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Cerberus, an exercise in passive tanking

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KamiCrazy	Posted - 2005.03.07 02:09:00 - [1] I was going over some of the stats for the cerberus as I am trying to figure out which HAC is more fun to fly for level 4 agent missions, and a few ideas came into my head. Note, this isn't about PvP, and is not in any way related to "real" situations, so go away with the flames. I currently fly a caracal again for agent missions as I am working another factions R&D corp up (cause I want the only other qua 18 agent). I have come to appreciate that cruisers in general are just way better IMO then BS's or BC's for missions, but they do need a lot of skill points to run effectively for missions. They have less, margin for error. While reviewing the stats for the cerberus somehow the idea of passively tanking it came about. Now most people think the best passive tanking ships are the scorp and the dom but I think the cerb can give it a real run for its money. Based on my own character I've come up with this outline. A cerb has elite cruiser resistances. 80 therm, 70 kinetic, 60 explosive, 0 EMP. With 1 EMP hardner on the shields (an anointed will do), you can have every facet resistances covered pretty much. The only thing you should worry about is explosive missles and EMP heavy lasers. This saves slots in terms of hardners, instead of needing 2 or even 3 hardners, you only use 1, so the cerb compares well with its 5 mids vs the 6 slots of the dom or the 8 slots of the scorp. It effectively has 7 slots, if you consider taking a thermal hardner and a kinetic one. A cerb has only 1425 shield HP, and 1000 sec recharge rate. Its not bad, but not great either, however slap a large shield extender on the thing and its got 2825 shields now with the same 1000 sec recharge rate. Add skills of +25% and this becomes 3531.25. Thats pre skills dom shield... with half the recharge time. 100tf and 400mw seems hefty, but I have shield upgrades 5, which brings it down to 300mw. CPU isn't a big deal on the cerb if you stick to malkuth heavies (which are easy and cheap to aquire). With shield op 5, you can bring down the base recharge to 750secs. So for the cost of 2 mid slots, you have 80 therm, 70 kinetic, 60 expl, 50 EMP resistances, 3531 shield HP and 750 sec recharge time. Oh and it doesn't kill your cap either. Not bad IMO, it doesn't hold up to active tanking of course, but you still have 3 mids and 4 lows to play with to boost the HP/s gain up.
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2005.03.07 02:53:00 - [2] Edited by: JoeSomebody on 07/03/2005 02:59:39 I have ~12k shield HP on scorp and still ~1300 recharge time with 3x extenders and only two tech1 pdu's + 3 hardeners, so anything less than that just aint good to me :) Your recharge time to HP ratio is not bad, but the absolute numbers are to small... ie it wont hold against BS or other hac... ____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..."
Mallik Hendrake	Posted - 2005.03.07 03:16:00 - [3] Would this fit? 5 malkuth heavies 2 large extenders, 2 shield recharger IIs, 1 Kinetic hardener 4 pdu II's -- Just pretend you'll only be fighting guristas, because fighting bloodraiders you'll be very upset at not having 2 EM hardeners anyway. Caldari navy agents ftw; declining blood raiders/mercenary missions also ftw.
KamiCrazy	Posted - 2005.03.07 03:21:00 - [4] Originally by: JoeSomebody Edited by: JoeSomebody on 07/03/2005 02:59:39 I have ~12k shield HP on scorp and still ~1300 recharge time with 3x extenders and only two tech1 pdu's + 3 hardeners, so anything less than that just aint good to me :) Your recharge time to HP ratio is not bad, but the absolute numbers are to small... ie it wont hold against BS or other hac... You only have 2 free mids and 2 free lows after that. If you put another tech 2 large extender on the cerb and then 2 PDU's as well (giving the same 2 free mids and 2 free lows.) You get approx 6K shields and 650ish recharge. Which is IMO better then your scorp :)
xenorx	Posted - 2005.03.09 20:29:00 - [5] What are you going to use the extra slots for in agent missions?
