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Kyes Torvalis
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Posted - 2011.08.26 01:43:00 -
[1]
I have an idea on how to limit supercaps and titans, in a way that would help to balance the game, while remaining in-line with the "immersion" of the game. These are massive ships, they require immense amount of supplies, fuel, and crew to operate.
The logical extension of that, is that in order to make use of these, you must control the infrastructure(sov)required to supply them. Limit the amount of titans or super caps that an alliance can field (not own), around the amount of space they control. They can field one supercap per system they control, and one titan for every five systems they control. (all numbers are arbitrary, and subject to change)
This might not be the end all, be all fix, but it would certainly limit the ability of any single alliance to drop 50 titans, and 100 supercaps on a single fight, and wtfdoomsday their way to victory, 10 minutes at a time.
*dons his asbestos overalls*
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Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
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Posted - 2011.08.26 02:26:00 -
[2]
Alliances would split into sub alliances. Increasing the cost of supercaps by 1 billion, which is nothing.
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Akuma Tsukai
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.26 03:38:00 -
[3]
wont help.
we just need dedicated anti cap weapon which can be installed on smaller ships. Currently say you see reve... nah pathetic archon. Even when its solo (lol) how much ships and of what class do you need to bring to take it down before cavalry arrives?
Currently the only ships of such class are SB but they are designed to kill BS max, so mebbe i dunno, SB cruiser size? or better yet, BC size? (we lack T2 BC anyway). With corresponding changes, anti capital ship torpedo instead of bomb, same launcher, etc...
And then i run out of coke.
----
Drones eat everything. Trust me. |
Umad Bro Questionmark
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Posted - 2011.08.26 03:41:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Akuma Tsukai
wont help.
we just need dedicated anti cap weapon which can be installed on smaller ships. Currently say you see reve... nah pathetic archon. Even when its solo (lol) how much ships and of what class do you need to bring to take it down before cavalry arrives?
Currently the only ships of such class are SB but they are designed to kill BS max, so mebbe i dunno, SB cruiser size? or better yet, BC size? (we lack T2 BC anyway). With corresponding changes, anti capital ship torpedo instead of bomb, same launcher, etc...
And then i run out of coke.
SUPERCAPS ARE MEANT TO NOT BE KILLED BY A GANG OF 3 PUBBIES FLYING AROUND, THATS WHY THEY ARE SUPER CAPS FOR ****'S SAKE
Current state of the forums:
Making capsuleers slightly angry since 2003.
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Snarly Pete
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Posted - 2011.08.26 03:56:00 -
[5]
Just take away their jump drives. Easy fix.
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Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.26 04:24:00 -
[6]
Na, CCPs fix will simply be to keep the cost the same, but reduce the amount of shield/armour it has.
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Kiyl
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Posted - 2011.08.26 06:32:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Snarly Pete
Just take away their jump drives. Easy fix.
Because dropping 50bil on a ship that is limited to one system is totally worth it...
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.08.26 10:26:00 -
[8]
LoL dedicated anticapital weapons? Just balance the EHP of supers and Titans and dreads + subcapitals with good tactics and numbers will balance everything out fine... |
XGS Crimson
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Posted - 2011.08.26 11:27:00 -
[9]
It's a really tough issue to deal with, They could make specialist anti supercap battleships (black ops) but then that would make them too easy to bring down and no one would bring them to the fight (think of how easy it is to get black ops ships).
I also think the idea of making another capital ship devoted to killing super capitals would not work either as it would result in more capitals on the field.
A good solution that comes to mind for me would be to design either a ship class, or a ship module that is effectivley a titan superweapon, but split down so that smaller ships (black ops) can fit the modules so you wont be able to kill a titan by yourzself, but get 20-30 of these badboys to combine their fire into one beam and you get a superweapon.
Any thoughts?
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whaynethepain
Dissident Aggressors
Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2011.08.26 11:39:00 -
[10]
How about mobile destructible cyno jammers?
Cruiser class bombers?
Dunno, last time I fought a cap in my Vigil, it couldn't hit me with it's fighters, so I don't know what's up.
I must ask how the drones sit in the fighter bay?
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Jacob Stov
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Posted - 2011.08.26 12:39:00 -
[11]
Reduce EHP of fighter bombers to assault frigate level. I guess this will greatly reduce the popularity of them buggers. 
