was turned into a BC... What i am trying to say is the role of BO would be better on a BC hull.. hence the 5% speed boost taken from the panther and put on a tech II cane... no all supercaps must die... but yeah i am looking at 2-2.5 dps out of these things... but keep inmind they are useless against sub caps... which is a good thing... as for eas i will take your word for it as i dont fly them...
NoNah	Posted - 2011.08.09 19:37:00 - [8] Originally by: MeBiatch I have to say i like that idea about putting ihubs in a shield so fighters/FB cant shoot them... maybe move the ihub to inside of the pos? That would mean they can't be shot until the pos is down, but then still be shot by FB. It's basically just another reinforcement timer, no change in suitable ships. Quote: mom/sc are anti regular caps... if you make juggers ewar cap ships(cap nuets/nos webbers) this would be a nice counter to super caps... Given how supercap fights look today, being able to web a mom won't make that much of a difference. It's either dead in a minute from a massive hotdrop, or charged with a subcap fleet. Neuts would make it effective versus subcaps and regular caps however where it would probably drain a subcap in a volley. I don't remember the details of your suggestion right now, but if it's not in siege I don't really ever see people fitting guns to them, let alone siege modules. Quote: Umm look at the discription of the Tier I Ammar BC... It was originally made to be the size of a BS but was turned into a BC... What i am trying to say is the role of BO would be better on a BC hull.. hence the 5% speed boost taken from the panther and put on a tech II cane... Then you'd have a larger vaga. Yes, it would be very effective but I don't see how it would fit the role of black ops any better than what we have today. The problem with black ops being under used I fear is more of a cultural issue than the size of the ship. Getting in, getting out, isn't the issue, nor is the actual engagement it's really more about the little use in doing it that way. Quote: no all supercaps must die... but yeah i am looking at 2-2.5 dps out of these things... but keep inmind they are useless against sub caps... which is a good thing... as for eas i will take your word for it as i dont fly them... 2-2.5 dps sounds terribly low. If they have webs and neuts, how can they be useless to subcaps(without redesigning the entire mechanic of those two)? As for the damage output part of them, they look like nothing but commited moms, which brings us back to the original issue of the dreads. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 827392
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat	Posted - 2011.08.09 19:59:00 - [9] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: MeBiatch 1st off dreads are meant to shoot structures... something that they excel at in worm hole space... but FB do a better job at it in regualr space... just nerf FB so they cant hit structers and presto dreads have thier niche back... Except, FB can't shoot pos towers as is, so there's really no difference between W and K space in that regard. Incorrect. Fighters cannot hit a control tower, but Fighter Bombers can.
MeBiatch	Posted - 2011.08.09 20:30:00 - [10] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: MeBiatch I have to say i like that idea about putting ihubs in a shield so fighters/FB cant shoot them... maybe move the ihub to inside of the pos? That would mean they can't be shot until the pos is down, but then still be shot by FB. It's basically just another reinforcement timer, no change in suitable ships. Quote: mom/sc are anti regular caps... if you make juggers ewar cap ships(cap nuets/nos webbers) this would be a nice counter to super caps... Given how supercap fights look today, being able to web a mom won't make that much of a difference. It's either dead in a minute from a massive hotdrop, or charged with a subcap fleet. Neuts would make it effective versus subcaps and regular caps however where it would probably drain a subcap in a volley. I don't remember the details of your suggestion right now, but if it's not in siege I don't really ever see people fitting guns to them, let alone siege modules. Quote: Umm look at the discription of the Tier I Ammar BC... It was originally made to be the size of a BS but was turned into a BC... What i am trying to say is the role of BO would be better on a BC hull.. hence the 5% speed boost taken from the panther and put on a tech II cane... Then you'd have a larger vaga. Yes, it would be very effective but I don't see how it would fit the role of black ops any better than what we have today. The problem with black ops being under used I fear is more of a cultural issue than the size of the ship. Getting in, getting out, isn't the issue, nor is the actual engagement it's really more about the little use in doing it that way. Quote: no all supercaps must die... but yeah i am looking at 2-2.5 dps out of these things... but keep inmind they are useless against sub caps... which is a good thing... as for eas i will take your word for it as i dont fly them... 2-2.5 dps sounds terribly low. If they have webs and neuts, how can they be useless to subcaps(without redesigning the entire mechanic of those two)? As for the damage output part of them, they look like nothing but commited moms, which brings us back to the original issue of the dreads. ok well thats why i origionally said just make it so ihubs and such cant be hit by fb... that fixes that... webbing the mom is so the dread can hit it when you are in siege mode right now the sc can lol speed tank the dread... yeah the cap ewar mods would only work when in siege mode and would be useless against sub caps... yes you would have a larger vega... before the last speed nerf BO were better becuase Bs's wernt as gimped... but now that bs turn slow and are slow in general (other then minnie ones) moving the BO role to BC would mitigate this... as you said its cultural and what the point in dropping a billion isk ship when its not that effective as a tactic but dropping a half billion isk ship that works better for the role (bc's) would IMO be what BO need to be used more often... I know i would jump in a myrm that gets agility bonus and 5 heavy drones... you are correct if the ship is sitting still it would still do damage against sub caps... and 2.5k dps is pretty nice if you think about it... if you have 20 of these on the field you are doing 50k dps... that would rock for high sec/worm hole pos bashing... plus would help sub caps do damage to cap ships... i mean whats the average long range bs doing dps wise in a pos bash? 600-700 dps?

