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Nyxus	Posted - 2005.03.09 16:55:00 - [1] I think it is a common sense to assert that EVERYONE would like to see more mixed fleets. As it stands, I see Inty's and BS's during fleet combat. Inty's because speed grants well nigh invulnerability, and BS's as heavy ganking platforms. Cruisers don't come to combat becuase Elite frigs kill them from speed/range easily. If the friggies don't get them, the bs weapons bbq them from range in no time at all. Battlecruisers? Well, a poor man's BS. Thats about it. I have thought long and hard on how to make cruisers/battlecruiser more usefull. How to balance large weapons so that they don't insta-kill (never fun) anything smaller than themselves that travel slower than 2800m/s. The only viable answer I have come to is this: NERF ALL DAMAGE ACROSS SHIPTYPES Battleships firing on cruisers take a 50% damage reduction (maybe more). Battleships firing on frigs take a 75% penalty. On the other hand, Inty's firing on Battleships take a 75% reduction in damage. Elite frigs firing on cruisers take a 50% reduction in damage. BC's being a "middle of the road" do full damage on BS's, but get the damage reduction that cruisers get to give them a niche (remember that they are pocket battleships but only use cruiser weapons). The numbers are just theoretical and need to be adjusted. But the overall idea is to reduce damage between shipclasses so that ALL classes are needed and have a lifespan on the battlefield of more than the 7 seconds it takes for a BS to target them. I also believe that if this was implemented then you could increase BS tracking back up (because hitting for small amounts is better than missing over and over and getting a lucky hit for a huge amount) and grant cruisers a higher base speed and giant agility boost. They should be partway in between frigs and BS's and they are not. This also counteracts the 3 inty squads killing BS's with T2 weapons so easily and with impunity. A frig is 1/1000 the mass of a BS. It should be a mosquito, bothersome but not lethal. The elite frig shouldn't be omgwtfpwned by the BS, but neither should an invulnerable frig be killing the battleship either. I don't see any other method to bring cruisers back to being a useful ship. If I did I would suggest it. With the implementation of this idea, all ships live a bit longer (which is better) and have a place on the battlefield. Nyxus
Ryy Kishin	Posted - 2005.03.09 17:01:00 - [2] I say we Nerf all the whiners and Play EVE! Live Hard Die Young Leave A Good Looking Corpse!
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.09 17:03:00 - [3] In fleet battles 99% of the kills come without warp disruption. With nerfed damage (or the increase in hp), Noone would die in fleet battles: Just fit 2 BS out of 30 for pure Anti Frig and your entire fleet is safe. Dont do it. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
Toran Mehtar	Posted - 2005.03.09 17:05:00 - [4] Edited by: Toran Mehtar on 09/03/2005 17:05:24 Anybody else remember the huge changes to tracking calcs that were supposed to do just this ? Considering that we're still finishing off balancing those changes (projectile boost, pulse nerf), I think I'll pass on another big overhaul for now thanks.
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.09 17:32:00 - [5] You see intys in fleets? Nice! Can I come over your house sometime? My other friends only use battleships.
Tribunal	Posted - 2005.03.09 17:35:00 - [6] This is something that will need to wait until the ship hp patch is put in the game.
Sorja	Posted - 2005.03.09 17:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Lallante In fleet battles 99% of the kills come without warp disruption. With nerfed damage (or the increase in hp), Noone would die in fleet battles: Just fit 2 BS out of 30 for pure Anti Frig and your entire fleet is safe. I think you prove the guy's point Lallante. Damage is so high at the moment that there's no point bringing anything but battleships in fleets, which is very very very bad, IMHO. Like it is bad that you can fit a BS for anti-frig: it's not their role, BSs are not meant to be jacks of all trades. As a tackler, I'd like to go take my chances inside the ennemy fleet and actually tackle the primary, fearing mostly from assault frigates and cruisers, not heavy NOS, missiles or drones. As a cruiser pilot, I'd like to have something to do besides fitting a full rack of multispec on a BB or Moa (and I'm Caldari, not all cruisers can even do that). As a BS pilot I'd like to fear something else than lag and lasers. An approach to this problem would be to remove the opportunity of stacking damage mods, like stacking of speed boosts was removed because it was bad for game balance. Improving cruisers is a must too, the first obvious step being a reduction in mass, and so a boost in agility and speed. And better speed boosts too, since I can MWD all day in any frig, while cruiser size MWDs eat the cap fast and make them go from slow to sluggish. I'm really tired of fleet fights as they stand now.
