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Sen Cate
Blackstar Privateer Consortium Enigma Project
0
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Posted - 2012.10.15 14:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hi All,
I had a skill idea; I expect it to get shot down in flames; and it might not even be an original idea but here goes:
Firstly let me say that I have no gripes with the game, it's a unique experience that I enjoy playing.
Secondly I'd like to make it clear that I don't think the skill system is broken. I like the fact that there is no need for long boring grinds for experience points.
The thing I think should be addressed however is the vast general advantage old characters have over newer characters. They have more experience, more tactics, more knowledge, more ISK and more skillpoints. They can fly and fit better ships, and fly those ships more effectively whether in combat, mining or hauling.
It's got to be a bit of a put-off for a new player, or even an alt used to try a different career. Yes you can have fun; but in order to be anywhere near competitive you are going to have to sit around for a few months slowly accumulating ISK and skills to fly that Charon or whatever ship of your dreams. Then you'll have to wait around for a few more months before you can actually fly it effectively enough to really start reaping the benefits of your dream career. Worse still, you get your Charon and then decide hauling ain't your thing so you start the process all over again in another career! And the months roll on, attention spans dwindle people drift away yada yada.
Anyway, I expect my above ramblings is news to nobody who has spent more than 5 minutes playing the game. So my idea is that every month average skillpoints for the main characters (highest skillpoints) for every subscribed account is worked out. Every account below average gets double skillpoints until the next month. Everyone above the average gains skills as normal.
Low skill characters become more effective more quickly, and new players get to try out several careers more deeply and more quickly as they so choose. Alts could become more effective for people who like to specialise in numerous careers without having to sit around for ages.
High skill players get more challenging opponents, but retain their advantages in ISK, tactics and experience. Noobs aren't going to suddenly gain hundreds of millions of skillpoints but it might just level the playing field a bit.
It's just an idea, so feel free to tell me how you would all quit if it were ever implemented!
TL;DR Below average characters gain skillpoints twice as fast as above average characters! |
Jim Era
4759
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Posted - 2012.10.15 14:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
no that is a bad idea. You can always buy a new character from the bazaar, problem solved you are no longer lacking in SP. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
337
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Posted - 2012.10.15 14:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yaaay, lets penalize our longest paying customers...... That sure sounds like a great business model.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
337
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Posted - 2012.10.15 14:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
I just noticed you are posting this from a 2008 character.....
You should be ashamed of yourself. Bad Sen Cate... Go to your basket!
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
726
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Posted - 2012.10.15 14:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Let me think about this...
NO!
Also, its not the size that matters (of your SP) but what you do with it. Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm... |
Robert De'Arneth
122
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Posted - 2012.10.15 14:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Everyone should have to pay the piper imho. You have not lived until you have been Wated by Jim!!-á-á |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE Initiative Mercenaries
153
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Posted - 2012.10.15 14:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Everyone will just roll new characters on their current accounts to train T3 cruiser alts before switching training back to their mains.
I agree the SP system is a bit punishing for new players but giving them 2x SP bonuses isn't the solution. I think certain basic skills should have their requirements reduced though. The main culprits that spring to mind are Cruisers requiring Frigates 4. I think that should be reduced to Frigates 3 to allow new players to keep momentum with their training and another big one is Tech 2 armour mods needing Hull Upgrades 5. For a new player who wants T2 hardeners, they have to wait around 10 days with no improvements to their awful skill sets whatsoever (while shield tankers get T2 hardeners in about 4 days with so many tanking skills available to allow them to receive constant rewards while training). This is quite frustrating for new players. I'd say T2 armour modules should only have Hull Upgrades 4 as their prerequisite. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1328
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Posted - 2012.10.15 14:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Skillpoint welfare?
No.