Mfume Apocal Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.08.09 22:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Fighters cannot hit a control tower, but Fighter Bombers can. I'm about 85% sure they can only hit a small tower, because the torps won't reach larger towers.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat	Posted - 2011.08.10 00:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 10/08/2011 00:28:04 Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 10/08/2011 00:24:25 Originally by: Mfume Apocal Originally by: Tau Cabalander Fighters cannot hit a control tower, but Fighter Bombers can. I'm about 85% sure they can only hit a small tower. You might change your mind if you look at some nulsec large tower kill-mails. Random Google hit #1 Random Google hit #2 (Raiden.)
NoNah	Posted - 2011.08.10 00:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Tau Cabalander Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 10/08/2011 00:28:04 Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 10/08/2011 00:24:25 Originally by: Mfume Apocal Originally by: Tau Cabalander Fighters cannot hit a control tower, but Fighter Bombers can. I'm about 85% sure they can only hit a small tower. You might change your mind if you look at some nulsec large tower kill-mails. Random Google hit #1 Random Google hit #2 (Raiden.) I'm suprised by the vast amount of supercarriers using sentries to kill every single pos tower where the forcefield was up. Random Raiden. example #1 #2 #3 No idea who the other killboard are, however the very killmail you linked shows carriers using fighters, meaning the forcefield was most likely down. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 135929
Jack Tronic	Posted - 2011.08.10 01:24:00 - [14] You should see wspace, its a whole another world. Dreads and carriers are dropped freely, because there are no supers like the good old days.
Psycho Amarr	Posted - 2011.08.10 13:13:00 - [15] as I said in another thead before.. do not boost dreads just boost the siege module! -give a resistance bonus when in siege -> 50 or 75 % even -or change the damage bonus if needed this will increase EHP and tank when in siege and when out of siege the dread will loose his bonus and die fast
freshspree Caldari Dissonance Corp	Posted - 2011.08.10 13:29:00 - [16] Edited by: freshspree on 10/08/2011 13:29:28 Dreads are as OP as it gets and if anything should be nerfed for their performance/cost, it should be dreads and remember that supers were made to own dreads so what's the problem again?.
Mysteriax The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.08.10 13:58:00 - [17] Originally by: freshspree Edited by: freshspree on 10/08/2011 13:29:28 Dreads are as OP as it gets and if anything should be nerfed for their performance/cost, it should be dreads and remember that supers were made to own dreads so what's the problem again?. 1 That Nothing can kill supercaps besides more supercaps. 2 POS shooting is no longer important in 0.0 Sov warfare. 3 Dreads can not GTFO against supercarriers since they have a 10 min siege timer. (like supercarriers can)
raukosen	Posted - 2011.08.10 16:50:00 - [18] Dreads are now for w-space Just accept it
Tanith YarnDemon	Posted - 2011.08.10 16:58:00 - [19] Originally by: raukosen Dreads are now for w-space Just accept it They're also very good Jita-protesters.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2011.08.11 07:14:00 - [20] Siege is obsolete. Super Carriers don't need to do anything like seige. Titans are useful before they start firing doomsdays. Carriers are valuable before they go into triage. In fact pantheon carriers don't triage because they spidertank. Dreadnoughts are totally useless outside of seige mode. CCP needs to get rid of it, or make it an optional strategy.

freshspree Caldari Dissonance Corp	Posted - 2011.08.11 14:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Mysteriax Originally by: freshspree Edited by: freshspree on 10/08/2011 13:29:28 Dreads are as OP as it gets and if anything should be nerfed for their performance/cost, it should be dreads and remember that supers were made to own dreads so what's the problem again?. 1 That Nothing can kill supercaps besides more supercaps. 2 POS shooting is no longer important in 0.0 Sov warfare. 3 Dreads can not GTFO against supercarriers since they have a 10 min siege timer. (like supercarriers can) My opinion, number 1 is working as intended because you don't just strap a bp and raw materials in a station together to get supers, there's a process and it requires effort. number 2 is wrong cause you still have to get rid of enemy pos from your systems, don't you? and finally dreads can't gtfo from any other thing when they are in siege but we can both agree that the duration needs to be reduced.


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