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.08.26 12:47:00 -
[12]
Here is my "supercap fix":
When supercap pilots log in, they get a message asking which station they want the capital components, rigs, fuel, drones and modules that used to comprise their ship placed into. CCP admit that supers were a cool concept that didn't work out in practice. A few hundred super pilots sperge about how their lives are ruined now that they don't have their hideously unbalanced win-buttons.
The rest of us get on with playing a much-improved game.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Dark Pangolin
Caldari
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2011.08.26 13:00:00 -
[13]
How about mobile destructible cyno jammers.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2011.08.26 13:27:00 -
[14]
its pretty easy to stem the amount of resource that is needed.
Im supprised any cyno doesnt already have a max mass limit which shuts down the cyno (and the pilot has to use more fuel for another cyno) That could have been an agle in use since the start.
Maybe even have the size of the ship the cyno is on, ups or downs the max mass limit, aka a carrier needed to keep a cyno up for 50 supers on one cyno.
Cooldown of 10 minutes still applies or not depending how testing went etc.
Or have a seperate super cyno for supers, and a dedicated ship to run it on.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.08.26 14:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Skinae
Alliances would split into sub alliances. Increasing the cost of supercaps by 1 billion, which is nothing.
Yes, because that magically makes five new systems to take sov in appear out of nowhere.
As far as limiting the number of supers available, the OP's idea is one of the less terrible ones. However I don't think that just limiting the number would balance them - if anything it would result in the same controversy as exists around TII BPOs: "only a limited number of people have them and I am not one of them, NERF NERF REMOVE".
---
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Kulmid
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.08.26 15:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Malcanis
Here is my "supercap fix":
When supercap pilots log in, they get a message asking which station they want the capital components, rigs, fuel, drones and modules that used to comprise their ship placed into. CCP admit that supers were a cool concept that didn't work out in practice. A few hundred super pilots sperge about how their lives are ruined now that they don't have their hideously unbalanced win-buttons.
The rest of us get on with playing a much-improved game.
It's like the person in the room who says what we don't want to hear, but we know it's true.
_________________
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Verity Sovereign
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Posted - 2011.08.26 16:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: XGS Crimson
I also think the idea of making another capital ship devoted to killing super capitals would not work either as it would result in more capitals on the field.
At least it wouldn't be a repeat of Star Craft's "Carriers = instant win" mechanic.
I like the idea of turning Dreads into a Carrier killing monster.
Dreads are still vulnerable to BS's and the like due to terrible tracking.
If dreads in could track well enough to hit carriers, but still miss BS and smaller - and have the DPS to obliterate carriers, I think it could work.
I think it would need to be done by tweaking the XL gun sig resolution, and the carrier+super carrier sig radius.
Carriers kill BS and smaller.
Dreads kill Carriers
BS and smaller kill dreads.
(and its even more complex when you look at what kills what in the BS and smaller category).
If one side comes with just Carriers, you bring dreads, and wipe them out.
If one side brings just dreads (or mostly dreads), you bring no capitals at all, and wipe them out.
If one side brings no capitals at all, you bring carriers, and wipe them out
If one side brings a mixed force... uhh bring a bigger mixed force? see if the force isn't quite evenly mixed, try to vary the ratios of ship types you bring?
Balance!
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Zakua Corbin
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Posted - 2011.08.26 17:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Verity Sovereign
Originally by: XGS Crimson
I also think the idea of making another capital ship devoted to killing super capitals would not work either as it would result in more capitals on the field.
At least it wouldn't be a repeat of Star Craft's "Carriers = instant win" mechanic.
I like the idea of turning Dreads into a Carrier killing monster.
Dreads are still vulnerable to BS's and the like due to terrible tracking.
If dreads in could track well enough to hit carriers, but still miss BS and smaller - and have the DPS to obliterate carriers, I think it could work.
I think it would need to be done by tweaking the XL gun sig resolution, and the carrier+super carrier sig radius.
Carriers kill BS and smaller.
Dreads kill Carriers
BS and smaller kill dreads.
(and its even more complex when you look at what kills what in the BS and smaller category).
If one side comes with just Carriers, you bring dreads, and wipe them out.
If one side brings just dreads (or mostly dreads), you bring no capitals at all, and wipe them out.
If one side brings no capitals at all, you bring carriers, and wipe them out
If one side brings a mixed force... uhh bring a bigger mixed force? see if the force isn't quite evenly mixed, try to vary the ratios of ship types you bring?
Balance!
This is good stuff
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.08.26 19:50:00 -
[19]
This is honestly one of the best ideas I've heard for limiting supercap proliferation, but it's still horribly flawed.
