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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Kathulu
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Posted - 2005.03.29 23:07:00 -
[1]
I am looking for an answer why people use the medium turrets on bs class ships. I always see ship setups with smaller turrets on larger ships is this better for some reason.
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Sangxianc
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Posted - 2005.03.29 23:16:00 -
[2]
Just means you can fit other stuff. Better tracking as well, but this is often offset by the bonuses to large turrets.
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Any man's death diminishes me, as I am involved in mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. |
Rexy
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Posted - 2005.03.30 01:15:00 -
[3]
due to incredibly poor tracking vs frigs/cruisers of large guns.
example 1400's cant hit frigates at 100km out while mwdÝng. by keeping an eye on transveral you can kill em eventually
you could try webbing and autocannons, but it's easier to fit smaller guns wich have a bit better range and tracking then the shortrange better tracking bs guns.
All i want for cristmas is a typhoon with launcher rof bonus :) |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.03.30 01:18:00 -
[4]
In projectile its because the medium 720 howitzers have a high optimal, but still have better tracking than the smaller Large Autocannons. So when shooting targets @30km, they work very well. And the user has low minmatar BS skill.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Sadist
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Posted - 2005.03.30 03:27:00 -
[5]
Its a common misunderstanding that BIG guns cant hit small targets at big range, well tracking has nothing to do with it, the reason is Signature radius and Signature resolution. Learn that, plz.
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Captin Biltmore
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Posted - 2005.03.30 04:14:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Rexy
due to incredibly poor tracking vs frigs/cruisers of large guns.
Hahaha....tell that to the ceptor pilot that I almost popped today with 1 volly from my Tach's. He was at 93km and I hit him once and put him to 10% structure. Or the assult frig that I hit from 60 today (twice) and had him to 20% armor (and a lot of hull damage too). We wont even talk about how well large guns hit cruisers. I hit them better than frigs (obviously) but 2-3 volly can take out most cruisers.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.03.30 05:48:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Captin Biltmore
Originally by: Rexy
due to incredibly poor tracking vs frigs/cruisers of large guns.
Hahaha....tell that to the ceptor pilot that I almost popped today with 1 volly from my Tach's. He was at 93km and I hit him once and put him to 10% structure. Or the assult frig that I hit from 60 today (twice) and had him to 20% armor (and a lot of hull damage too). We wont even talk about how well large guns hit cruisers. I hit them better than frigs (obviously) but 2-3 volly can take out most cruisers.
Tracking matters little at long range 
But once those frigs get 30k or closer and you wont be able to touch them. Never MWD in a frig if a sniper is around, they normally cant hit you before you escape, unless you MWD.
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Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2005.03.30 06:48:00 -
[8]
Benefit - when you get completely owned, you can use 'I only had medium guns fitted!' as an excuse.
If you want to hit frigs, use drones.
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Haha, stupid monkey! Now I'VE got the Oscar! Enjoy your worthless gun! |
Kathulu
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Posted - 2005.03.30 08:15:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nero Scuro
Benefit - when you get completely owned, you can use 'I only had medium guns fitted!' as an excuse.
If you want to hit frigs, use drones.
I like that lol I think i will do that since my skills to pilot a bs suck so bad
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2005.03.30 09:09:00 -
[10]
I've seen sniper apocs that can obliterate any frig at 100km.
Not that tough as it seems.
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fras
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Posted - 2005.03.30 09:16:00 -
[11]
I use heavy pulse II on my NPC raven. They hit approaching frigs and kill cruisers at any range or speed. I used to use dual 250 proto's and the pulse are infinately more useful.
I've seen lots of pvp ravens with both medium and small turrets of all types. I think it just comes down to being able to hit smaller targets and saving grid.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.03.30 09:30:00 -
[12]
It's all about transversal. Anyone in a frigate at 100km from a sniper that clicks 'Aproach' or 'Orbit' will die. And should. Anyone who gives it a bit of effort, watches his transversal, and takes 10 seconds longer to get to a target, actually gets there in one piece.
I've approached Tachyon II, 1400mm II and 425mm II with varying numbers of Tracking Computers without ever getting hit with this tactic.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Tar om
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Posted - 2005.03.30 12:30:00 -
[13]
Basic Gunnery (and why 1400s miss.)
I get the feeling that the devs have either poor understanding of gunnery, or are limited by the game engine in what aspects of gunnery they can reproduce. Either way, I'm going to compare some RL gunnery issues which affect the performance of turret mounted weapons with their counterparts in EVE. For those who do not like RL comparisons, pucker up. These concepts WOULD apply to spaceships, I'm not going to start talking about speedboats skimming round battleships ;)
Tracking.
