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unbless83
T.R.I.A.D
12
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Posted - 2012.11.18 07:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
An idea i've thought would be fantastic for a long time...
Make ECM have UI related effects. The severity of the following effects is based on jam strength vs your sensor strength.
The efects below are listed in no particular order of severity :D
effect of targeted ECM on ships would cause:-
-Target ship/drone brackets display to flicker/ switch off -Tactical overlay interference (like white noise) or flickering/ switching off -Shield armor hull readouts to flicker/ switch off (both enemy and your own) -Overview colum updates stop/ switch off/ slow down etc (you might not see that cyno go up in local *ohnoes*) ewar effect icons (on your HUD) switch off/flicker/malfunction -Causes overload status on modules/weapons to lock in the ON state (or stop) *this could allow you to strategically burn out peoples mods/ racks* -Ability to see if targets are yellow boxing/red boxing -local count updates stall/ switch off etc any one or more of these effects can be happening all at once depending on the chance based equations we already have... for perhaps 10 seconds at a time
now... ECM pulses... this is our new missile defense ewar, as oposed to screwing with TD. Firstly, rename it to ecm field, then Having it act like a normal active defense mod, basically all it does is have a chance to effect incomming guided missiles. a chance (based on strength and number of mods) to cause missile/s to swerve wildly of target *would look cool btw*.
There are loads of easily do-able ideas along these lines. the main thing for me is that none of this would force pilots to spectate fights while under the effect of ECM... these effects would simply ask more of the individual pilots SKILL... wich is something we KNOW will generate some hero stories, not to mention look pretty cool in fraps vids etc.
cheers -unbless
Aussies are the unicorns of eve... rare and horny |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard
134
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Posted - 2012.11.18 08:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Thats umm, well fantastic........ |
Perkin Warbeck
Amarrian Space Poodles 24eme Legion Etrangere
74
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Posted - 2012.11.18 11:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Can the jammed pilots avatar also cry real tears as well? Saves them having to type random insults in local. |
Shaishi Otichoda
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.11.18 12:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
I approve this approach. Not necessarily with these parameters but general approach is correct. ECM effects shouldn't be binary; depending on your distance and jamming strength your target should be suffering about some of the effects, if not all.
I also like the idea of ECM having effect on the intel as well which would cause pilots to rely on other means of communications. I'd say add static to EVE Voice communications as well, but that'd too easy to counter by TS3 or Mumble and therefore counter productive.
Here are couple of others as well:
- ECM to have effect on warfare links. If links on the grid get jammed, they should go offline or at least run on reduced strength. - If you get jammed, you shouldn't receive the boost from the links - i.e. I get jammed, I shouldn't receive speed/resist bonuses. - ECM should affect fleet/watchlist and all chat windows as well. |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
135
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Posted - 2012.11.18 13:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
I still think my idea of ECM not breaking locks but preventing new locks is a better way to fix ECM. |
unbless83
T.R.I.A.D
13
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Posted - 2012.11.18 14:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
what im trying for here is to have ECM follow the suit of the other ewar types. all the other ewar types simply make pvp harder.
ECM on the other hand is a switch that simply turns pvp off for 20 seconds... its boring
under this idea jamming logi is still a great option in fleets because it would have a chance for those affected to lose information about what is happening around them... but it woulodnt sswitch off their ability to participate entirely... all it would do is require more skill from logi squads being jammed... other logi pilots that perhaps arent jammed would need to communicate who to target for reps once his friends start to lse the ability to keep a check on the broadcasts and HP readouts for example.
as for solo work/ small gang jamming is still great because you can slow down enemy pilots ability to keep up to date with what your ship/s is doing because of the interference caused to brackets, tactical overlay and overview update speeds etc
dont get me wrong ive utilized my fair share of ECM... but i do feel there could be more done to make combat more visceral when being attacked with electronics as well as guns... they are giving us new explosions, turret sounds and animations etc... but nothing to beef up the experince having your clone electronically slammed by what SHOULD be an equally scary and painful experience.?
food for thought at the very least
Aussies are the unicorns of eve... rare and horny |
Afuran
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
10
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Posted - 2012.11.18 17:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
It isn't broken.
(Good ideas though) |
Sean Parisi
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
48
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Posted - 2012.11.19 02:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Afuran wrote:It isn't broken.