But I tell you what, you can tell everyone your next alt started out at level 80.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
180
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Posted - 2012.10.15 15:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Sen Cate wrote:Hi All, I had a skill idea; I expect it to get shot down in flames; and it might not even be an original idea but here goes: Firstly let me say that I have no gripes with the game, it's a unique experience that I enjoy playing. Secondly I'd like to make it clear that I don't think the skill system is broken. I like the fact that there is no need for long boring grinds for experience points. The thing I think should be addressed however is the vast general advantage old characters have over newer characters. They have more experience, more tactics, more knowledge, more ISK and more skillpoints. They can fly and fit better ships, and fly those ships more effectively whether in combat, mining or hauling. It's got to be a bit of a put-off for a new player, or even an alt used to try a different career. Yes you can have fun; but in order to be anywhere near competitive you are going to have to sit around for a few months slowly accumulating ISK and skills to fly that Charon or whatever ship of your dreams. Then you'll have to wait around for a few more months before you can actually fly it effectively enough to really start reaping the benefits of your dream career. Worse still, you get your Charon and then decide hauling ain't your thing so you start the process all over again in another career! And the months roll on, attention spans dwindle people drift away yada yada. Anyway, I expect my above ramblings is news to nobody who has spent more than 5 minutes playing the game. So my idea is that every month average skillpoints for the main characters (highest skillpoints) for every subscribed account is worked out. Every account below average gets double skillpoints until the next month. Everyone above the average gains skills as normal. Low skill characters become more effective more quickly, and new players get to try out several careers more deeply and more quickly as they so choose. Alts could become more effective for people who like to specialise in numerous careers without having to sit around for ages. High skill players get more challenging opponents, but retain their advantages in ISK, tactics and experience. Noobs aren't going to suddenly gain hundreds of millions of skillpoints but it might just level the playing field a bit. It's just an idea, so feel free to tell me how you would all quit if it were ever implemented! TL;DR Below average characters gain skillpoints twice as fast as above average characters!
Why?older players had to wait, why shouldn't everyone else?
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S'Way
Bitter Vets
32
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Posted - 2012.10.15 15:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
They already gave new players a boost by removing learning skills - back in the day you'd spend the first couple of months sat in a station just doing that. Then there was the new player implant etc.
You can only train each skill to lvl 5 - each ship has a limited number of skills that are used, so if you specialize in a couple of ships you'll be able to fly them with the same skills as any 100m+ sp veteran in a reasonable timeframe. Having lots of skillpoints is not an "i win" button, it just gives you a larger choice of ships to use. If you fly in a fleet then a new character with only a mwd / warp scrambler / web can make the difference in a fight - some of the biggest alliances in game will tell you that. As for isk making a difference - anyone can buy a plex for isk now, but usually you won't be flying alone and will be asked to fly fleet doctrine ships (and those usually are all fit the same and reimbursed if lost).
It might feel like you've got no hope against players who've been around for years - but that's an illusion, you have. Also once you get to the stage of having loads of skillpoints, then think back to memories of when you had most fun in game.....it will likely be those early days. |
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Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
952
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Posted - 2012.10.15 15:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
...
The idea that Skill points are the win all-be all is bullshit.
A new player can rock an older player with more SP if they know what they're doing. There is definitely an advantage, but that's the advantage of PLAYING FOR SEVEN YEARS STRAIGHT.
Where I am. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
340
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Posted - 2012.10.15 15:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
S'Way wrote:It might feel like you've got no hope against players who've been around for years - but that's an illusion, you have. Also once you get to the stage of having loads of skillpoints, then think back to memories of when you had most fun in game.....it will likely be those early days.
Very well put S'Way. One internet spaceship 'like' for you!
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Brunik Rokbyter
Ideal Machine Academy The Ideal Machine
3
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Posted - 2012.10.15 15:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Most of these guys have hit the nail on the head.
I take low SP people out PVP roaming all the time against higher SP and better shipped pilots. We typically come out ahead. There are just as many high Skillpoint morons out there as there are low skillpoint morons.
Find you a veteran... learn from them. This will even the playing field far more than an SP boost. While character skills make it easier to fight, player skills are what determines who wins, even in 2 ships fit exactly alike.
And the difference between high SP characters and Low SP characters isn't age as much as it is who kept their account active and their skills rolling.... I have a 2008 character in my corp who hasn't even broken the 1mill sp mark...
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
1814
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Posted - 2012.10.15 16:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Isn't this already built-in by the fact training a skill to V is a really long train time for a relatively minor advantage? Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - low/nullsec operations, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
59
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Posted - 2012.10.15 16:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Clone costs.