This will simply result in alliances gobbling up as much so sov as they can to maximize the amount of supercaps they can have, pushing out smaller alliances, and once they have a monopoly to defend their sov no one else will be able to create a supercap fleet that can counter the established entities.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2011.08.26 23:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Verity Sovereign
Originally by: XGS Crimson
I also think the idea of making another capital ship devoted to killing super capitals would not work either as it would result in more capitals on the field.
At least it wouldn't be a repeat of Star Craft's "Carriers = instant win" mechanic.
I like the idea of turning Dreads into a Carrier killing monster.
Dreads are still vulnerable to BS's and the like due to terrible tracking.
If dreads in could track well enough to hit carriers, but still miss BS and smaller - and have the DPS to obliterate carriers, I think it could work.
I think it would need to be done by tweaking the XL gun sig resolution, and the carrier+super carrier sig radius.
Carriers kill BS and smaller.
Dreads kill Carriers
BS and smaller kill dreads.
(and its even more complex when you look at what kills what in the BS and smaller category).
If one side comes with just Carriers, you bring dreads, and wipe them out.
If one side brings just dreads (or mostly dreads), you bring no capitals at all, and wipe them out.
If one side brings no capitals at all, you bring carriers, and wipe them out
If one side brings a mixed force... uhh bring a bigger mixed force? see if the force isn't quite evenly mixed, try to vary the ratios of ship types you bring?
Balance!
I totally agree that this equal balance.
However, POS need to be tweaked substantially in order to make it all really work.
If dreads do epic damage against carriers and supercaps, then under current mechanics, they will also be doing epic dps to POS, and while that is not necessarily a bad thing since POS bashes are bull**** anyway, it needs to be taken into account. Tbh, I'd say do the tracking/sig stuff, and then give dreads a role bonus along the lines of 'however much% more damage to capital ships'. Alternatively, rework their siege mode bonuses to get the desired anti-POS effect, and the non-siege ship only works against caps. Something like that anyway. Thus, dreads stay where they are in terms of POS bashing ability but are still anti-cap boomsticks.
Basically, my worry is that if dreads have substantially higher damage output against POS/structures than they have now, they will be rivaling supercaps, and with dreads being so evil against supers, there wouldn't be much point in taking super caps out to pretty much any situation. Yes, dreads tank less, but the cost like 2% of a super. Anyways, if people stop taking supers out to bash structures, the only places you'll ever see supers is either soloing people in low sec or in the scale of fight where a regular fleet can fight them, and then we have a whole other problem with dreads being too awesome.
SO yeah. Just a tweak against structures plz.
Otherwise, this man speaks sense.
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Zylithi
Caldari
Strange Energy
Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.08.27 01:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: XGS Crimson
It's a really tough issue to deal with, They could make specialist anti supercap battleships (black ops) but then that would make them too easy to bring down and no one would bring them to the fight (think of how easy it is to get black ops ships).
I also think the idea of making another capital ship devoted to killing super capitals would not work either as it would result in more capitals on the field.
A good solution that comes to mind for me would be to design either a ship class, or a ship module that is effectivley a titan superweapon, but split down so that smaller ships (black ops) can fit the modules so you wont be able to kill a titan by yourzself, but get 20-30 of these badboys to combine their fire into one beam and you get a superweapon.
Any thoughts?
I endorse this.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2011.08.27 01:52:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Zylithi
Originally by: XGS Crimson
It's a really tough issue to deal with, They could make specialist anti supercap battleships (black ops) but then that would make them too easy to bring down and no one would bring them to the fight (think of how easy it is to get black ops ships).
I also think the idea of making another capital ship devoted to killing super capitals would not work either as it would result in more capitals on the field.
A good solution that comes to mind for me would be to design either a ship class, or a ship module that is effectivley a titan superweapon, but split down so that smaller ships (black ops) can fit the modules so you wont be able to kill a titan by yourzself, but get 20-30 of these badboys to combine their fire into one beam and you get a superweapon.
Any thoughts?
I endorse this.
To be honest, I think that this is the most likely 'fix' to be implemented. They said somewhere that black ops are going to become cap hunters, but at the same time not awesome against everything else.
Just as pure speculation, I would guess it'll be a continuous beam weapon with hilarious bad tracking and sig, and with a combined with a target painter type effect. So, one beam hitting a cap doesn't do a whole lot, but you get a damage jump with each additional beam (up to whatever point) hitting the target.
With twenty or more beams on target, each black ops is doing say 3k dps only to supercaps. 1500dps to regular caps. Below that point, the damage is lower ofc.