Daiken	Posted - 2005.03.09 21:46:00 - [6] Edited by: Daiken on 09/03/2005 21:47:15 Originally by: KamiCrazy A cerb has elite cruiser resistances. 80 therm, 70 kinetic, 60 explosive, 0 EMP. With 1 EMP hardner on the shields (an anointed will do), you can have every facet resistances covered pretty much. The only thing you should worry about is explosive missles and EMP heavy lasers. This saves slots in terms of hardners, instead of needing 2 or even 3 hardners, you only use 1, so the cerb compares well with its 5 mids vs the 6 slots of the dom or the 8 slots of the scorp. It effectively has 7 slots, if you consider taking a thermal hardner and a kinetic one. Sweet the Uglinix finally got a 6th med slot. ---------------------
Soren	Posted - 2005.03.09 21:54:00 - [7] How about a Gistii A-Type on the cerberus? _________________________________________________________
Gary Goat	Posted - 2005.03.09 22:12:00 - [8] What about shield recharge things in the lows? Would probably help a lot
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.03.10 06:55:00 - [9] Edited by: Pottsey on 10/03/2005 07:28:42 DonÆt forget about Escort Tactics for group work that gives a nice shield boost. The 2 shield implants are worth getting the best ones are a bit pricy but the cheap 3% to shield cap and 3% to shield recharge implants should be under 1 million. ô2 large extenders, 2 shield recharger IIs, 1 Kinetic hardener 4 pdu II'sö Forget about PDAÆs in the low slotÆs unless you need the powergrid. Stick in as many Shield Power Relays as you can. That gives a massive hitpoints per second boost over PDS modules. If reactor cap becomes a problem stick in 1 PDA over 1 shield relay. DonÆt use the mid slot shield recarger as 2 extra large shield extenders if they fit will give more hitpoints per second I think. Someone better double check that but on my Domi I needed 4 large shield extenders before shield recarger's become usefull. ôYou get approx 6K shields and 650ish recharge. Which is IMO better then your scorp :)ö ThatÆs pretty low its only 34.6 hitpoints per second. Which with your resistance means it only takes 70ish damage per second to break your tank with EM damage. A scorp can run at 100 to 150 per second. Then again with the implants and shield relays you should notice a large boost. EDIT: You have more then enough hitpoints per second for level 3 missions just unless you used ranged combat methods it seems to low for level 4. Let me know if you do managed to passive shield tank level 4 missions please. You should be able to do this even better you should not run out of cap and need to warp out like active shield tankers. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2005.03.10 08:13:00 - [10] Iv'e been trying a cerb and one thing ive found that works is large cap battery. I used : 5x heavy launchers DG Large booster 2x EM hard 2x Large Peroxide Capacitor battery 4x PDU 2's I found i could keep my cap up for a long long time and it tanks rly rly well. __ There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
KamiCrazy	Posted - 2005.03.10 09:36:00 - [11] THeres no point going the whole way with the cerb for passive tanking. The true strength of passive tanking the cerb is that you can also active tank it at the same time. With 6K shields and less then 600 sec recharge (if you max out the PDU's in the lows) you can also run a medium c5l shield booster for almost forever. Not to mention you have less then 1/3rd the sig radius of a battleship, and about 3-4 times the speed with an AB. And yes with decent skills you can run that forever as well (I have max navigation skills). You'll never catch anything since yuo have no scrambler, but thats just something you're going to have to live with, not that it matters vs NPC's because they don't run away. IMO low slot shield recharge modules are pathetic and not worth it in the slightest. Also the scorp is designed to be the ultimate shield tanker. Considering the cerb is a specialised missle CRUISER it does fairly well.
