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goldiiee
Tax and War Haven
73
|
Posted - 2012.11.22 22:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
David Gnoll wrote:goldiiee wrote:I for one am looking forward to the change. Might not be so good on the drones, I might even have to keep a few extra lights and less mediums in the drone bay but I look forward to the next time some stealthy bomber or GÇÿwhateverGÇÖ warps into a group of NPCGÇÖs I am ratting, or and tries the old Scram/Blam on a mission runner.
As we all know PVP fits donGÇÖt work in missions any better than Mission fits work in PVP. I foresee the inevitable uncloaked ship going for the easy kill of a mission boat and having the entire room switch to the new cruiser/frig on the field, no more waiting for a new spawn and hope they get the agro.
The Tears should not be coming from Missions runners, the real tears should be coming from the Gank fits that will now have to tank the room same as me while they try to get to shiny Mission runner or Ratting alts mods. I for one, am also looking forward to the change. I find that the shift toward a smarter AI is a good idea. However, we have to keep in mind that EVE is still a game. Games require an attempt at balance; although such an ideal will never be fully reached. So in light of that, can't they make this change to the AI without ruining another primary weapon system? I am not against this happening to drones altogether either. However, if they make a change like this that forces a huge penalty to ships that primary drones, they must make a benefit that can either cope with it our equal it out. Also, according to the Dev Blog, the way you want the change to work is considered a bug in the new AI system right now. They don't want it to happen so enjoy the short lived protection from gankers. (To be clear, I think that change should be made permanent.)
Will do, I hope to see at least one would be ganker tanking a sanctum. :)
I tried out a few missions on Buckingham, and only lost one drone in 3 missions and all 5 drones in one mission.
Before they all died they were doing a better job of killing rats than the other way around. I can see a little more attention needs to be paid to the drones and how they are fairing, but recalling them just made them die quicker. Will continue to try with different drones for different rats rather than just 'fast and hard' the solution might be mission specific drones (similar to Mission specific hardeners) There is no "I" in "team." but there are 5 in "narcissistic personality disorder." |

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
270
|
Posted - 2012.11.23 17:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
David Gnoll wrote:
Challenge can be fun. No one is arguing that. However, they are adding challenge to lvl 5 or gang run missions/complexes, while the outcome on drone use is not gaining at all from this (in fun or otherwise).
You would be hard pressed to argue that this change makes drone use more 'fun and challenging.' It only makes it more tedious and outright punishes drone boats. To put it in perspective I'll go over something I touched on in the OP.
Consider these scenarios. You are running a lvl 4 with 2 battleships (let's say low SP players who have been running missions for a long time). They will now have to work together is a slightly more challenging and perhaps more rewarding run that provides just enough change to make it more fun. That's the idea, and it's a good one.
Next however, let's see both of these players now have much higher SP and can now solo those missions. Have access to T2 tanks and are working toward T2 weapons. One decided to move into a drone boat, the other into a raven. Now, when they are running missions on their own; what happens with this change?
The Raven has literally nothing new to worry about. His weapons systems don't change at all based on the aggro (because he is the only target).
The Dominix on the other hand, will now need to effectively stop the majority (if not all) of his DPS every two minutes or more just for the sake of a more fun PVE experience?
Tell me, is that fun or simple tedium?
How hard would it be to allow the exact kind of aggro shift that makes it more fun (changing from player to player) without killing drone boats? Answer that one.
Who flies these Ravens that do not use drones? I run level 4 missions and a raven is still one of my goto ships.
It is true that a raven with T2 cruise launchers using precision missiles can hit frigates. But why would you bother? Running level 4 missions is all about maximizing isk/hr for most mission runners.
Personally I set my light drones on the frigates and take out the rest with my missiles. How the mission is laid out will determine if I start with cruisers and work up, or Battleships and work down. But fast completion times require me to rely on my drones as a primary counter to the web/scram frigates. Especially the elite ones. I currently need to keep an eye on my drones as some missions the different waves are set to attack drones that target a different wave. Also new wave spawns can attack drones. This is not a major problem but can cost you a couple drones if not paying attention.
Can I complete the missions without using drones? Yes of course. But completion times are much slower. This change will be a massive nerf to the isk/hr of most dedicated mission runners.
Running missions on the test server, in the same way that has given me the best completion times on TQ has resulted in drones getting mass targeted by every cruiser and smaller ship in the room and generally getting popped before they can get back to the ship. Even a warrior II is very slow when targeted by webing and scraming rats.
There are different ways of running missions to compensate for this. But the best i can do is about double my previous average completion times. Can I still run missions? Yes. But I make literally half the isk/hr I made before the change. The same missions that I can complete on TQ in about 20 minutes, take me at least 40 minutes to complete on the test server.
If the new A.I. is here to stay then at least compensate the lost isk/hr by doubling the loyalty points given by the missions. This will keep the isk/hr of mission running where it should be but reduce the isk faucet at the same time. Loyalty points actually create an isk sink as you need LP plus isk to get items from the loyalty point store. High NPC bounty payouts are the biggest isk faucet in this game. Income from missions comes in three forms. Straight Bounty payouts, loyalty points from completion of the missions, and loot/salvage/tag drops by the rats. Loyalty points, and loot/salvage/tags dropped by rats create income without bringing new isk into the game thru items the mission runner can sell. Straight bounties however being an isk faucet provide income to the mission runner through directly injecting new isk into the game.
The most effective way to curb inflation in the game is to cap isk faucets and increase isk sinks. reducing the bounties and increasing the loot drops would go a long way to reducing the level of inflation we have seen in EVE.
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
237
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 00:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
On a side note, most races except Gallante, during PVE mission running use small and Medium drones to knock out hard to reach targets or take out Scrammer frigs first thing on the battlefield.
This really hurts the Gallante and possibly aircraft carriers significantly, when it comes to PVE. Perhaps, maybe this is the right way to go, but the Gallante really did get the unfair shaft of the deal, or maybe its time for the Gallante ships to get the majority of their Drone boat ships to be remade into more hybrid/railgun bonus to compensate, at-least temporally.
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Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
76
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 05:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
now all that needs to be done is add durability to t1 laser crystals  |