Lallante	Posted - 2005.03.09 18:10:00 - [8] Well the rest of us arnt. Fleet battles work well as it is. You still havnt answered my point; Noone will die in fleet battles. Lall - THE Vocal Minority - ShinRa
xenorx	Posted - 2005.03.09 19:50:00 - [9] (Sarcasum on) I get so tired of nerf this and nerf that! Oh well if I cant beat the nerfers I might as well join them. I propose they nerf all ship classes out of the game. Lets all just fly noob ships. I would also like to see all weapon types removed from the game and replaced by spit ball launchers. Of course for diversity sake we will need new damage types to go with our spit ball launchers so I propose the following three damage types. 1. Dirty Looks 2. Harsh language 3. Hand gestures. Oh and for a replacement to EW mods perhaps we could get specialized skill sets in forum *****age? (Sarcasum off)
mahhy	Posted - 2005.03.09 20:00:00 - [10] For once I sorta agree with Lallante. It has nothing to do with damage output of either the most gimped ship or most gank'a ship. It simple numbers. Reduce damage however you like, but when you get 30+ BS's firing at you, you die. No reduction in damage will fix that. Increase defense, decrease offense, none of it matters. Fleet fights will always be a type of gank due to sheer volume of weapons trained on you.
The Cosmopolite	Posted - 2005.03.09 20:09:00 - [11] A form of this already exists: it's called tracking. I will never accept the argument that a BS grade gunshot that succeeds in hitting a frigate should do less damage than a BS grade gunshot that succeeds in hitting a BS. It's just nonsense. The Cos The Star Fraction - Executor CEO: Jade Constantine
Chuck Sausage	Posted - 2005.03.11 13:21:00 - [12] Originally by: xenorx Lets all just fly noob ships. Yes!!!
Decuba	Posted - 2005.03.11 13:28:00 - [13] I hafto agree in some way, Battleship should have really hard time hitting frigs and ceptors, frigs should have easy time hitting all, Cruise show be able to hit both, noobsships should remain worthless :D
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.03.11 13:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Tribunal This is something that will need to wait until the ship hp patch is put in the game. This IS the HP patch under another guise. NO TO DAMAGE NERFS/HP INCREASES /Agree Lalante "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Matthew	Posted - 2005.03.11 15:57:00 - [15] Originally by: The Cosmopolite A form of this already exists: it's called tracking. I will never accept the argument that a BS grade gunshot that succeeds in hitting a frigate should do less damage than a BS grade gunshot that succeeds in hitting a BS. It's just nonsense. The Cos ok, lets see if I can open your mind a bit on this one. You have your big-ass gun firing very large shots. Now, how do these shots kill? Well, it could be via a direct kinetic kill. Here we could go into all sorts of nasty collision physics, but what it would boil down to is that the small target has a better ability to "roll with the punch", and only get a glancing blow, rather than the full force of the collision. Maybe instead it does it's damage by detonating (torps, explosive shells etc) Now we get into nasty physics of energy radiation and absorption - which basically boils down to energy absorbed (and thus damage) is proportional to the area of the item absorbing. Of course, the strength of the argument does vary between weapon types, and is bringing entirely too much real-life into the debate. At the end of the day, if it makes the gameplay much better at the expense of a minor suspension of disbelief, then I'm all for it.
Kayosoni	Posted - 2005.03.11 16:20:00 - [16] Lallanete, Fleet battles are currently **e because of this instant-kill bull**. PVP with insta-uber-damage is NOT fun. It requires no tactical finesse like it used to. Oh let's all hop in our armageddons with 7 mega pulse laser 2 and WE WIN! yea. real fun. ----------------------------------- Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server
siim	Posted - 2005.03.11 16:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Kayosoni Lallanete, Fleet battles are currently **e because of this instant-kill bull**. PVP with insta-uber-damage is NOT fun. It requires no tactical finesse like it used to. Oh let's all hop in our armageddons with 7 mega pulse laser 2 and WE WIN! yea. real fun. I agree but I like my geddon
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.03.11 16:43:00 - [18] Edited by: Bad''Boy on 11/03/2005 16:43:32 no B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Kashre	Posted - 2005.03.11 16:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Kayosoni Lallanete, Fleet battles are currently **e because of this instant-kill bull**. PVP with insta-uber-damage is NOT fun. It requires no tactical finesse like it used to. Oh let's all hop in our armageddons with 7 mega pulse laser 2 and WE WIN! yea. real fun. If you nerf damage though you just increse the number of ships needed to arrive at a critical amount of damage in a really short time... There is no way around the fact that in a fleet, eventually you get enough ships that if they all shoot the same target it dies in a mere volley or two, tank or no tank. On the other hand, nerfing damage or increasing HP is going to serious screw up the 1 on 1 or small skermish scenarios. But I dont think that was the intention of the original poster... his suggestions dont reduce the amount of damage BS do to each other, just frigs and cruisers. As far as that goes, I dont think there's a problem with frigs, excecpt for the nos/missile thing. Cruisers could stand to be harder for BS weapons to hit though, perhaps. Even still though, fleet battles will hinge on who has the most firepower and frigs arent going to have a place in any fight thats over a certain number of BS per side, unfortuneatly, cause its all about the firepower. +++ It's called "low security space" for a reason.