Less than say ten black ops, and you may as well use regular gank fit BS, but once you get past the sweet spot you get a really good bonus.
It'd similarly be nice for black ops to be usable to pos bash tbh.
But yeah... I fully endorse black ops being made really good at something, and I similarly fully endorse a black ops death beam. |
Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2011.08.27 06:34:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
Stuff
The only problem with this is you have a ship that cost as much as a carrier but will have even less EHP. It will still be weak to DD and drones/fighters. Which really solves no problem at all.
1) Give dreads a mini doomsday. Exactly like the DD except:
A) Cycles every 5 minutes
B) Does 100k damage per shot.
C) Amplified by Siege Cycle(625%)
D) Damage based only on sig rad of target( no structures).
*Above 10,000 sig rad damage is always 100%.
*Below 10k the damage is dependent on sig rad size( scaling to 10k). A dread with a sig of 3000 would receive about 30% of the damage( about 200k in siege mode). A BS might receive in the neighborhood of 3-8% depending on the ship and its setup.Thus the goal here is to make dreads useful against SCs and ok (using MiniDD) against other caps but not very effective against subcaps.
This alone would greatly improve both the situation with dreads and with SCs. Dreads would be your fleet size SC killers. Then take the black ops BS and expand the class into a covert cap/super cap hunter.
Then to fix black ops:
1) Black ops BS- same as now but:
* Immune to DD( but not Mini DD[see above])
* Cannot be targeted by Fighters or Fighter Bombers( Built in Electronic Counter Measure). Can still be targeted by drones.
* Can Fit BS size Anti Capital Turrets/Launchers( new weapon see below).
* Can jump other black ops classes with it.
2) Black Ops Command BC.
* Cost about 350 mil.
* Similar stats to T2 command ships.
* Immune to DD( but not mini DD)
* Cannot be targeted by fighters or fighter bombers.
* Can use the Capital Hunter Warfare Link( new module)
* Can fit CR/BC size Anti Cap Turrets/Launchers.
3) Black Ops Ewar T2Cruiser:
* Immune to DD.
* Cannot be targeted by fighters or fighter bombers.
* Cost about 150 mil.
* Can fit CR/BC size Anti Cap Turrets/Launchers.
* Can fit Anti Cap Ewar modules ( new module)
* 5% more resist to primary tank than HACs,
4) Black OPs Capital Assassin( Black ops t2 stealth bomber):
* Same basic build as SBs
* Uses BS size anti capital weapons( cannot use normal torps)
* Immune to DD.
* Cannot be targeted by fighters or fighter bombers.
* Cost about 40 mil.
* -5% sig rad per black ops level.
5) Black Ops T2 Capital Heavy Interceptor.
* Cost 40 mil.
* Immune to DD.
* Cannot be targeted by fighters or fighter bombers.
* T2 Assault frig hull/ stats.
* Class bonus: 25% boost to AB and MWD speed.
* 350-450 m3 cargo hold ( for mobile warp disruptors)
* Ship Bonus: Immune to friendly mobile warp bubbles( Can warp out of bubbles if the source of the bubble has the same alliance ticker). this includes HIC and Dictor bubbles.
* cannot use anti cap weapons
* Can use anti capital warp scrambler( new module)
Cont.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2011.08.27 06:37:00 -
[24]
Cont
Modules
----------------------------
Anti Cap weapons:
* 30 second firing cycle.
* Same PG,CPU, cap requirement of the largest T2 weapon of that class.
* Designed against large slow moving targets. Not very effective against sub caps.
* Ammo is in line with other racial ammo.
* Can Fit multiple cannons on a ship.
* Can only fit to Black ops class ships.
* All damage bonuses apply including skills, implants, and damage/tracking mods.
-Damage:
~ BS- 7.5k per cycle(250 DPS per cannon base
~ CR/BC- 4k per shot cycle (133 DPS base)
Capital Hunter Warfare Link:
*Can only be fitted to black op command BC.
*Increases Damage output of Anti cap weapons by 10%.
*Increases Optimal of Anti Cap weapons by 25%.
Black Ops Anti Cap Ewar Modules- Note: These modules can only be used against caps and super capitals.Note 2: You must be getting bonuses from the Capital Hunter Warfare Link to use these against super capitals.Note 3: Super Caps are not Immune to this type of Ewar.
---------------------
*Caldari- Anti Capital Multispectural Jammer
-10% chance of jamming per cycle regardless of ships sensor strength.
