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In the air, faster than in a vacuum?

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Ciboronika Emperor Systems 0	Posted - 2012.10.09 02:27:00 - [1] - Quote In the air, faster than in a vacuum? My shuttle is traveling at 500 ms... Meanwhile on planet earth ... NASA has been officially recognized for setting the speed record for a jet-powered aircraft by Guinness World Records. NASA set the record in November during the third and final flight of the experimental X-43A scramjet (supersonic-combustion ramjet) project. The X-43A demonstrated an advanced form of air-breathing jet engine could power an aircraft nearly 10 times the speed of sound. Data from the unpiloted, 12-foot-long research vehicle show its revolutionary engine worked successfully at Mach 9.6 (approximately 7,000 mph), as it flew over the Pacific Ocean west of California. The flight was the culmination of NASA's Hyper-X Program. Hyper-X, a seven-year, approximately $230 million ground and flight test program, explored alternatives to rocket power for space access vehicles. This is the second world speed record earned by the Hyper-X Program. The first followed a Mach 6.8 (approximately 5,000 mph) flight in March 2004. Both records will be featured in the 2006 edition of the Guinness World Records book published in September 2005. The fastest air-breathing, manned vehicle, the SR-71, achieved slightly more than Mach 3.2. The X-43A more than tripled the top speed of the jet-powered SR-71. NASA is interested in supersonic combustion scramjet technology, because the engines get their oxygen from the atmosphere. That allows for more airplane-like operations for increased affordability, flexibility and safety in ultra-high-speed flights and for the first stage to Earth orbit. Once a scramjet-powered vehicle is accelerated to approximately Mach 4 by a conventional jet engine or booster rocket, it can fly at hypersonic speeds, possibly as fast as Mach 15, without carrying heavy oxidizer, as rockets must. A ramjet operates by subsonic combustion of fuel in a stream of air compressed by the forward speed of the aircraft. In a regular jet engine, fan blades compress the air. In a scramjet, the airflow through the whole engine remains supersonic. The Guinness World Record certificate: "On 16 November, 2004, NASA's unmanned Hyper-X (X-43A) aircraft reached Mach 9.6. The X-43A was boosted to an altitude of 33,223 meters (109,000 feet) by a Pegasus rocket launched from beneath a B52-B jet aircraft. The revolutionary 'scramjet' aircraft then burned its engine for around 10 seconds during its flight over the Pacific Ocean." Related flight records: The previous record for an air-breathing vehicle, but not an airplane, was held by a ramjet-powered missile, which achieved slightly more than Mach 5. The highest speed attained by a rocket-powered airplane, NASA's X-15, was Mach 6.7. The Hyper-X program was conducted by NASA's Aeronautics Research Mission Directorate with the agency's Langley Research Center, Hampton, Va. Langley was lead NASA center with responsibility for hypersonic technology development. The NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, Calif., is responsible for flight research and testing. source: http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2005/jun/HQ_05_156_X43A_Guinness.html 9.6 Ma = 3264 ms-1
Marcus Gideon Federal Defense Operations Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub 37	Posted - 2012.10.09 02:36:00 - [2] - Quote A shuttle is one of the most basic craft in the game. In fact, it is the most basic, since a Pod doesn't really count as a craft. Every single vehicle you just mentioned, was using some sort of engine modification to go fast. That's what we in Eve call Propulsion Modules. They come in 2 flavors, Afterburners and Micro Warp Drives. And a simple frigate, fitted for speed (mwd, nanos, aux thrust rigs) is going to cruise along at about 4-5km/s You're complaining that the Eve version of a riding lawn mower, isn't a Formula One qualifier. BTW, 5km/s = 11,184mph or roughly twice your fastest example.
Ireland VonVicious Vicious Trading Company Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects 66	Posted - 2012.10.09 03:19:00 - [3] - Quote You seem to be confused about per second speed v.s. per hour speed.
Marcus Gideon Federal Defense Operations Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub 37	Posted - 2012.10.09 03:44:00 - [4] - Quote Ireland VonVicious wrote: You seem to be confused about per second speed v.s. per hour speed. Them, or me? Just rechecked my math...
