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I don't think people on both sides of the Crimewatch/Bounty debate get it

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Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 340	Posted - 2012.10.12 06:11:00 - [1] - Quote For those complaining on both sides about Crimewatch, Bounties, and the new AI, I think you are missing the big picture. Some disclosure upfront: I think the new bounty system is a disaster as a standalone system, and same with the new AI. I also have not much opinion about Crimewatch, because there are so many moving parts I don't know how this will all play out once Dec 5th rolls around. I also hate Soundwave because I believe he is a null sec zealot. However, with that being said, I think people are missing a key point with all these radical changes to the game, and I can't believe I am saying this, I am kind of defending Soundwave, the one who hates high sec. Soundwave has stated that he ultimately wants players to police themselves in high sec, ie. NO CONCORD. So what does that mean for "high sec" in this new form? It means that if CCP wants to keep that sub base of high sec players, but also wants to remove Concord, whatever high sec is morphed into, the players will have to have a ton of new game mechanics to combat the anarchy of the pirates plus the privations of the null sec alliances. Crimewatch and the new Bounty system, and I assume the new NPC AI, are all modules in the grand plan to transform high sec into something else. What other new game mechanics are needed to complete the transformation, I have no clue. I am guessing that CCP has no real firm grasp atm either, and these radical changes are just the first of many. Because these changes are so complex, so pervasive, there is no way they can be all introduced at once and tested on Sisi in a couple weeks. The player base is going to be beta testing them on TQ for months. And that means that new game mechanics which are a disaster as standalone systems might work when all the new game mechanics, whatever they are, are all finally integrated, however many releases that takes. My guess is CCP is willing to risk losing a number of players (the ones that goons drive out of the game with the new Bounty system, plus a number of pissed off pirates, plus all drone PvE players), since someone at CCP has this grand vision for the game, and they recognize that the new game mechanisms will be a slow, painful process to design, implement and perfect. I am guessing they have a 24-30 month view. Does this vision belong to Soundwave's, or his null sec masters' , or someone else entirely, I have no clue. Will most people agree with whatever the finished product will be? Who knows. I personally have zero faith in Soundwave, and likely won't be around when the new game mechanics are finally all in place. But maybe a new batch of players will love them. Maybe a number of old players will return. But for those that hang around, I would suggest that "you ain't see nothin' yet" when it comes to game mechanics changes.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 1094	Posted - 2012.10.12 06:22:00 - [2] - Quote What CCP says and what CCP does are two entirely different things. CCP said that they would never roll out microtransactions, and uh, very shortly after that rolled out microtransactions. Soundwave might say he wants no CONCORD, but I don't see it as anything other than trying to placate the player base so as not to make the Crimewatch changes seem too severe. They will lie if it's convenient to lie. I don't really have anything against them because of that, since they are a business. I will, however, call out their bullshit when I see it. PS: The bounty changes are actually quite nice. It's the ridiculous suspect flag and kill rights changes that completely ruin the integrity of the game. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 929	Posted - 2012.10.12 06:52:00 - [3] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Soundwave has stated that he ultimately wants players to police themselves in high sec, ie. NO CONCORD. I ultimately want to sprout angel wings and fly around the room, that doesn't mean it will ever happen. We've been here before - CCP makes grand statements about massive game-changing things they'd want to do one day in the future, whilst the things they actually work on expansion after expansion do nothing to contribute to that goal and usually work against it. I've been in three consecutive fanfest round-tables on 0.0 where everyone has said that 0.0 needed to be majorly reworked to re-vitalise the regions, to encourage conflict, to encourage repopulation, and the CCP representatives have nodded and agreed and said that they'd like to do those massive reworkings, and what do we get? Death by a thousand cuts. Jump Bridge nerf. Anomoly nerf. Tech nerf. A highsec of low risk, low effort, high rewar. There's a severe disconnect between what CCP says is on their roadmap, and the direction that the car is actually driving. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge **.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006 ~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 1802	Posted - 2012.10.12 07:12:00 - [4] - Quote What I like most about CCP is that they do not appear to be overrun with marketers and other assorted yuppie types, and like to make grand, and even delusional, attempts at improving the game. Sometimes they do well, sometimes they screw it up, but if I wanted cookie cutter lowest common denominator dumbed down crap, I'd go play WoW.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 5036	Posted - 2012.10.12 07:20:00 - [5] - Quote Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Follow me on Twitter @Chribba

Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1523	Posted - 2012.10.12 07:22:00 - [6] - Quote Chribba wrote: Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... Only if you mean we claim our own bounties like we always did, and get rid of kill rights too now, as an added bonus. Or that we can't shoot back at rookies in rookie systems if they take advantage of our suspect flag. It really gets murky from there though. Low-sec piracy sort of spills into empire high-sec, which is kind of bizarre. That's because of front-loading. So high-sec people will be dispensing "justice" for pvp in areas they want nothing to do with. Intriguing. Also, I've heard it's customary to say "In after Chribba." So, well, there you are. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Touval Lysander Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 335	Posted - 2012.10.12 07:27:00 - [7] - Quote Chribba wrote: Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... When was the last time you were ganked mining Veldspar? I lost countless ships and millions of isk on gank attempts. I did not blame CCP, Concord or the miner. I blamed me for bothering. I made more money.......... mining.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 1803	Posted - 2012.10.12 07:31:00 - [8] - Quote I think the pattern is that any sparsely populated "cold dark universe" and "sandbox" works so long as the kill everything that moves for no reason crowd does not discover it. When I read that "EvE didn't have CONCORD once", I can bet that it was before the teenagers and arrested developers found the game. The question is, will the same spirit that goes so far into figuring out the best ways to gank and grief be turned towards those who also gank and grief? Will this dream of "no CONCORD" be possible? I don't know.
Eugene Kerner TunDraGon 159	Posted - 2012.10.12 07:52:00 - [9] - Quote I am pretty sure there are already several dozen players or corps raring to start that will exploit the "sheet" out of the new crimewatch system... I just do not like the fact that high sec WILL be a "cold dark place" only for one side of the equation...for the other side it is warm and cosy if they wish to and take a little bit of care...
Dinsdale Pirannha Pirannha Corp 340	Posted - 2012.10.12 08:04:00 - [10] - Quote Eugene Kerner wrote: I am pretty sure there are already several dozen players or corps raring to start that will exploit the "sheet" out of the new crimewatch system... I just do not like the fact that high sec WILL be a "cold dark place" only for one side of the equation...for the other side it is warm and cosy if they wish to and take a little bit of care... That may be true. As I said, I think there are so many moving parts with the Crimewatch system I really don't what exploits, on either side of the coin, will be created. But I DO know that the players will find holes, big holes in the system, and there will be mad patching. Same with the AI, and the Bounty system, etc, etc. As I alluded to in my original post, these new mechanisms scream to me they are part of grander plan. The dev's drop small and large hints that this is true. And that is what will make these new mechanisms seem broken, because they are essentially isolated from the future game. What I would like to see, though I don't think CCP has the guts to do, is to come out and say "Here is our vision of where we want the game 2 years from now, and here is how we plan on getting there", and then explain precisely what that vision is, whatever it will be. Then explain the steps they plan on doing to get there. And of course, stick to that plan, as best as possible. The only problem with that is the alienation of some segment of the player base, as there are diametrically opposed factions within the game and possibly within CCP. As I much as I hate it, I think it is inevitable that the null sec zealots will prevail, IF and this is a big IF, CCP can find a way to retain the largest part of their sub base, which is high sec.

Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1536	Posted - 2012.10.12 08:09:00 - [11] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Eugene Kerner wrote: I am pretty sure there are already several dozen players or corps raring to start that will exploit the "sheet" out of the new crimewatch system... I just do not like the fact that high sec WILL be a "cold dark place" only for one side of the equation...for the other side it is warm and cosy if they wish to and take a little bit of care... That may be true. As I said, I think there are so many moving parts with the Crimewatch system I really don't what exploits, on either side of the coin, will be created. But I DO know that the players will find holes, big holes in the system, and there will be mad patching. Same with the AI, and the Bounty system, etc, etc. As I alluded to in my original post, these new mechanisms scream to me they are part of grander plan. The dev's drop small and large hints that this is true. And that is what will make these new mechanisms seem broken, because they are essentially isolated from the future game. What I would like to see, though I don't think CCP has the guts to do, is to come out and say "Here is our vision of where we want the game 2 years from now, and here is how we plan on getting there", and then explain precisely what that vision is, whatever it will be. Then explain the steps they plan on doing to get there. And of course, stick to that plan, as best as possible. The only problem with that is the alienation of some segment of the player base, as there are diametrically opposed factions within the game and possibly within CCP. As I much as I hate it, I think it is inevitable that the null sec zealots will prevail, IF and this is a big IF, CCP can find a way to retain the largest part of their sub base, which is high sec. Regarding those holes. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Soon Shin Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost 162	Posted - 2012.10.12 08:17:00 - [12] - Quote I personally think they should have put the 15 minute NPC timer. Logging off in a npc site/plex should not be without significant consequences. inb4 mission runner tears.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1537	Posted - 2012.10.12 08:18:00 - [13] - Quote Soon Shin wrote: I personally think they should have put the 15 minute NPC timer. Logging off in a npc site/plex should not be without significant consequences. inb4 mission runner tears. I agree with this. Risk adds value. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
rodyas Tie Fighters Inc 777	Posted - 2012.10.12 08:25:00 - [14] - Quote Chribba wrote: Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... A man with so many titans, you did it to yourself. I will not be voting in the CSM election, so you need to go vote to make up for me.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 5036	Posted - 2012.10.12 08:32:00 - [15] - Quote Touval Lysander wrote: Chribba wrote: Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... When was the last time you were ganked mining Veldspar? Not THAT dark GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Follow me on Twitter @Chribba

Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1541	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:25:00 - [16] - Quote Chribba wrote: Touval Lysander wrote: Chribba wrote: Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... When was the last time you were ganked mining Veldspar? Not THAT dark Chribba, with the mining barge and exhumer buffs, do you feel cheated by the relative nerf to the Veldnaught? I mean a Mackinaw and the Veldnaught share about the same risk factor now, right? He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Taranius De Consolville Curse Of The Chosen 238	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:29:00 - [17] - Quote Ofc it is Sumone slams u with a bounty because you mined there roid, u dont know who took the contract u undock ur dead TONS of people will have bountys on them pvpers will come out of null eve will go stale this bounty system is a damn stupid idea
Senarrius Big Monkey Corp Final Admonition 45	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:34:00 - [18] - Quote Taranius De Consolville wrote: Ofc it is Sumone slams u with a bounty because you mined there roid, u dont know who took the contract Brilliant idea! Thanks! Now those pesky ore thieves will get what they deserve!!
Skurja Volpar Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 29	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:36:00 - [19] - Quote More potential for emergent player driven gameplay sounds good to me, whether the average high seccer gets involved or not. High sec feeling more dynamic and less passive will probably also go a way to hook newer players and help them get involved in the game. Still, can't give a real verdict until it's done, but it sounds like a reasonable direction.
Darth Gustav Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 1543	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:37:00 - [20] - Quote Senarrius wrote: Taranius De Consolville wrote: Ofc it is Sumone slams u with a bounty because you mined there roid, u dont know who took the contract Brilliant idea! Thanks! Now those pesky ore thieves will get what they deserve!! If they're smart and famous they might be able to claim their own bounty with their alt - four times in one ship! Individual, ship, corp, alliance! Not only that, but they eliminate the kill rights against them too with their alt, if those were for sale. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom


Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 5039	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:37:00 - [21] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Chribba wrote: Touval Lysander wrote: Chribba wrote: Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... When was the last time you were ganked mining Veldspar? Not THAT dark Chribba, with the mining barge and exhumer buffs, do you feel cheated by the relative nerf to the Veldnaught? I mean a Mackinaw and the Veldnaught share about the same risk factor now, right? It's all about style, so nope never feel cheated GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Follow me on Twitter @Chribba

Shederov Blood Wrecketeers 14	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:38:00 - [22] - Quote Taranius De Consolville wrote: Ofc it is Sumone slams u with a bounty because you mined there roid, u dont know who took the contract u undock ur dead TONS of people will have bountys on them pvpers will come out of null eve will go stale this bounty system is a damn stupid idea Unless there is an open kill-right on you, which is not the same as having a bounty, most bounties will mean little more than they do now. There won't be mass gankings at the undock unless you happen to be flying the first ORE frigate or new destroyer ever built.
Senarrius Big Monkey Corp Final Admonition 46	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:39:00 - [23] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Senarrius wrote: Taranius De Consolville wrote: Ofc it is Sumone slams u with a bounty because you mined there roid, u dont know who took the contract Brilliant idea! Thanks! Now those pesky ore thieves will get what they deserve!! If they're smart and famous they might be able to claim their own bounty with their alt - four times in one ship! Individual, ship, corp, alliance! Not only that, but they eliminate the kill rights against them too with their alt, if those were for sale. I have a new plan forming now :D
Target Is Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:48:00 - [24] - Quote Reduce freighter ehp to 1000 Boost rifter ehp to 1 million
Shederov Blood Wrecketeers 14	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:50:00 - [25] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: If they're smart and famous they might be able to claim their own bounty with their alt - four times in one ship! Individual, ship, corp, alliance! No. There's up to 3 bounty pools, not sure where you're getting the "ship" one from. And each ship kill will only pay out once based on the value of the ship, and subtract it from the pool most specific to that player.
Inquisitor Kitchner Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes 176	Posted - 2012.10.12 09:58:00 - [26] - Quote Darth Gustav wrote: Chribba wrote: Touval Lysander wrote: Chribba wrote: Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... When was the last time you were ganked mining Veldspar? Not THAT dark Chribba, with the mining barge and exhumer buffs, do you feel cheated by the relative nerf to the Veldnaught? I mean a Mackinaw and the Veldnaught share about the same risk factor now, right? inb4 CCP allow dreadnoughts with mining lasers to be built in High Sec.
Senarrius Big Monkey Corp Final Admonition 46	Posted - 2012.10.12 10:08:00 - [27] - Quote Inquisitor Kitchner wrote: Darth Gustav wrote: Chribba wrote: Touval Lysander wrote: Chribba wrote: Maybe it will return to the cold dark harsh world some of us remember... When was the last time you were ganked mining Veldspar? Not THAT dark Chribba, with the mining barge and exhumer buffs, do you feel cheated by the relative nerf to the Veldnaught? I mean a Mackinaw and the Veldnaught share about the same risk factor now, right? inb4 CCP allow dreadnoughts with mining lasers to be built in High Sec. Why not Freighters with mining lasers
Sable Moran Moran Light Industries 63	Posted - 2012.10.12 10:17:00 - [28] - Quote Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: I have no clue. This pretty much says it all. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Laboratories Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 933	Posted - 2012.10.12 11:19:00 - [29] - Quote Target Is wrote: Reduce freighter ehp to 1000 Boost rifter DPS to 1 million fixed. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge **.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006 ~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever.
F'elch Wall Street Trading 19	Posted - 2012.10.12 12:52:00 - [30] - Quote Is there some way these mechanics can be abused to gank the Veldnaught? I would like to see that thing go down in flames.



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