-20km optimal with 10km falloff.
-20 sec cycle
-jams for 10 seconds if successful.
*Amarr- Tracking disruption
-Reduces tracking by 20%
-Reduces optimal and falloff by 20%
-10 sec cycle time.
-30km optimal with 15km falloff
*Gallente- Sensor Dampening
- Targeting Range -20%
- Scan Res -20%
- Optimal 30km with 15km falloff.
- 10 sec cycle
*Minnie- Stasis Webifier( yeah i know this dont really serve a purpose against enemy caps but got to stay with the racial theme)
- Speed -60%
- cycle 10 seconds
- Range of 15km.
------------------
Anti Capital Warp Scrambler
*Can only be used on Black Ops T2 Capital Interceptor
*Can scramble capitals and supercapitals only( super caps are not immune to this type of scrambler)
*Scram Strength of 2 points.
*15 KM range.
*10 second cycle
.......That should help reblance things and make some useless ships more useful.......
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Cpt AngelNova
Amarr
Licentia Ex Vereor
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Posted - 2011.08.27 09:33:00 -
[25]
My Carrier just Crapped itself but that said.
Thorian Baalnorn
YOu have some great ideas in your post and i can only hope CCP takes note of This, There defenatly needs to be more to Black ops...even if only th Black ops Battleships.
Regards
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.08.27 10:27:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Aamrr on 27/08/2011 10:27:28
The issue I have with that is how it would affect normal capitals. Carriers and dreads are reasonably well balanced. Introducing an anti-capital ship might counter the supercaps...but it could also nerf normal capitals into oblivion, too.
I'd prefer something that "abuses the sensitive electronics that protect supercapitals from conventional electronic warfare," or similar techno-babble. If you insist on building a ship to counter supercapitals, make sure that only counters the supercapitals. God knows dreadnoughts don't need another nerf.
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Dado Prso
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Posted - 2011.08.27 11:06:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Dado Prso on 27/08/2011 11:06:55
25% hp reduction, remove all drones bar fighters/fb |
Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2011.08.27 17:09:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aamrr
Edited by: Aamrr on 27/08/2011 10:27:28
The issue I have with that is how it would affect normal capitals. Carriers and dreads are reasonably well balanced. Introducing an anti-capital ship might counter the supercaps...but it could also nerf normal capitals into oblivion, too.
I'd prefer something that "abuses the sensitive electronics that protect supercapitals from conventional electronic warfare," or similar techno-babble. If you insist on building a ship to counter supercapitals, make sure that only counters the supercapitals. God knows dreadnoughts don't need another nerf.
Its not like caps don't just die to regular fleets atm. A few neuts and some dps and down they go. You can confidently fight a siongle carrier with say 6-10 guys if you come prepared.
Also, I think it goes without saying that the cap hunter weapons are sig radius dependent, and there is a major jump between supercaps and regular caps. They aren't just supposed to be super dps weapons.
Anyways, I thoroughly support the cap hunter idea.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.08.27 18:14:00 -
[29]
I'm just asking you to consider something here. Are capital ships the problem, or are supercapitals? And if supercapitals are the problem, why are you introducing something that hunts capital ships?
Any time you introduce a new species to an ecosystem, you get consequences. Some are intentional, certainly, but there are unforeseen ones as well. And the more complex the ecosystem, the more consequences arise. CCP is having enough difficulty balancing the capital ship ecosystem as it is. Is introducing another predator really the best way to handle this?
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2011.08.27 19:10:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Katarlia Simov
stuff
Right, They would mainly be a anti supercap weapon on normal ship. They would scale down a bit better than a mini DD( on the dread). say 7500 sig rad for max damage on BS size weapons and 5000 sig rad for max damage on CR/BC size weapons.This means they would do about 1/2 damage to normal caps depending on the cap and setup of course.
Also to note these ships are expensive. I dont want normal caps to be a good counter to them because then you have super caps with carrier support to take care of them. My ideal vision here is A black ops fleet hunting with the dreads with the mini DD above on standby. Find the enemy cap/SC fleet and light a cyno for dread/carrier fire support. This, i envision would be for larger fleets. While the black ops would hunt solo and small groups without cap support. Because we all know people use their caps now for money making. Would also be good for those who lag behind a fleet cyno jump because they werent paying attention. Like sharks following boat waiting for someone to fall overboard:)
I also thought about adding another Ewar module that was not racial and was also unique and could only be used on supercaps. And that is this:
Anti Super Capital Harmonic Destabilizer :
* Can only be fit to Black ops EWAR cruiser.