Tracking is the speed at which the gun mount (turret) can swing the gun barrel towards the target. This is well understood by the player base and is modelled within EVE. In the UK we'd call it the Maximum Rate of Traverse - and it is a very important stat for armoured vehicles. WW2 tanks often had hand powered traverse which limited the speed at which they could lay onto new targets, modern tanks can spin a 15+ ton turret through 360deg in <10s. This is a LOT faster than a Large Turret on a BS in EVE - especially when you consider that the turrets in EVE appear to be unarmoured and unmanned.
However, before we congratulate EVE on modelling tracking - there is a very important factor that is not modelled: The accuracy of tracking. There's no point spinning a turret really fast if it does not move smoothly and accurately. There must be no "whiplash" in the mechanism which can result in the barrel pointing in a slightly different direction to where the aiming mechanism thinks it is pointing. This stat is NOT modelled in EVE. Accuracy of tracking is assumed to be perfect. Its not a great failure - but it might provide another means for balancing if slow tracking guns had higher tracking accuracy and vv.
Accuracy.
This is modelled in EVE as signature resolution. In EVE, a gun is given a single value of target resolution (ie 200m) and this is used to compare with the signature radius of the target. If you fire a gun with 200m Sig Res at a Target with 100m Sig Radius you will miss with a lot (half probably, I bet they don't calculate the area) of your shots - BEFORE TRACKING IS TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT. If you wish to try this for yourself, park a tempest 30km away from a giant secure can and let rip. You will miss a lot of shots because the sig radius of the can is smaller than the sig resolution of the gun. The problem with this is that the value is constant no matter what range you shoot at. This is because accuracy is more correctly measured in ANGLES. A projectile weapon (and presumably a hybrid weapon in EVE) will not fire all its shells along the same path but into a cone. For a decent RL rifle, that cone will have a point angle of about 2 minutes of arc (1/30 of a degree).
This means that the closer and larger the target, the more chance the gun has of putting all its rounds into a cone which is smaller than the target while the further and smaller the target, the more likely it is that rounds will spill round the edges of the target - EVEN IF THE AIMING IS PERFECT. (we're still assuming that both the target and firer are stationary).
This is not what happens in EVE.
In EVE, the (stationary) gun has the same change of hitting the (stationary) target nomatter what the range - right up to the maximum range of the weapon. This is clearly counter intuitive and leads to some confusion between tracking and sig radius. If your guns do not have the signature resolution stat to hit a small target properly, they will not do so - nomatter what the range. People tend to blame tracking at close range, but often it is the sig radius that is to blame. Crucially - the sig resolution stat cannot be modified with modules.
What I would like to see. :)
1. Signature Resolution on turrets replaced by Accuracy defined in units of arc.
2. The hit formula to take into account Range, Accuracy and Target Signature Radius instead of Sig Radius and Sig Res. (Range is already used in the damage calculations so should not add much server load/lag).
3. Named guns to include varieties with better Accuracy.
4. Ideally, and dependant on server load. Tracking Accuracy stat to be introduced for all turrets with values generally inverse to the tracking speed of the turret.
5. Tracking Accuracy modules to be introduced/modified from the current Gyrostabiliser family
With those changes we could really balance turrets properly, and have them behave intuitively at the same time. It would lead to a lot less whining in the long run :)
Tar-om
OV
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We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
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Posted - 2005.03.30 12:31:00 -
[14]
Oh, the answer to the original question is:
Because they have better Signature Resolution, Better Tracking and lower fitting requirements. You don't do damage when you miss.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
xHjfx
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Posted - 2005.03.30 14:07:00 -
[15]
They are implementing target painters i think that increase the targets sig radius.
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Tar om
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Posted - 2005.03.30 15:13:00 -
[16]
True, but they appear to have a constant effect nomatter what range they are used at.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.03.30 16:27:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 30/03/2005 18:05:38
I wore 720s because of their greater functional range over the 425s. Not because they tracked better. Better tracking is a bonus.
Tar Om, distance to target does affect accuracy. Lets assume the distance at which your cone = the size of your target is optimal. The further away you go, the more you will miss due to falloff. In fact, there was a thread arguing that this model was wrong, and that as you get further away you should get weaker hits, not just more misses. Arguing against the flat distribution of hit types over range. But it seems like the model you want is already in-game.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
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