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Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 21:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Bart Starr wrote:(Good post)
Rather than compare the average high-sec miner to deer, which are wily, swift and worthy prey, I think a more apt comparison would be a bleating sheep. Except sheep are domesticated and can be herded around. You could get sheep through a null-sec gate. How did you get Google translate to convert baaa to english? |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
71
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Posted - 2012.09.23 23:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:Natural selection was at work: Miners were getting better at their trade, learning to tank, cooperating and adapting to ganking tactics. Stupid sheep were dying off.
But then CCP decided to dump a huge truckload of 'stupid miner food' into the playpen. And now they are multiplying, and getting dumber. Good job CCP way to reward bad play. You are an angry young man with a big chip on your shoulder.
I am fascinated about talk of hunter-gatherer, herd mentality, negative pressure yadda ya.
Are people aware that most miners don't even care what you do or what you say?
That people, is why they are miners and not self-proclaimed bad boys playing at street-corner thugs because they were bullied at school.
Does ganking a miner even need a reason? Does it even need to be justified?
If it's fun, then just say it is fun and have done with it.
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Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
72
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Posted - 2012.09.24 00:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:
Does ganking a miner even need a reason? Does it even need to be justified?
If it's fun, then just say it is fun and have done with it.
Well it used to be rather good money but now that the isk is gone there no point in going after the badly tanked miners which is why we now have fleets of untanked bot barges in lonetrek. And as everyone knows, mass botting only leads to bad prices on the markets. And if the prices go low enough miners will either have to accept it or get off their fatasses and do something about it. (reporting, ganking whatever)
Most of what occurs in Eve is self-levelling.
Minerals get cheaper, ganking (or any PvP for that matter) gets cheaper, more of it happens and prices go back up. A beautiful thing imho.
I really think we worry to much about trying to inject regulation or whines about game play styles to get things changed when in reality, they'll change themselves given enough time. |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
98
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 21:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:To the op:
You high-seccers are not doing your job very well. Many systems have been striped of assets recently. So I went about searching for who is doing it. I found several roaming bands of Goons usually 300 to a titan. They go into a system about 20000 strong and clear out all of the infracstructure in short order. Then like a locust move on to the next one. Note we are not talking about buffed T2's or even faction ships, but the cheap T1 BS's. And they are still max kill fit. You miners are just a lazy bunch that are to lazy to go look for the Goons and hunt them down.
As far as your deer hunting story goes. You guys are drinking too much beer on the job then you go out to your favorite tree stand and wait for the prey. Guess what those Goons that you like to hunt have all moved on and you are still sitting in the same damned tree. Get off your ass and go get them.
I fixed it for ya. 
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Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
141
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 21:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: The only way to buff mining profits is to nerf mining.
What? As soon as prices rise, more people will do it (regardless of how) and eventually you'll need to make this same claim again.
Some might be instinctively inclined to think the reverse is true then? Answer is no.
Buff mining to the max, let the market prices plummet, less will do it. Prices go up etc. etc.
See where this is going?
For mine, if I want to increase my profit, I need to increase revenue and to increase revenue, I need to increase demand.
Combine the revenue increase with efficiency / reduction in costs (doing the same job for less) is where I get to push, I win.
The entire (RL) economy is based around doing same for less WHILE you increase demand.
Demand increase options: More ship losses. More subs. Higher requirements to build.
Anyone think of anymore? |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
141
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 22:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: Wrong. Market prices plummet, the miners that are doing it will keep doing it because it's an easy activity that they can now safely AFK. Prices will not go up: that is a fiction brought on by a misunderstanding of basic economic theory of supply and demand.
Please don't apply the "basic economic theory" as an argument. Please.
In RL, the benchmark everyone tries to use, we have an ever-increasing population and no-one goes about blowing up oil-tankers to keep the prices high.
The world economy and population - despite that it should mean serious supply/demand issues - has actually seen prices drop for most of our stuff because of effiencies.
That is just some of the most obvious differences when people try to equate RL economic theory into a VR environment.
But if we must equate.
Increased demand - for your product - increases revenue. Increased efficiences - to gather/produce - increases margin.
The margin is the bit miners chase and is distinctly seperate from supply/demand (albeit Eve "supply/demand" is essentially very static).
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Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 23:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:..stuff.. Mate. For all the faffing about on this. In RL we do not go around blowing up oil-tankers or oil-rigs to increase prices. Period.