* Must be receiving bonuses from Capital Hunter Warfare Link to work.
* Only works on Super capital class ships.
* Lowers current resistance on shield, armor, and hull by 10% ( IE: SC has 80% EM resist to armor, this lowers it to 72%. SC pilot turns off hardner and now has 70% resist to EM, this lowers it to 63%)
* Will not work on a target already affected by this effect.( thus no stacking)
* Range of 20km ( no falloff)
But then i create the problem of having a command ship that is going to be heavily targeted. So to fix this:
Defense Resonator: Causes shield and armor harmonics to resonate and amplify.
* Can only fit to Black ops Command Ships.
* Must have an active Capital Hunter Warfare Link that you are receiving bonuses from.
* Increases all shield and armor resistance to 95% regardless of previous resist percent.
* Cannot fire weapons while this active.
* Cannot run any type of reppers while this is active including cap boosters.
* Cannot control drones while this is active( they may however still fight just no new instructions)
* Cannot use AB or MWD and cannot warp or jump systems ( cyno bridge or gate)
* Can move at normal ship speed.
* Can target.
* Passive Cap and shield regen is reduced to 50% of current.
* Cannot receive remote rep,cap transfers.
* All harmful effects( Scrams, webs, nuets, jammed, etc) can still affect command ship.
* Duration is 10 seconds and it autocycles( you have to turn it off manually)
So basically what i did here was make it so that dedicated command ships couldnt be as easily instapoped. Now you have a massive tank on T2 BC. But all that BC can do is give bonuses and allow the operation of SC EWAR mods. It is also not difficult to counter with a few nuets. As you just have to cause the the mod to shutoff and then commence to popping or bring overwhelming force. What it does prevent is a sniper fleet from taking it out at 80 KM and from being insta popped.
Ideally i would like to see, in this case, the module have a reasonable cap usage. So its not difficult to shut it down with a few neuts but at the same time a smallish cap booster will allow it to come right back up again. A command ship that plays the role i gave this one should be powerful defensively so it command longer than 10 seconds in a fight but also be useless for everything else while commanding but not impossible to take out.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2011.08.27 19:25:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Aamrr
I'm just asking you to consider something here. Are capital ships the problem, or are supercapitals? And if supercapitals are the problem, why are you introducing something that hunts capital ships?
Any time you introduce a new species to an ecosystem, you get consequences. Some are intentional, certainly, but there are unforeseen ones as well. And the more complex the ecosystem, the more consequences arise. CCP is having enough difficulty balancing the capital ship ecosystem as it is. Is introducing another predator really the best way to handle this?
These would really not be much more effective against caps as the same number of ships but in a BS fleet. And these ships are much more expensive. The idea here is to get off both the capital and SC blob napfest blue it or blow it up that is currently the FOTY. Captials are considered to be mostly throw a way ships that are more expensive than a BS. SCs are the pride and joy we have to be careful committing these to battle. You can buy a capital with a long weekend of grinding in decent 0.0 space.
The goal of CCP as i understand it is not to have one ship type/setup as mega blobs. Unfornuately, for CCP, no dev has ever managed to make a game where alliance speccing one or two types of builds is not the best route to the WEPWNALL Button. at least none i ever have heard of or played. Creating a game where ships are balanced and speccing a whole fleet of ships is not as beneficial as a mixed fleet would be the Holy Grail of MMOs. It's something that borders on the impossible. While the goal is kind of like Rock Paper Scissors, it definitely isnt that easy to achieve that kind of balance. But if anyone can do it CCP can. Not brown nosing but ive played a lot of MMOs and SP games and CCP has the most creative, innovative and best in general devs i have ever seen in my 14 years of online gaming. And thats not a compliment i give lightly cause i have seen some really good devs in my time but the ones at CCP seem to be the pick of the litter.
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Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
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Posted - 2011.08.27 19:39:00 -
[32]
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.08.27 19:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?
The man speaks sense. 
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2011.08.27 20:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?
Because all that does is transfer the problem to another class. Once you nerf supers like say take away 25% of their EHP or make them completely vulnerable to ewar, those very rich highly skilled super cap owners will break out their caps and just cap blob. They dont have to risk the crown jewel and now they can just do massive blobs of normal caps which to a supercap owner, who pays 2 fitted dreads or better for a single module for their supercap , can now afford to lose en masse.