Gorn Arming Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 78	Posted - 2012.10.09 05:51:00 - [5] - Quote Sublight speeds in EVE are unrealistically low while accelerations are unrealistically high. Old news. Canonically, it's explained via some warp drive mumbo-jumbo that no one cares about because this is not a flight simulator.
Nihi Lismus Chaos From Order Manifest Destiny. 83	Posted - 2012.10.09 06:33:00 - [6] - Quote Lets say it that way: a shuttle is that good old Ford whatever, that brings you from A to B. It don't have to be the fastest thing in the universe. It just does what it have to do. a frigate with AB is that juicy Lambo, a lot mor speed, a lot more fun a frigate with MWD is just like a usual airplane... well.. at least for traveling the warpspeed and the alignetime does matter more then the sublight-speed, but i need some examples and a Dramiel with a MWD is just laughing at the X43-a, while let it breath the Dramiels exhausts. btw: you'er also one of that type of player, that mention, that the femal armors in fantasy MMOs doesn't protect anything?
Barrogh Habalu Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 19	Posted - 2012.10.09 10:00:00 - [7] - Quote I think this should explain fluffy part, just in case you care (refer to links on that page if that's not enough): Wiki on interstellar travel and such Also indeed, old news is very old. Just reminds me how everyone hates using search function or Googling, including myself.
Nihi Lismus Chaos From Order Manifest Destiny. 85	Posted - 2012.10.09 13:12:00 - [8] - Quote BTW, we're not in a vacuum, or in the air. We're "flying" in a liquid environment
Nex apparatu5 Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 349	Posted - 2012.10.09 19:14:00 - [9] - Quote shuttles can also travel 6 au/s. Let's see you do that in atmosphere.
Reticle Sight Picture 45	Posted - 2012.10.09 19:54:00 - [10] - Quote The answer is contained in the press release: "NASA is interested in supersonic combustion scramjet technology, because the engines get their oxygen from the atmosphere. That allows for more airplane-like operations for increased affordability, flexibility and safety in ultra-high-speed flights and for the first stage to Earth orbit. Once a scramjet-powered vehicle is accelerated to approximately Mach 4 by a conventional jet engine or booster rocket, it can fly at hypersonic speeds, possibly as fast as Mach 15, without carrying heavy oxidizer, as rockets must. " Short, earth-bound flights are one thing, extended space flight is another. I always assumed that eve ships were using some form of ion drive.

Mars Theran Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2012.10.10 03:24:00 - [11] - Quote ~3129 m/s That's the speed it was traveling at to tl;dr all that. Unlike mentioned in a previous post, this ship isn't traveling with propulsion mods. There is no MWD or 'After Burner' present here. The ship is designed to do that speed and isn't even remotely moddable. It is what it is and changes would be incorporated in design after testing, and result in developing a new craft. Putting a V8 in a Miata is modding. This particular craft, as designed probably doesn't even have the capability of doing anything but what it was doing. It is simple a testing platform for a technology that relies heavily on the design of the craft itself. Forcing air at supersonic speeds into an engine would require some serious aerodynamics. Not saying it can't be used elsewhere, but its effectiveness will change and it may lose or gain efficiency and speed depending on the application. Think of an Intercooler and Turbocharger on a car engine. This is a mod yes, but it is similar in principle, with the primary exception that the whole of the craft is incorporated into the design, rather than just something under the hood. This is why I say it doesn't have any relation to propulsion mods. There is no way you could fit this to another craft and successfully do the same thing. What would happen, is you'd end up not having the available oxygen under pressure, traveling at supersonic speeds to provide the burn for the engines. You also wouldn't have the fans, (actually more like a turbocharger which relies on them), to force the air in, so you'd be flying on rocket power for as long as the fuel was available. The other reason you wouldn't see much benefit, is because your craft wouldn't be slipping through the air like this one does, due to not having turbulence reduction with a high flow of air through the craft, rather than around it. It must be one heck of a design to be honest, when you think of all that must be incorporated into it. Slipping is like downforce on an F1 racer in this case, but where the limited space under the car provides the aerodynamics and speed due to low pressure below changing the way the air resistance effects the vehicle, the Scramjet has higher pressure below, (as all aircraft), and lower above, and both of these will be reduced by the air flowing through at higher pressures. You're essentially taking the air providing resistance ahead of you and slipping it through your vehicle instead of slipping your vehicle through it. Both actually, but more of one than the other as you increase in velocity. Quite interesting. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Mars Theran Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2012.10.10 03:32:00 - [12] - Quote Also: Quote: Length Space Shuttle: 56.14 meters (184.2 feet) Orbiter: 37.23 meters (122.17 feet) Height Orbiter on runway: 17.27 meters (56.67 feet) Wingspan 23.79 meters (78.06 feet) Weight * At liftoff: 2,041,166 kilograms (4.5 million pounds) End of mission: 104,326 kilograms (230,000 pounds) Maximum cargo to orbit 28,803 kilograms (63,500 pounds) SRB Separation Two minutes after launch External Tank Separation 8.5 minutes after launch Altitude: 109.26 kilometers (59 nautical miles) Velocity: 28,067 kph (17,440 mph) Orbit 185 to 643 kilometers (115 to 400 statute miles) Velocity: 27,875 kph (17,321 mph) * weight will vary depending on payloads and on board consumables. ~7743 m/s orbital velocity, and that's just the shuttle. You can confirm that it actually reaches higher speeds achieving orbit. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Dietrich III Havoc Violence and Chaos BricK sQuAD. 5	Posted - 2012.10.10 04:08:00 - [13] - Quote This is also a GAME. It wouldn't be very fun to try PVP-ing with true Newtonian physics making it incredibly hard to turn anywhere and get a vector on your target. Well, maybe it would but it's not going to happen now because that would require a complete revamp of code and gameplay in an unnecessary direction. And if our ships really did reach closing speeds of 50,000 mph or more you would have quite a tough time staying in range for your guns to do anything, let alone track. Gameplay > Realism
Mars Theran Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic 346	Posted - 2012.10.10 06:52:00 - [14] - Quote Dietrich III wrote: This is also a GAME. It wouldn't be very fun to try PVP-ing with true Newtonian physics making it incredibly hard to turn anywhere and get a vector on your target. Well, maybe it would but it's not going to happen now because that would require a complete revamp of code and gameplay in an unnecessary direction. And if our ships really did reach closing speeds of 50,000 mph or more you would have quite a tough time staying in range for your guns to do anything, let alone track. Gameplay > Realism Not quite sure where that came from, but I didn't read anything in the OP that warranted it. This is Out of Pod Experience isn't it. Also, the ships in the game, (yeah, I'm going there), already do 5k m/s in combat and track well enough considering. Call anything less than that tactical velocity. I'm sure if someone was piloting this thing, they'd have a bit of trouble lining up there targets too. Not that a computer could calculate it out in a fraction of a second, well in advance, then fire at a specific time. Of course, given practice, a human can do the same just based on visual cues. They'd have to be pretty on the ball for that speed though, and a good distance off at the right angle of approach. Anyway, moot point. This thread is about Scramjets. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Ooda Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens 20	Posted - 2012.10.10 18:14:00 - [15] - Quote Hilarious that ppl are still trying to compare rl physics to eve physics, roflmao?
Flurk Hellbron Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 107	Posted - 2012.10.10 18:39:00 - [16] - Quote Not to mention we don't have to use joysticks and rudder pedals to "fly" our "ships".....
Renier Gaden Exanimo Inc Anger Management. 17	Posted - 2012.10.10 18:55:00 - [17] - Quote Dude! ItGÇÖs a DRONE. Why are you comparing it to a shuttle?
CorInaXeraL Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz 238	Posted - 2012.10.10 19:10:00 - [18] - Quote Posting in a "my internet spaceships is not real spaceships" thread? Things like this are, unfortunately, relatively trivial in EVE. Kinda like pointing out your 1400mm Howitzer model is /not/ actually to-scale because the overall length of (insert ship here) is (x) and that makes the (gun) only (caliber) realistically speaking....meh, you get the idea. My internet spaceship is just like my internet spaceship. I leave the real stuff to crazies with money.