And you are completely overlooking the pyschological cost in a gank regime.
Firstly, it's agreed that rocks in Eve is infinite supply and that can't change for obvious reasons.
Thus far, blowing up miners has had only temporary effects on the economy because demand IS as good as absolutely static. But with what has happened thus far - ganking with little economic impact - the anghst from miners was real and tangible.
Supply will always be reasonably static too - the amount mined is "miners logged in x hrs mined" regardless of what's available to mine (which is THE factor in RL resource pricing)
To a miner, the ONLY variable is the difference between what it costs to mine and what it's sold for. No miner is going to repeatedly take a hit on a 200m ship (which, because of the losses is going to make them even more expensive).
You'll fuel a regime where if ganking got too bad people will just quit if that's all they do. Profit/supply/demand is going to prove totally irrelevant. It will only be based around economies of scale. There will be less pilots mining but also less pilots buying. Prices will remain exactly the same.
Demand will actually decrease almost commensurate with the decrease in supply. You get less targets and away we go on a downward spiral until it's all buffed back up again or we all play something else.
I'm calling that we need to increase demand and leave the efficiencies for the miners to work out.
1) Make ships require more mats to build. 2) Make ships easier to kill. 3) Buff insurance so there is less risk aversion (put some obvious no-way-in-hell flags for insurance pay-outs duh!!). 4) Decrease the RL value of subs 5) Provide more content to increase subs and leave sub prices static (whichever works best).
Regardless, nerfing production (by death or by decree) has never been a way to increase profits in RL or VR (withholding supply does but that can only occur where a monopoly over the resource occurs - eg: diamonds and to some extent gold and for VR, T2 mats etc.)
Nerfing the cost to produce always has and always will be the area of profit given (reasonably) static supply and demand which is the Eve economy through and through. |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 00:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:..stuff.. Mate. For all the faffing about on this. In RL we do not go around blowing up oil-tankers or oil-rigs to increase prices. Period. This isn't RL. Its no coincidence that ice mining sucked for years untill the two ice interdictions hit. We effectivly wiped out the vast bulk of miners who were either bots or very bad at it. Coupled with market panic we brought about a three fold increase in profits for miners. Then the barge buff happened and the ganking stopped. The result? A collapse of the ice prices and the spawning of large bot fleets and porly tanked scrubs flooding the market again. Turns out, ganking is a good thing for miners. Funny how it's "not RL" when you justify the ganks but you use RL economic theory to do so.
And my point is made exaclty. The change in prices was temporary. Period.
BUT, and this is my point, the anger/anghst/whine whatever you want to call it over the interdiction bought about an EXTERNAL force to circumvent it.
Why? Because the impact to the game and the players (in this, a VR world) was seriously causing a problem. CCP saw it for what it was and "fixed it".
We cannot call "God" in RL when things go bad and to be perfectly honest CCP played "God" to fix the problem. Whether I or you or anyone else agrees is irrelevant.
>> CCP's RL economic reality required a fix. And so it came to be.
Bring back manic ganking again and it'll simply happen again.
I stand by all this talk about gank, not gank to manipulate prices is purely faffing.
You have to come up with another way. |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
142
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 02:20:00 -
[9] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: You do realise that if you fit a tank you are more or less safe right?
Not this old argument again. sigh...
I don't recall CCP sending out an email to remind the miners of this point.
I don't recall the email where CCP told all the miners to HTFU.
I do recall it causing a LOT of anger and it DID cause unsubs (that's why CCP reacted - it's the ONLY reason they would.
I do recall your whingy/whiney/moan that you're doing the miners a favour.
Oh wait. You're STILL doing it.....
And you reckon the MINERS haven't learned anything. Sheesh Baltec. Just sheesh! |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
143
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 03:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:the usual fluff about how good he is.... I was referring to this oft repeated "tank your barge" and this belief that you do miners "a favour" by being a moron.
And for CCP to hold my hand - it was never asked for - it is a MINING BARGE - any tank fitted was so it could be used AS A MINING BARGE. NO tank is or ever was big enough to stop ganks. The tank stops rats. A completely different purpose.
Besides, the converse is actually true that CCP could be kicking your ass is the same thing, just from my side of the fence. We differ only by choice of playstyle.
The miner is and always has been the victim. You guys just repeatedly defend your moronic playstyle as a neccessity to justify it.
Why do you even bother if you are so right?