Thus you just transferred the blob from one class to the next. And CCP wants people to fly mixed fleets not single fit blobs on a smaller ship.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.08.27 20:11:00 -
[35]
We dont need a special new class to hunt capitals, because we already have such a class: supercaps.
In all seriousness, if we're not going to to just delete supercaps (and I still favour this solution), then the answer is to make them essentially worthless vs subcaps, in the same way that long range BS are worthless vs frigates.
Nerf the ever-living crap out of titan gun tracking so that it's only 25% or so better than seiged dread tracking, make the DD inefficient vs subcaps (give it a explosion radius of 3000m and an explosion velocity of 100m/s or so), and nerf fighter-bombers similarly.
Finally, remove the rig slots from supercaps. They're only ever used for T2 hitpoint rigs anyway, and the massive EHP of these ships is half the problem.
I honestly have no objection to seeing supers in massive capital battles; that's where they belong. The endless ****ery of seeing subcap fleets decimated by massed Titans has to stop. Alliances that deploy supers without a proper support fleet should expect to lose them.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
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Posted - 2011.08.27 20:17:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Nin Kimrov on 27/08/2011 20:17:14
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?
Because all that does is transfer the problem to another class. Once you nerf supers like say take away 25% of their EHP or make them completely vulnerable to ewar, those very rich highly skilled super cap owners will break out their caps and just cap blob. They dont have to risk the crown jewel and now they can just do massive blobs of normal caps which to a supercap owner, who pays 2 fitted dreads or better for a single module for their supercap , can now afford to lose en masse.
Thus you just transferred the blob from one class to the next. And CCP wants people to fly mixed fleets not single fit blobs on a smaller ship.
You know, I agree with that, but you can't fix this without reworking what you added in the game. First thing is to nerf supercap and specialise them in ONE role, with weakness, after you do that with all the capitals, then maybe you will be abble to dream about mixed fleets.
Edit: Anyways, the first largest big problem was the introduction of capital ships and jump drives.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.08.27 20:23:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
Originally by: Nin Kimrov
For one time the easiest solution is the best. Why don't we just nerf Supercapitals?
Because all that does is transfer the problem to another class. Once you nerf supers like say take away 25% of their EHP or make them completely vulnerable to ewar, those very rich highly skilled super cap owners will break out their caps and just cap blob. They dont have to risk the crown jewel and now they can just do massive blobs of normal caps which to a supercap owner, who pays 2 fitted dreads or better for a single module for their supercap , can now afford to lose en masse.
Thus you just transferred the blob from one class to the next. And CCP wants people to fly mixed fleets not single fit blobs on a smaller ship.
Normal capital ships can practically be countered with fleets of ships that aren't capitals. In any case, the fundamental unit of a fleet is the pilot. Titans cost 20x as much as dreads, but that doesn't mean that a pilot who doesn't want to deploy his titan can bring 20 dreads instead.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2011.08.27 20:42:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Malcanis
We dont need a special new class to hunt capitals, because we already have such a class: supercaps.
And here this whole thread i thought we was talking about hunting/nerfing supercaps. The problem with nerfing is many people have invested or are investing a lot of isk and time into these ships. Nor is it necessary to just hit the delete button and send them to the trash bin. They need a reduced role. Really i think the vision was for these supers to lead a fleet not BE THE FLEET. Say a titan a couple of supercarriers and then a small fleet of 30-50 caps with a support fleet of a couple hundred mixed sub caps. In a perfect eve i believe this is what CCP envisioned. But as with all MMOS, It stops being about playing the game and starts being about either surviving or trying to "win". Its always the players that think they must win the whole sandbox and claim i beat Eve that start the process of ruining it. Then you have the players that counter this with the "I must survive" and use the same tactics to counter the IMUSTWIN crowd. And thus a downward spiral until everyone quits and goes and starts the process over on a new MMO.
Quote:
First thing is to nerf supercap and specialise them in ONE role, with weakness, after you do that with all the capitals, then maybe you will be abble to dream about mixed fleets.
Thus the role of black ops class. They create a weakness in Supercaps. Especially after i added the the mod that lowers all resistance across the board. Anyone can take advantage of the weakness. And then their is the dread. Again in large groups these should be able to counter a few supers. But 1/2 a dozen supers can turn a fleet of 20 30 dreads into scrap metal pretty quickly.
Quote:
Titans cost 20x as much as dreads, but that doesn't mean that a pilot who doesn't want to deploy his titan can bring 20 dreads instead.