Kusum Fawn State War Academy Caldari State 214	Posted - 2012.10.11 03:38:00 - [19] - Quote real spaceship combat is boring and exceptionally fast. Scramjets aren't common tech but are still current tech, pointing out that current tech (rl) is better in some ways then far far future tech (game) isn't that ridicules but it is pointless. Remember that physics aren't universal in EvE so what ever rules you thought you were playing with dont actually apply. edit : PS, Liquid vacuum. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Heretic Nation 2311	Posted - 2012.10.11 17:38:00 - [20] - Quote Let's just multiple all the visual numbers by 100,000 in the game. Problem solved. Now can we get back to the fact that it's a game? -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren

Freya Runestone NA No Assholes 0	Posted - 2012.10.11 20:06:00 - [21] - Quote Kusum Fawn wrote: real spaceship combat is boring and exceptionally fast. Scramjets aren't common tech but are still current tech, pointing out that current tech (rl) is better in some ways then far far future tech (game) isn't that ridicules but it is pointless. Remember that physics aren't universal in EvE so what ever rules you thought you were playing with dont actually apply. edit : PS, Liquid vacuum. real spaceship combat does not exist.
Exploited Engineer Creatively Applied Violence Inc. 90	Posted - 2012.10.11 20:07:00 - [22] - Quote Freya Runestone wrote: Kusum Fawn wrote: real spaceship combat is boring and exceptionally fast. Scramjets aren't common tech but are still current tech, pointing out that current tech (rl) is better in some ways then far far future tech (game) isn't that ridicules but it is pointless. Remember that physics aren't universal in EvE so what ever rules you thought you were playing with dont actually apply. edit : PS, Liquid vacuum. real spaceship combat does not exist. That's what THEY want you to think.
Renier Gaden Exanimo Inc Anger Management. 18	Posted - 2012.10.12 18:31:00 - [23] - Quote Freya Runestone wrote: Kusum Fawn wrote: real spaceship combat is boring and exceptionally fast. Scramjets aren't common tech but are still current tech, pointing out that current tech (rl) is better in some ways then far far future tech (game) isn't that ridicules but it is pointless. Remember that physics aren't universal in EvE so what ever rules you thought you were playing with dont actually apply. edit : PS, Liquid vacuum. real spaceship combat does not exist. It is possible with current technology. We will just have to see what happens when India tries to get to Mars before the Chinese do.
CorInaXeraL Order of the Silver Dragons Silver Dragonz 241	Posted - 2012.10.12 19:25:00 - [24] - Quote Renier Gaden wrote: Freya Runestone wrote: Kusum Fawn wrote: real spaceship combat is boring and exceptionally fast. Scramjets aren't common tech but are still current tech, pointing out that current tech (rl) is better in some ways then far far future tech (game) isn't that ridicules but it is pointless. Remember that physics aren't universal in EvE so what ever rules you thought you were playing with dont actually apply. edit : PS, Liquid vacuum. real spaceship combat does not exist. It is possible with current technology. We will just have to see what happens when India tries to get to Mars before the Chinese do. I thought Superman dancing with Spiderman was proof India already reached the peculiar outter rims of space.
Ken 1138 Enslave. Persona Non Gratis 1	Posted - 2012.10.12 21:23:00 - [25] - Quote Everything in eve online is slow by real world standards, even the fastest boosted frigate in eve. Only in warp can a ship exceed the fastest thing we've ever built, but then the ship is doing hundreds and hundreds of times the speed of light. The main point is that how eve online works. It has an up and down in space and distances in eve "visual range encounters" rarely exceed more than 300 km. If speed were like this in orbit, let alone what a space ship could do in empty space, you wouldn't even be able to see it. 747 airliner does about 800 KPH that's only 222.22 m/s and orbit is about 15000 KPH so about 4200 m/s. I've always thought all eve ships needed a "super-cruise" say 1000 km from any object or celestial the ship can accelerate to a few times the speed of light and cruise in space.


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