HydroSan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2012.11.24 05:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
I'm sure someone at ccp found out that gallente was slightly useful so they had to nerf the weakest race again. |

David Gnoll
A-31 Shattered Empire
9
|
Posted - 2012.11.25 04:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:David Gnoll wrote:
Challenge can be fun. No one is arguing that. However, they are adding challenge to lvl 5 or gang run missions/complexes, while the outcome on drone use is not gaining at all from this (in fun or otherwise).
You would be hard pressed to argue that this change makes drone use more 'fun and challenging.' It only makes it more tedious and outright punishes drone boats. To put it in perspective I'll go over something I touched on in the OP.
Consider these scenarios. You are running a lvl 4 with 2 battleships (let's say low SP players who have been running missions for a long time). They will now have to work together is a slightly more challenging and perhaps more rewarding run that provides just enough change to make it more fun. That's the idea, and it's a good one.
Next however, let's see both of these players now have much higher SP and can now solo those missions. Have access to T2 tanks and are working toward T2 weapons. One decided to move into a drone boat, the other into a raven. Now, when they are running missions on their own; what happens with this change?
The Raven has literally nothing new to worry about. His weapons systems don't change at all based on the aggro (because he is the only target).
The Dominix on the other hand, will now need to effectively stop the majority (if not all) of his DPS every two minutes or more just for the sake of a more fun PVE experience?
Tell me, is that fun or simple tedium?
How hard would it be to allow the exact kind of aggro shift that makes it more fun (changing from player to player) without killing drone boats? Answer that one.
Who flies these Ravens that do not use drones? I run level 4 missions and a raven is still one of my goto ships. It is true that a raven with T2 cruise launchers using precision missiles can hit frigates. But why would you bother? Running level 4 missions is all about maximizing isk/hr for most mission runners. Personally I set my light drones on the frigates and take out the rest with my missiles. How the mission is laid out will determine if I start with cruisers and work up, or Battleships and work down. But fast completion times require me to rely on my drones as a primary counter to the web/scram frigates. Especially the elite ones. I currently need to keep an eye on my drones as some missions the different waves are set to attack drones that target a different wave. Also new wave spawns can attack drones. This is not a major problem but can cost you a couple drones if not paying attention. Can I complete the missions without using drones? Yes of course. But completion times are much slower. This change will be a massive nerf to the isk/hr of most dedicated mission runners. Running missions on the test server, in the same way that has given me the best completion times on TQ has resulted in drones getting mass targeted by every cruiser and smaller ship in the room and generally getting popped before they can get back to the ship. Even a warrior II is very slow when targeted by webing and scraming rats. There are different ways of running missions to compensate for this. But the best i can do is about double my previous average completion times. Can I still run missions? Yes. But I make literally half the isk/hr I made before the change. The same missions that I can complete on TQ in about 20 minutes, take me at least 40 minutes to complete on the test server. If the new A.I. is here to stay then at least compensate the lost isk/hr by doubling the loyalty points given by the missions. This will keep the isk/hr of mission running where it should be but reduce the isk faucet at the same time. Loyalty points actually create an isk sink as you need LP plus isk to get items from the loyalty point store. High NPC bounty payouts are the biggest isk faucet in this game. Income from missions comes in three forms. Straight Bounty payouts, loyalty points from completion of the missions, and loot/salvage/tag drops by the rats. Loyalty points, and loot/salvage/tags dropped by rats create income without bringing new isk into the game thru items the mission runner can sell. Straight bounties however being an isk faucet provide income to the mission runner through directly injecting new isk into the game. The most effective way to curb inflation in the game is to cap isk faucets and increase isk sinks. reducing the bounties and increasing the loot drops and loyalty point rewards would go a long way to reducing the level of inflation we have seen in EVE.
Fair enough. I didn't mean to say that the Raven doesn't use drones at ALL.
However, the nerf will not effect them in the same way you're saying. Most times they use light drones to pick off the frigates, but they are fast and orbit close to you. It is not difficult to pull the fastest drone in from 4000 meters without them dying. |