Last i looked the base cost of a dread around a billion and the base cost of a titan was around 60-80 bil did the cost drop?
Your missing an important factor here. That Titan pilot spent alot of time training and alot of money aquiring that titan and fitting it. That means only a select class of individuals can fly these things. So when you go out in an ALL SC fleet You may have 50-200 SCs available in your napfest of 10-20k people. But when you drop down to the much cheaper and much easier to skill dread. Now all the sudden your fleet isnt 50-200 SC pilots but 400-800 cap pilots out of the same 10k-20k people.
I mean seriously just about everyone that is over 2 1/2 years old that lives in 0.0 can fly or is really close to being able to fly a carrier or dread.And you can spend a couple to 3 days ratting 0.0 hardcore and make enough to buy and fit one. 4-6 days for a dread. 2 1/2 -3 months for a supercarrier just to buy the ship no fittings.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.08.29 10:51:00 -
[39]
Spending more isk in Eve has never and should never give anyone a big advantage...
Fit Dread: 1,5b vs 15b :Supercarrier (Aprox)
10 dreads vs 1 supercarrier -> I wouldn't be surprised if the supercarrier won
Fit BS: 150m vs 1,5b :Carrier w/Fighters
10 BS vs 1 Carrier -> I would be surprised if the carrier survived
Obviously game gets far more interesting adding support and multiple supercarriers, however fleets of supercarriers and titans proven numerous times that they can win fights hugely outnumbered without any support.
There are massive issues to adress and I don't belive single solutions will solve everything, however nerfing hitpoints, agressive potential and adressing some of the e-war immunity and Remote Repairability will get Eve a long way...
Limiting numbers will be way difficult and seem very artificial - People should be allowed to fly what they want.
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I'm a nice guy!!
But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
Mylor Torlone
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Posted - 2011.08.29 15:20:00 -
[40]
Just remove the super capitals and be done with it. Honestly.
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Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.29 21:24:00 -
[41]
Hey look a thread filled with terrible ideas with Malcanis being the only sensible person posting. How novel.
_____
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.08.30 16:47:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
Thus the role of black ops class. They create a weakness in Supercaps.
No, they create targets for supercaps. Then those supercaps create Black ops wrecks. Then those former black ops pilots swear at their FC and start grinding for their own supercap.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
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Posted - 2011.08.30 17:29:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Because all that does is transfer the problem to another class. Once you nerf supers like say take away 25% of their EHP or make them completely vulnerable to ewar, those very rich highly skilled super cap owners will break out their caps and just cap blob.
Before there were caps people BS blobbed. It doesn't matter what ship is the biggest ship, people will blob in it.
If the blobbing is ever to stop, it needs to be possible for small groups of people to get stuff done. Release specialized modules/ships/skills that hack into PoS'es and Moon Miners to disable and steal the resources from them until dealt with. Release a dreadnaught module that disrupts the docking bays of an outpost so nobody can dock there as long as the mod is activated on the station. Stuff like that.
Make it so alliances have to actually defend their space and the resources it offers instead of painting 5 regions in their color and blobbing up 500 capitals on sunday evening to show who's boss.
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Emperor Ryan
Amarr
The Illuminatii
Mildly Intoxicated
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Posted - 2011.08.30 17:50:00 -
[44]
If you wana fix Supers, all you need o do is Buff dreads, so that dreads are a viable counter for supers, 100 man dread fleet worth 100b-200b (max) You just need to manage to kill 5-10 supers with focus fire in order to come out on top.
Add a damage bonus to Dreads with siege greater than it's current bonus to justify bringing back a rarely used ship and a counter to supers.
Cause even if you nerf supers, You can't nerf the fact that the alliances that own multiple supers will still have the super blob
- Emperor
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MeBiatch
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Posted - 2011.08.30 18:18:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Emperor Ryan
If you wana fix Supers, all you need o do is Buff dreads, so that dreads are a viable counter for supers, 100 man dread fleet worth 100b-200b (max) You just need to manage to kill 5-10 supers with focus fire in order to come out on top.
Add a damage bonus to Dreads with siege greater than it's current bonus to justify bringing back a rarely used ship and a counter to supers.
Cause even if you nerf supers, You can't nerf the fact that the alliances that own multiple supers will still have the super blob
kinda silly just to buff dreads as they buffed moms to take on dreads...
tbh the change from pos based sov is what killed dreads...
If anything introduce a cap ship that uses e-war against cap ships but only when its in seige mode... make the ship vulnerable to sub cap ships and presto... we have balance in the force...
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