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Kazim Scumling
Judge Enterprises
3
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Posted - 2012.11.19 04:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
I agree on ECM being completely binary and chance based, is a bad design choice considering all the other EWAR types. However I don't like the idea of client-side effects as generally such effects can be countered by 3rd party tools.
One possible idea is to make ECM similar to TD but only effective on missiles. This might sound a fair bit of nerf and reduced usage for ECM however considering other EWAR tools like Sensor Dampeners, Target Painters or even Tracking Disruptors, ECM is far too general and far too effective in almost all types of combat situations.
EWAR tools are almost always situational except ECM, which is the main problem with it.
I can't say ECM is broken, but I can say that ECM just doesn't fit well with EVE combat. |
RawNec
T.R.I.A.D
2
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Posted - 2012.11.19 07:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sweet unbless!
I have couple of ideas to add.
If you are in a DPS ship in the fight and are being jammed really hard, you end up targeting your own team members (randomly and as many as your ship are able to target)
The other way around if you are a repper on field. A Repper randomly target the enemies instead.
If this happens you have to deselect the unwanted targets and redo the target procedure.
Note that the DPS ship can have reppers fitted and can in this case still use them successfully but probably not as intended. Luck is involved this case.
If you are improvident you can end up on a killmail along with the war target, killing your own teammate.
If it is a 1v1 you are simply unable to target your opponent(only one enemy on grid and you).
You can also add to this functioanlity that you also target neutrals (if any on grid) and if you apply damage on them you will go GCC of course. If you are lucky it is an enemy alt atleast.
You can also add whitenoise, peeepps etc to disturb fleet comms. Jamming noise will appear even if client sound is disabled except when jammed by rats(PVE) etc.
PS Adding the sound of a baby crying to the background noise when jammed, will affect me atleast, really REALLY HARD! DS
Cheers Raw |
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Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin
160
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Posted - 2012.11.19 09:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
ECM has to change, it's that simple. I have been bitching about it ever since my first engagement against an ECM thrasher that apparently only exist in FW plexes.
An annoying and wily beast, the best will only show his ECM hand if he's in scram range or wishes to run back to the herd.
I like the UI messing stuff, switching off the OV for a time and only being able to target by shift-clicking in space would be pretty cool. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Liandri Covenant
296
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Posted - 2012.11.19 11:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
you just described so called FW lag. |
Austneal
Drone Federation
39
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Posted - 2012.11.19 14:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:ECM has to change No... it doesn't. A single ECM module has about the same chance of effecting a fight as a single web or single neut. ECM drones, on the other hand need looked at |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
650
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Posted - 2012.11.19 16:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
OP interesting ideas. I am not sure I would change ecm to do this though. Maybe make some other module or something.
I think ecm plays a good role in the game as a whole. Its not like every null sec fleet is all scorpions. But ecm is too powerful as the numbers involved in a fight get smaller. Specifically in a setting like faction war plexing I think it is too overpowered. A single griffin with multi racials can get over 80% jams on any battlecruiser.
I just don't fight at all when I see ecm on dscan. I got burned enough, and ts not worth it anymore.
I think ccp should make the faction war complexes such that they give a huge sensor strength boost to ships of the complexes race. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Perkin Warbeck
Amarrian Space Poodles 24eme Legion Etrangere
75
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Posted - 2012.11.20 00:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Cearain wrote: A single griffin with multi racials can get over 80% jams on any battlecruiser.
I think ccp should make the faction war complexes such that they give a huge sensor strength boost to ships of the complexes race.
I think the fix to ecm everyone is looking for is the new fangled thingy called 'eccm'.
I'm not sure I understand the problem with ecm. The only issue I see is that many unbonused ships (such as a thrasher) can get a huge advantage out of it when they really shouldn't. But I don't think anyone can really complain about an ecm bonused ship such as the Griffin jamming you. It's what they are designed to do.
Should we nerf warp disruptors on interceptors because they can point you from very far away and stop you warping off when you want too?
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Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin
162
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Posted - 2012.11.20 00:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
Perkin Warbeck wrote:Cearain wrote: A single griffin with multi racials can get over 80% jams on any battlecruiser.
I think ccp should make the faction war complexes such that they give a huge sensor strength boost to ships of the complexes race. I think the fix to ecm everyone is looking for is the new fangled thingy called 'eccm'. I'm not sure I understand the problem with ecm. The only issue I see is that many unbonused ships (such as a thrasher) can get a huge advantage out of it when they really shouldn't. But I don't think anyone can really complain about an ecm bonused ship such as the Griffin jamming you. It's what they are designed to do. Should we nerf warp disruptors on interceptors because they can point you from very far away and stop you warping off when you want too?