And an idea like this would be abused to make a whole lot of significantly more potent gank alts. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9885
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Posted - 2012.10.15 16:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sen Cate wrote:Secondly I'd like to make it clear that I don't think the skill system is broken. Good. That means there's nothing to fixGǪ
Quote:The thing I think should be addressed however is the vast general advantage old characters have over newer characters. GǪfor instance, one of the issues that the current skill systems solves is that older characters do not have any kind of vast advantage over new characters. Older characters only have a bunch more SP, but the game effect of that is that older characters have more expensive clones andGǪ that's it. Total SP (the only thing an old character has vastly more of) only has one actual mechanic tied to it, and that is the clone grade.
In everything else, what matters is applicable SP, and even then, it's not the total that matters but the combination of skill levels they provide. 256k SP can either be wasted on a high skill level and give a 25% bonus, or it can be spread over a suitable collection of skills and provide a 250% bonus.
Quote:Yes you can have fun; but in order to be anywhere near competitive you are going to have to sit around for a few months slowly accumulating ISK and skills to fly that Charon or whatever ship of your dreams. No, you really don't. In particular, it takes maybe a week to get the skills needed to try out any one career path in EVE (except maybe cap piloting) and decide if it's something you'll want to pursue or not. If it takes several months, the one thing you can be sure of is that you haven't quite grasped what the profession in question is about. The only problem is that new players get griefed by people telling them they have to train a fuckton of useless skill levels to become competitive or to try out whatever they're interested in, when in reality, all they need is a lvl III or four, which can be had in a matter of days. These idiots get into their heads (and then into the heads of the poor newbies) that a 25% bonus is better than a combination of skills that provide a 250% bonus, and frankly, those tards need to be podded back to Mining I. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tao Dolcino
Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
24
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Posted - 2012.10.15 16:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
There's one point on which i'd like to meditate a bit, because indeed it's frustrating : Your example of a guy training for months on a hauling (or mining or whatever) char to finally realize that it's not what he/she likes, and who has certainly discovered in the meantime something more fun to do in EVE. I can imagine that we lose players because of that. So much time, money and efforts to restart almost from nothing in order to have fun (because at the end the goal of a game is to have fun). We could think about a SP remap system. Something which would cost a lot to activate, with big restrictions (like you lose enough SP to want to use it only as a desesperate solution). So the former hauler could sacrify his ancient profession to get at least a small capital in a new vocation... something which would help the player to stay and be motivated again. Just an idea.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9885
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Posted - 2012.10.15 16:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tao Dolcino wrote:We could think about a SP remap system. No we really couldn't, because the only way to introduce it in a way that does not break fundamental game mechanics is one that ensures it will never ever be used, making it a pointless waste of time to implement to begin with.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
305
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Posted - 2012.10.15 16:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
The only thing that makes you better in PvP is PvP experience, not skillpoints.
Start PvP early when your clones are cheap. Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
killorbekilled TBE
Quantum Link Company Tribal Band
118
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Posted - 2012.10.15 17:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
i got to the 6th line and stop reading sorry TrollorbeTrolled |
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ctx2007
Wychwood and Wells Beer needs you
160
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Posted - 2012.10.15 17:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
New players should have come to EVE earlier instead of wasting years on WoW..... simple |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
329
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Posted - 2012.10.15 17:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
It's good that you're thinking about this sort of thing, I welcome that - although I can assure you that anything said that affects older players isn't going to always go down well!
Also, don't forget that new players now get a skill training booster for the first 35 days. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
307
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Posted - 2012.10.15 17:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sen Cate wrote: The thing I think should be addressed however is the vast general advantage old characters have over newer characters. They have more experience, more tactics, more knowledge, more ISK and more skillpoints. They can fly and fit better ships, and fly those ships more effectively whether in combat, mining or hauling.
It's got to be a bit of a put-off for a new player,but it might just level the playing field a bit.
Quote: They have more experience, more tactics, more knowledge CCP can't make people smarter.
You can get ISK if you're willing to spend a few dollars on PLEX.
You can use those PLEX to buy a character on the bazaar.
EVE apeals to the sort of person who doesn't have esteem issues; CCP can't help those that do. |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
1438
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Posted - 2012.10.15 17:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jint Hikaru wrote:Yaaay, lets penalize our longest paying customers...... That sure sounds like a great business model.
When you have the chance, I would like to introduce the Clone Upgade Cost mechanic to you. I think it is about time you two meet.
Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner! |
Carver DiGriz
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
17
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Posted - 2012.10.15 18:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
OP makes an excellent case here... for a downvote button. |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
1049
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Posted - 2012.10.15 18:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
I have almost 130 million skill points.
However, when I fly an interceptor, one of my most favorite ships, I'm only actually making use of about 8 million of my skill points.
Dual Pane idea: Click!
CCP Please Implement |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1335
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Posted - 2012.10.15 18:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
Don't you already get a skill point boost till 900k or so? Its been a while since I had a character that low, so it may have changed. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
389
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Posted - 2012.10.15 18:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bad idea overall.
Basically it comes down to this. EVERY MMO game has this issue. New players vs old. The nice thing about EVE is that it creates a far less pronounced problem.
In most MMO's trying to PVP against a far older character is just suicide. not so in EVE.
In EVE you have have a relatively new player in a T1 tackling frig turn the tide in a fleet battle.
In EVE a player with less SP can beat an older player through tactics and piloting.
In EVE a lower SP player can still be very well specialized to specific ships. The main benefit the older player has is more options of ships they can fly well.
Plenty of other examples. But bottom line is that a characters age in EVE means far less than every other MMO i've played. |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
173
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Posted - 2012.10.15 18:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jim Era wrote:no that is a bad idea. You can always buy a new character from the bazaar, problem solved you are no longer lacking in SP.
And if someone wants to win the lottery just pay off the lottery officials. Simple. |
Sen Cate
Blackstar Privateer Consortium Enigma Project
0
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Posted - 2012.10.15 18:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
Thanks all for your valid points. I did write a reply but my browser crashed but here's the gist of it:
I am 2008, so this boost probably isn't going to affect me.
I was chatting with my friend about starting playing Eve. Sure we could have some fun blobbing, smacktalking and getting blown up, but the time requirements to be effective living self supporting outside of hisec are prohibitive. The time requirements of getting a career up to the point where you could fund a Rifter exploding habit without PLEX or rich friends are prohibitive.
This is not an easy game to get into, I accept it wasn't easy back in the day either. Making new players run some kind of hamster wheel gauntlet just because we did is not the way to encourage new people! |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2574
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Posted - 2012.10.15 19:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Sen Cate wrote:Thanks all for your valid points. I did write a reply but my browser crashed but here's the gist of it:
I am 2008, so this boost probably isn't going to affect me.
I was chatting with my friend about starting playing Eve. Sure we could have some fun blobbing, smacktalking and getting blown up, but the time requirements to be effective living self supporting outside of hisec are prohibitive. The time requirements of getting a career up to the point where you could fund a Rifter exploding habit without PLEX or rich friends are prohibitive.
This is not an easy game to get into, I accept it wasn't easy back in the day either. Making new players run some kind of hamster wheel gauntlet just because we did is not the way to encourage new people!
Time prohibitive?
Do you realize how many Rifters you can buy and outfit (and insure) with an hour of ratting or missioning? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
107
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Posted - 2012.10.15 19:07:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jint Hikaru wrote: ... and you too will probably realize how amazing and balanced the skill point system is in a world of grind for exp MMOs, and flame someone like the '2012-you' on the forums.
Amen to that. I tried Tera when it came out back in April. The combat was fun but I quit before the level cap. I just can no longer stand the XP grind and the moving from zone to zone hack and slash format. SWTOR was the same experience for me. I am a realist; I would much rather go camping than wonder around frontierland at Disney World. |
Adeleda Adoudel
Welp The Monkey Free Enterprise Treaty Organization
17
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Posted - 2012.10.15 19:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
The thing that's great about the current training scheme is that it takes time. It takes commitment. Over the time it takes to train these long skills you have time to learn how to use whatever it is you're training for. Countless times I've seen a 2 month old player jump into lowsec in a terribly fitted battleship thinking they're the dogs danglers. Then a Merlin, a 500k isk frig shoots them down to reality. I did it myself. The point is.. the long training times may suck, but in the long run they're worth it to learn the game. |
Conrad Makbure
Division One Security
30
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Posted - 2012.10.15 19:49:00 -
[34] - Quote
A better way would be to buff the cyber learning implants; have the betas start at +3 and they go up from there. |
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