fras	Posted - 2005.03.10 11:43:00 - [12] Edited by: fras on 10/03/2005 11:52:14 I tried this stuff and it just didn't seem to work very well. I had a dom with 2xL extenders, 3x hardners then all 7 low slots with shield power relays. I can tell you the numbers looked better than on your cerb & I wasn't impressed. Maybe I set it up wrong or something. Anyways what ur talking about seems to look like a traditional shield tank. booster+extender+hardners+pdu's
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.03.10 17:17:00 - [13] Edited by: Pottsey on 10/03/2005 17:21:41 öIMO low slot shield recharge modules are pathetic and not worth it in the slightest.ö What makes you think that? They give more of a boost then PDS modules. Take my basic ship 1 T2 PDS = 9.25 hitpoints per second. 1 T1 Shield relay 10.1 hitpoints per second. 3 T2 PDS = 12.1 hitpoints per second. 3 T1 shield relays 15.75 hitpoints per second. Not only does the T1 shield relay beat the T2 PDS but one day we will get T2 shield relays and the T1 is far cheaper. ôWith 6K shields and less then 600 sec recharge (if you max out the PDU's in the lows) you can also run a medium c5l shield booster for almost forever.ö The c5l gives 30 hitpoints per second extra. WouldnÆt shield relays give more then that? If you have time can you give fit max shield relays in the low slots, scarping the PDS modules then tell us your shield cap and shield recharge along with scarping the booster for another shield extender. I donÆt have the ship to test with so I could be wrong, its just I have never seen a case where an active shield booster was with a passive setup was better then a full active or full passive setup. All the hybrid setups I have seen lose out. What I like to do is work out my cap drain. Fit just enough PDSÆs to cover the cap drain then in the rest of the slots fit shield relays. If you take the shield booster out you can fit another shield extender or shield hardener without losing any hitpoints per second. I just dont see the point in useing max PDS's modules unless you need the powergrid. ôtried this stuff and it just didn't seem to work very well.ö Did you let the shield drop low? A lot of people see the first 20% of the shields drop fast, panic and warp out thinking there tank will fail. Try to forget about the first 20% they should go fast the shields more then triple in strength as they drop. Around about 20 to 40% is the sweat spot. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
Mallik Hendrake	Posted - 2005.03.10 17:32:00 - [14] Honestly I think the combined tank PDS + active tanking is the best way to do things for L4 missions. It gives you a backup boost and so forth without requiring sacrificing any active tanking, which I really appreciate. The Cerb should do this nicely. With my raven, with fairly poor skills, I've got a 6700 shield cap with an 1100 recharge time - which gets me ~20 shield a second in the happy spot. This is enough for almost all missions (l4 included, w/4 hardeners), ,and if it goes below 30% or so I pop the booster a few times. With good skills and two shield charging implants, it'd probably be way better :) For l3 missions, passive works fine, as you rarely have to deal with a lot of damage coming in at once. But then again l3 in a bat
Garramon	Posted - 2005.03.10 18:44:00 - [15] I tested passive tanking the Cerberus a bit ago, and it didnt do as well as I hoped. I am gonna give it another go though. Let's for the sake of argument, pretend were not fighting EM damage, as suggested above. Results coming soon! ------------------------------------------------
Garramon	Posted - 2005.03.10 19:46:00 - [16] Edited by: Garramon on 10/03/2005 19:46:30 Ok Here was my setup H: 5x Arbalest Launchers M: 2x Large Shield Extender II's 2x Shield Recharger II's 1x Active Named Kinetic Hardener L: 3x PDU 2 1x Type-D Shield Power Relay Stats: -------------------- CPU: 541.5 / 550 Power: 902.5 / 918.86 Shield: 6113 S Recharge: 332 Capacitor: 1229 C Recharge: 207 85% Kinetic 80% Thermal Results" -------------------- Pleasantly surprised this time I sat still and tanked a Guardian Enforcer (BS) + 3x Guardian Captains (Cruisers) for 15min without my tank ever breaking before I got bored. Edit: Oh yea, I used the active hardener because I figured I may as well use that cap for something, had plenty of recharge still. The pdus were required to fit it all. ------------------------------------------------
Garramon	Posted - 2005.03.10 20:05:00 - [17] Second Test: 1x Guardian Commodore 2x Guradian Executors Strategy, use passive tanking as above, orbit the commodore at 1km. Results: Shields never dropped below 70% Strategy, use passive tanking as above, fly in a straight line towards warp out object. Results: Shields hovered at 33%. After 3 minutes I was out of their range at shields recharged. Strategy, use passive tanking as above, sit still. Results: Tank broken after 4 minutes, Run away! ------------------------------------------------
xenorx	Posted - 2005.03.10 21:06:00 - [18] Has anyone seen or know of a source for Shield power relay II's? Are they out yet? I have a passive shield tank worked out on paper that looks fantastic. I just cant find those low slot T2 mods to make it work.
Buddrow	Posted - 2005.03.10 22:09:00 - [19] im getting my cerb soon, so im real intersted in this thread, anyone wanting to do some testing contact me. ---------------------------------- "Give me but one firm spot on which to stand, and I will move earth." Archimedes c.287 - 212 BC
Spuki	Posted - 2005.03.10 22:18:00 - [20] I will never understand whats the big advantage of only passive tanking. Why dont you also make use of your cap recharge rate with an active booster?