Said it before baltec and I'll say it again. Ganking is fun. Stop trying to justify it with bla bla about economics, charitable sacrifice to the Eve community bla bla. Call it for the fun it is and have done with it.
I'm fascinated with this wannabe manipulation of the Eve economy and yet now it seems it's not "economical" to do a gank. duh....
There IS a way baltec. Buy ALL the minerals on the market and KILL ALL the miners. Now sell all the minerals. PROFIT.
Oh. You can't? Too hard? Want CCP to hold YOUR hand. Or maybe 10,000 of yer mates?
So shutup already and stop playing MinerCop.
MinerMan does it hard. He does it solo.
Deal with it. |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
143
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 03:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tarinara wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:-snip- BUT, and this is my point, the anger/anghst/whine whatever you want to call it over the interdiction bought about an EXTERNAL force to circumvent it.
Why? Because the impact to the game and the players (in this, a VR world) was seriously causing a problem. CCP saw it for what it was and "fixed it".
We cannot call "God" in RL when things go bad and to be perfectly honest CCP played "God" to fix the problem. Whether I or you or anyone else agrees is irrelevant. -snip- Just like CCP 'fixed' mission drops because miners ( who obviously sucked at mining ) QQ'd that mission runners were getting too many minerals from mission drops. One person boo-hoo'd about how unfair it was after they had trained up all those skills for mining ( as opposed to the racial BS, weapon and defense systems a mission runner trains. I have both - mining was 'easy'... ). Just how many times does CCP have to come riding in to play White Knight for the mining 'community' who refuses to play smart and adapt? I played at MinerMan during the loot drop days. Never bothered me. Never complained.
And the MINOR changes CCP have made to benefit miners specifically could be counted on one hand. The significant benefits to everyone else in game (FW, Incursions, sovereignty, PI, supers) etc. has been ongoing.
All have plusses (for the users), all have negatives (for the non-users).
Game gotta evolve for EVERYONE.
In fact, why is it even neccessary to bash an individuals playstyle because it doesn't suit you? What gives with that?
Look to enhance and enjoy what YOU do. If the topic is the economies about ganking, then learn to adapt your play and make it happen "economically" or do something else. (although it's perverse to think you should be able to make money blowing up a miner if you haven't got a way to make it profitable - like Goons did - albeit temporarily - during Icegate).
Maybe you can ask to make all miners tank Officer fit if they beyond 20m SP. You know, pick some arbitrary number that benefits you and roll with it.
MinerMan complain you blow him up. You complain you can't and you waz even given nice shiney toys to do it.
MinerMan STILL miining. Who adapted? |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
147
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 05:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Tarinara wrote: Just like CCP 'fixed' mission drops because miners ( who obviously sucked at mining ) QQ'd that mission runners were getting too many minerals from mission drops. One person boo-hoo'd about how unfair it was after they had trained up all those skills for mining ( as opposed to the racial BS, weapon and defense systems a mission runner trains. I have both - mining was 'easy'... ).
Just how many times does CCP have to come riding in to play White Knight for the mining 'community' who refuses to play smart and adapt?
How does a miner "adapt" to drone alloys and reprocessed loot from another profession? But I thought the resources were infinite. What difference does where they come from make? You don't think an increase in the mining population will look an awful lot like the drone regions' contribution did? I guess time will tell. But I think initial indications are "It probably will." Oddly enough, I agree on this point but as I've carried for a long time, why should anybody care one way or the other.
I'm completely confused why non-miners and presumably non-industrialists are bothered about ore prices being too low.
Doesn't that actually make their gameplay easier?
Why would anyone ASK for ways to make stuff more expensive? It defies logic. |

Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2012.09.28 21:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:
I'm completely confused why non-miners and presumably non-industrialists are bothered about ore prices being too low.
Doesn't that actually make their gameplay easier?
Why would anyone ASK for ways to make stuff more expensive? It defies logic.
So let me get this right. As a miner, you think it is better for say, trit prices to go from 6-7isk/unit to 3isk/unit? I used to mine quite happily when we couldn't get much more than 2 isk. Didn't bother me.
Why? A large chunk of miners don't sell the ore. They build stuff. All that is needed is for 1 or 2 of the ores to stay relatively high in price and the product sells at a good price.
And my point was that it makes YOUR gameplay easier, so why are YOU bitching about it.
MinerMan will do his own bitching when needed. They dont need your "charity"'. |
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