Ex-chan
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:38:00 -
[37] - Quote
Quote:...So fixes to this are: 1: Remove drone aggressive stance Imagine that shield is pierced, armor is broken, structure is leaking, and drones are just spinning around their home and doing nothing to protect it. The only question then is "Who the hell designed these stupid drones' intellect?". Idiotic scene. Do not want it.
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
454
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
DaRiKavus wrote:Sleepers....enough said.
Not really. Sleeper sites were designed with this AI in mind. All existing missions and so forth were designed with stupid AI in mind. It makes a difference. |

Kuro Bon
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
Akuma Tsukai wrote:Give me a way to repair drones in the bay. Gimme a way to carry a lot of spares. ... And then i wont mind AI change.
I think these ideas are headed in a better direction. If drones are thought of as "ammo expended" when killed, a drone boat really can't carry much. The most "ammo-analagous" change would be to let you transfer drones from the cargo-to-drone-bay with some kind of "prep time" (aka reload timer).
100M ISK per hour is about $3US an hour. -áIt's more efficient to work at starbucks.-á Playing the game doesn't advance skills, kinda like ProgressQuest. |

Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
766
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 13:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
Shortly after I first started to play Eve, I was told that it was a mistake to fly Gallente ships, but I stuck with them.
As my Dominix Navy Issue looks like it will soon be neither use nor ornament, I should have listened to those who knew better than I.
If I cannot earn isk running level 4 missions, which by the way I actually enjoy, how am I to earn isk to lose at pvp?
I suppose I shall find a way to adapt.
To those who say pve will be more exciting, I say this. Once folk work out how to 'farm' the new missions, everything will have changed and all will be the same. This is not a signature. |

Ahn Tee Mahtur
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 12:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
Random question but still on-topic about New AI, will the enemies change or multi-target fleet members who are logistics or those who don't do damage in general? Will the new Ai attack my noctis/logistics ship for the lulz? If so, this Ai needs to go. |

goldiiee
Tax and War Haven
77
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 15:08:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ahn Tee Mahtur wrote:Random question but still on-topic about New AI, will the enemies change or multi-target fleet members who are logistics or those who don't do damage in general? Will the new Ai attack my noctis/logistics ship for the lulz? If so, this Ai needs to go.
Just tried this out on Buckingham to get a good idea of how it will work.
Primary account Mach: standard mission fit, with 5 medium rep drones. Alt account Scimitar: standard fit no Local reps
Took full room agro in Gone Berserk then I warped in the scimitar, Approximately 30 seconds later the cruisers that had not been killed switched aggro to the scimitar. Primary accountGÇÖs Overview showed the agro switch with the standard Yellow box and I assigned the medium rep drones to help with the scimitars tank. Approximately 1 minute in one of the BS rats switched agro to the scimitar so I switched my fire to that BS and melted it pretty quick as soon as it died all BS agro switched to the scimitar. I continued to run through the rats nearest first and worked my way up. (Frig spawn aggroGÇÖed the mach not the rep drones) site was completed in 6 minutes with no loss of drones, and full shields on the scimitar and the mach.
Reason and logic never wins over Stubborn and Convinced-á (But-áI still try..) |

Ahn Tee Mahtur
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 20:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
goldiiee wrote:Ahn Tee Mahtur wrote:Random question but still on-topic about New AI, will the enemies change or multi-target fleet members who are logistics or those who don't do damage in general? Will the new Ai attack my noctis/logistics ship for the lulz? If so, this Ai needs to go. Just tried this out on Buckingham to get a good idea of how it will work. Primary account Mach: standard mission fit, with 5 medium rep drones. Alt account Scimitar: standard fit no Local reps Took full room agro in Gone Berserk then I warped in the scimitar, Approximately 30 seconds later the cruisers that had not been killed switched aggro to the scimitar. Primary accountGÇÖs Overview showed the agro switch with the standard Yellow box and I assigned the medium rep drones to help with the scimitars tank. Approximately 1 minute in one of the BS rats switched agro to the scimitar so I switched my fire to that BS and melted it pretty quick as soon as it died all BS agro switched to the scimitar. I continued to run through the rats, nearest first, and worked my way up. (Frig spawn aggroGÇÖed the mach not the rep drones) site was completed in 6 minutes with no loss of drones, and full shields on the scimitar and the mach.
still seems a bit backwards. defeats the purpose of "smart" missioning and just makes it more blitz-like. Not my cup of tea/coffee mate. |

goldiiee
Tax and War Haven
77
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 21:15:00 -
[44] - Quote
Well I cant say as to the Noctis, but the new salvage drones cleaned up the field in about 5 minutes after I finished the site (started them to work as soon as the last wave spawned).
I am sure there will be some changes we will all have to adapt to but I see many benifits to the new system that has yet to become evident to the more, Ummm 'Creative' types in EVE. IE: having to figure out how to fit the Mission tank on a gank ship cant wait to see those tears. Reason and logic never wins over Stubborn and Convinced-á (But-áI still try..) |

Cambion Andedare
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.03 10:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'm running L3 missions in a Myrmidon now, and just started using T2 drones. However, if i lose a few of those during a mission, i lose ISK instead of making some... Not sure what to expect... |
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