KamiCrazy	Posted - 2005.03.10 22:55:00 - [21] Pottsey, you are making the mistake of thinking that the cerb is equal to a battleship. That is causing a few errors in your judgement. Firstly you need PDU's, you can't fit the large shield extenders without them at 300mw each with shield upgrades 5, its hefty considering the base of the cerb is only 635 before skills. Large shield extenders are an oversize module for it. I originally got the idea from my experience of fitting 1600mm plating on thorax's. If thorax's could do it, why couldn't the cerb? And it seems yes it can. It is not practical to fit more then 2 large shield extenders this way. Considering the 3rd midslot is always going to be a hardner of some sort (EMP/Kin/Expl) that leaves you with 2 mids and 1 low. Now you can put shield rechargers on the mids, if you choose to. But IMO its more worth it to put a active shield booster. The cerb is a missle boat, it doesn't use its cap in launching missles so there may as well be some use for it. For the last slots well it all comes down to taste. I would prefer another PDU and an AB, but thats because I like speed in my cruisers. THe poster above me has shown that the cerb can passively shield tank quite well. As long as its using its other strengths, which is its low sig radius and high transversal speed.
Elemmakil	Posted - 2005.03.11 00:10:00 - [22] Edited by: Elemmakil on 11/03/2005 00:12:05 Edited by: Elemmakil on 11/03/2005 00:11:25 Originally by: Daiken Edited by: Daiken on 09/03/2005 21:47:15 Originally by: KamiCrazy A cerb has elite cruiser resistances. 80 therm, 70 kinetic, 60 explosive, 0 EMP. With 1 EMP hardner on the shields (an anointed will do), you can have every facet resistances covered pretty much. The only thing you should worry about is explosive missles and EMP heavy lasers. This saves slots in terms of hardners, instead of needing 2 or even 3 hardners, you only use 1, so the cerb compares well with its 5 mids vs the 6 slots of the dom or the 8 slots of the scorp. It effectively has 7 slots, if you consider taking a thermal hardner and a kinetic one. Sweet the Uglinix finally got a 6th med slot. I think you beat the domi in terms of ugliness BY FAR!
Pottsey	Posted - 2005.03.11 07:24:00 - [23] Edited by: Pottsey on 11/03/2005 07:28:44 ôI will never understand whats the big advantage of only passive tanking. Why dont you also make use of your cap recharge rate with an active booster?ö The passive tank modules that give the biggest hitpoints boost kill your cap recharge making boosters impossible to run for long amounts of time. On lots of ships its best to scarp the booster stick in an extra hardener or shield extender then use the more powerful low slot shield relays. It does depend on the ship but the amount of hitpoints you lose by swapping from shield relays to PDS to run a shield booster is less then what you get from the shield booster. ôIt is not practical to fit more then 2 large shield extenders this way.ö So its powergrid. That explains it why you like the PDS more. I bet you cannot wait for Shield relays IIÆs then more powergrid then a PDS and more hitpoints. Shame they are not out yet. Have you tried mid shield extenders, perhaps 1 large extender and shield relays? I sometime wish I could fly all the ships there are so many setups I want to try just for 5 to 10 minuets. _________________________________________________ Gallente defensive innovation comes from unexpected source.
fras	Posted - 2005.03.11 10:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Pottsey ôtried this stuff and it just didn't seem to work very well.ö Did you let the shield drop low? A lot of people see the first 20% of the shields drop fast, panic and warp out thinking there tank will fail. Try to forget about the first 20% they should go fast the shields more then triple in strength as they drop. Around about 20 to 40% is the sweat spot. yeah it was on the test server, I died, heh I tried a setup after though which was actually really good I was quite chuffed. 5x heavy nos, 1x medium nos XL C5L, L shield extender, 3x hardner 7x shield power relay. combination of active and passive repairing was uber - drones for offence. Not something i'd run on TQ as it doesn't tackle or go very fast. Was a fun tank though.
xenorx	Posted - 2005.03.11 13:56:00 - [25] ôIt is not practical to fit more then 2 large shield extenders this way.ö So its powergrid. That explains it why you like the PDS more. I bet you cannot wait for Shield relays IIÆs then more powergrid then a PDS and more hitpoints. Shame they are not out yet. Damn! So that is why I cannot find the sheild relay II's anyplace. With the +10% to power grid it would make fitting the 2 large extender II's easy on the Cerb.

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