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.03.11 18:49:00 - [20] well the idea is not that bad... anyway... what really bothers me is the fact that in the end its just a dot race again... you either do enough dot to overcome his tank or not... it should be proportional... like more dot means less time to kill someone... and less dot means more time to kill someone... right now it works like more dot means you CAN actually kill your target while less dot means you will never ever be able to kill your target conclusion: nerf armor reps and shield boosters while you really really boost hps Greetings Grim
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2005.03.11 18:58:00 - [21] Edited by: Shamis Orzoz on 11/03/2005 19:01:43 Originally by: Lallante In fleet battles 99% of the kills come without warp disruption. With nerfed damage (or the increase in hp), Noone would die in fleet battles: Just fit 2 BS out of 30 for pure Anti Frig and your entire fleet is safe. Dont do it. If the damage was nerfed a bit then battleships wouldn't all have to fight at 100km while aligned to warp out the whole time...you could actually have the occasional blasterthron or tanked apoc that could move in for a scramble. And you could use cruisers every once in a while, and frigates wouldn't get roasted in 1 shot like they do now so people would bring more tacklers. The original poster wants to see mixed fleets, and I agree with him. There is no reason to have a mixed fleet if every battleship that you lock goes down in under 3 seconds, every frigate either gets sniped from long range, or pooned by a high speed cruise missle....and cruisers are fodder. I do think that CCP has realized this though, which is why they intend to increase ship hitpoints, but i have no idea if it will be enough to fix this. But the really good news is that once the new EW changes are in, frig tacklers won't be very useful anymore so mixed fleets won't be used regardless of what they do with hitpoints.../emote shakes fist at CCP Shamis
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.11 20:12:00 - [22] I think that they need to make short ranged turrets do 50% more damage than now, and medium range 25% more.
Kayosoni	Posted - 2005.03.11 20:13:00 - [23] We had mixed fleets mid-castor back when you could dualMWD and you didn't do as much damage as you did in beta (15 second to kill 1 BS) dualMWD or something to it's effect needs to be brought back :/ ----------------------------------- Currently Playing Lineage 2 - Erica Server
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.11 20:16:00 - [24] no, dual mwd was highly unbalanced. They need to do something else, to make cruisers worthwhile, and also close-range BS other than the torpraven.
Nyxus	Posted - 2005.03.11 20:54:00 - [25] I will concede the fact that in "Blob Wars" [insert movie theme here] the group that fields the most BS turrets wins. X number of people firing on 1 person where X>5 pretty much spells instadeath no matter how good your tank is. I don't like it, but don't think there is a way to change it. However, in small group to small fleet battles there is much room for improvement. In these groups all I see are BS's because they wtfpwn anything smaller than them combined with suicidal inty tacklers as the inties are immune to large turret fire because of tracking/transversal. The only cruiser I routinely see is a BB, and it only survives because most of the time it is far enough away not to be a convenient target. Why is it no one brings a cruiser? Well no one likes to die 25 seconds into a fight. They can't avoid fire, and pop so easily that they are always the first to be targeted. Even multiple cruisers firing on a BS can't normally kill it fast enough to bring it down. 1 decent BS will blow them into constituent atoms in short order. Stupidly enough, a gang of inties are a greater threat to a bs than a group of cruisers. I recently fought a "Heavy Assault Cruiser" in my Apoc. Thes is the biggest, nastiest cruisers there are. My Apoc was NOT fitted for damage. Total fight time from the time he opened fire to the time he popped from my Cruise Missle: 50 seconds. And he barely got through my shields and was just kissing my armor. This was a long fight by normal standards. The odds of him killing me were pretty much nill before I whacked him. In a damage setup, he would have gone down even faster. My point being, if I wasn't doing battleship class damage to a cruiser sized vessel he would have had more time to do something. Maybe even come a little closer to winning. Even "pocket battleships", the Battlecruisers, fare no better. 30 seconds to kill a Prophecy, tops. And it's the heavy tank of the bunch. The facts are simple. No one likes to die in 20 seconds. All cruisers die in 20 seconds. By reducing damage between shipclasses it leaves inter class balance as it is, and allows smaller shipclasses to survive a bit longer. Maybe you need to bring some cruisers to a fight in order to fight the enemy cruisers. By allowing cruisers to be able to hit frigs and Battleships it gives them a new niche. Thier current niche is to provide easy kill mails to the first bs to target them. This also allows newer players to get into pvp faster (a GOOD thing). As it stands, I tell new folks to either get an inty or wait till they can fly a bs reasonably well (6months of training). Sorja, while we differ on many opinions, can attest that Cruisers are worthless as they stand as they just die WAY too fast. Getting new people into the fun part of Eve (pvp) faster is necessary for long term subscription growth. I have had several friends try the game, only to quit because they cant DO anything to help in battle for almost half a year. It's just not worht it to them. And I can't say they are wrong. I don't think adding hp's to ships will have the intended effect. We want fights to last longer, and see mixed fleets. This will accomplish that. No one likes change, and I like to bbq cruisers too, but I am willing to look beyond my immediate needs and grasp the fact that overall game balance and ship class usefullness is more important than that. Nyxus
Selim	Posted - 2005.03.11 21:04:00 - [26] Edited by: Selim on 11/03/2005 21:05:26 Cruisers would be fine if battleships were rare, and resources were limited. Because then we'd see mostly cruisers and the occasional battleship, and battleships SHOULD kill cruisers easily then, because they are rare and hard to get etc. In the age of dreadnaughts, the only thing limiting nations to build fleets entirely of battleships and dreadnaughts, was lack of resources, logistical problems, and such. So they made smaller ships like cruisers to fill the gaps and serve as quicker alternatives th BBs, ideal for escort duties. There is no such problems in EVE. And the loss of a battleship is does not hurt at all. It should hurt tremendously.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.03.11 21:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Selim no, dual mwd was highly unbalanced. They need to do something else, to make cruisers worthwhile, and also close-range BS other than the torpraven. No mystery for why cruisers are mostly suck. It's in the math. Cruisers are 62% more agile then battleships while frigates are 300%+ (don't have the exact figure here) more agile then cruisers. Cruiser HP/Cap/ECT ECT is between frig-bs stats, so why isn't agility the same? It'll probably get fixed some day when more cruiser pilots ***** about. As for now, people are happy in battleships and frigates. ________________________________________________________
Grut	Posted - 2005.03.11 23:44:00 - [28] rather then uping hp id prefer to make it take 1/2 a second to warpout a bs if its aligned and upto speed ie double click and your gone unlike atm when it takes 20 secs dealing with lagged up menus by which time your toast. IMO if your not a n00b and your not scrambled you should have a damn good chance of warping out no matter how many people target you. That way scrambling the primary actually means something. ofc missiles/bs turrets need a nerf, currently bs bbq support far to effectively for them to be of any use. Mostly harmless
Hyey	Posted - 2005.03.12 00:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Selim Edited by: Selim on 11/03/2005 21:05:26 Cruisers would be fine if battleships were rare, and resources were limited. Because then we'd see mostly cruisers and the occasional battleship, and battleships SHOULD kill cruisers easily then, because they are rare and hard to get etc. In the age of dreadnaughts, the only thing limiting nations to build fleets entirely of battleships and dreadnaughts, was lack of resources, logistical problems, and such. So they made smaller ships like cruisers to fill the gaps and serve as quicker alternatives th BBs, ideal for escort duties. There is no such problems in EVE. And the loss of a battleship is does not hurt at all. It should hurt tremendously. He hit the nail on the head. If we take in all the fighting you have ever seen in your life naval wise, or space wise or whatever the mainstay of a fleet was never the biggest type of ship, it was the cruiser class. In those situations the monetary loss of a battleship and the obtainability made it economically inefficient to have large amounts of them. Cruisers where the main type of ship while battleship type classes provided heavy gun support for that extra "umph". In eve, we do not have that problem. In alot of fleet battles the total loss a person incures for a battleship death is about 40-50mio (considering most use stock equip with occasional tech 2 mod in those cases + insurance cost.) Most anyone flying a battleship into a hostile situation like that can make 40-50million in about 2-3 hours of gameplay. It should be CRIPPLING to lose a large amount of battleships, not a little sting to isk that it now is. ~~ Hyey I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
Shayla Sh'inlux	Posted - 2005.03.12 00:18:00 - [30] So we remove insurance from battleships. Not even 40% standard payout. Zero. This may have some totally unexpected effects on the market for both minerals and battleships. It would also shy newer players away from battleships, which is good, since battleships are not something you should be piloting into lvl 4 missions with under a million skillpoints. And yet, I see players under two months old flying Ravens in Rens, Niyabanen, Jita and Oursulaert every day. Also, CCP could fairly easy triple the construction cost of a battleship. Having built battleships for months, I know minerals are already a pain to come by in the first place. Tripling the amount required would put a LOT of weight on the bs market. If insurance payout is 200mil under the cost of the ship, losing one WOULD be crippling. 200m is a LOT of money for a LOT of people. ------------------------------------------------------- "Do you really think that's air you're breathing?"

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