Aw come on Perkin, fitting ECCM only works in gangs where you can spare the mid slot. In small gangs or solo it just isn't viable on many ships right now. I am at a loss to understand where I put my eccm on my rifter if i want that rifter to be able to take on other frigates?
Lets put it another way. I, in my rifter take on 2 pilots in frigates. There is a realistic chance I can kill them both. I take on 2 pilots in a frigate and griffin and I have 2 choices. Die or GTFO. If I'm in a home system I potentially can refit, if on a roam I am buggered.
ECM basically fucks small gang or solo for very little effort. This may not be an issue for those that play EVE for grand strategy or whelping ships but to people like me anything that means someone ******** can utterly own someone with a far greater degree of skill is just stupid.
At least if I could see ECM on unbonussed ships before I engaged perhaps I'd be less bothered. Even then, on DSCAN you'll never know and plexes force a fight at 0 if the target really wants it.
I am against ECM and its current mechanic, it's a crap mechanic but I've put up with it for this long I'll keep doing so I'm sure.
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
551
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Posted - 2012.11.20 01:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
It is odd that you have sensor dampeners, which reduce lock range and increase lock time (with scripts too) and then you have ECM. ECM just prevents locks and is chance based. The former is an ECM module with clearly understood behaviour that degrades your combat ability but allows pilot skill to counter it, the other is an overpowered joke with random numbers that turns you from a combatant into a punching bag.
SD's have been accused of being too OP by certain cretinous and ill-informed people. However, the functionality of SD's is basically what ECM should be, period. You get the choice to reduce the target's scan res or targeting range, and either it takes them forever to lock and thus knackers dps, or totally impossible to lock at range, which totally nixes DPS. Deployed in a small gang situation with skill, damps can be horribly effective. Deployed randomly by unskilled numpties, it is worse than useless.
Yes, the latter is a terrible situation to be in if you aren't fast enough to close with the kitey, dampy bastich, but as it stands currently and after Retribution, this isn't overpowered - especially for cruiser and up. Single damps on condors which kite is a pain solo, but if you are a good enough pilot, judicious overheat while aligned to a celestial should get you out of dissy range and away. It will be interesting to see how many kitey dampy Maulus' get around and how horrible they are, but again, you will need skill to prevail...or just take a Griffin and you can orbit at 500m in utter safety.
Contrast it to ECM where all you need to do is lock your opponent and wait, and it is clear that ECM should be removed entirely, and dampeners should be the primary type of ECM. Lock-breaking ECM is fine, and would work synergistically with damps (break lock, res damp, enemy takes 50s to re-lock, you break lock, repeat) but would not allow a single Falcon to permajam a half dozen people and turn a good fight into a frustrating, brain-melting waste of effort and ISK.
Taking submissions for "Trinkets friendly Advice Column" via evemail or private convo in-game. Anonymity sorta guaranteed.
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
653
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Posted - 2012.11.20 02:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Perkin Warbeck wrote:Cearain wrote: A single griffin with multi racials can get over 80% jams on any battlecruiser.
I think ccp should make the faction war complexes such that they give a huge sensor strength boost to ships of the complexes race. I think the fix to ecm everyone is looking for is the new fangled thingy called 'eccm'. I'm not sure I understand the problem with ecm. The only issue I see is that many unbonused ships (such as a thrasher) can get a huge advantage out of it when they really shouldn't. But I don't think anyone can really complain about an ecm bonused ship such as the Griffin jamming you. It's what they are designed to do.
I don't think a t1 frigate should be able to completely remove a t1 bc from a fight. If the griffin was just permajamming another t1 frigate I would say maybe. If it could permajam a cruiser its still too much. But permajamming a bc is ridiculous.
At least in small scale situations. In larger fleets there will be someone that can pop the griffin in a few volleys. But in very small fights they are over to the top.
Forfeiting a midslot is not a really great option in small scale pvp. Thats sort of like saying dramiels weren't overpowered since everyone can just fit multiple webs. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Kazim Scumling
Judge Enterprises
3
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Posted - 2012.11.20 04:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Austneal wrote:Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:ECM has to change No... it doesn't. A single ECM module has about the same chance of effecting a fight as a single web or single neut.
Actually Web or Neut doesn't have the chance to effect the fight as they are not chance based. However ECM is completely chance based. A small neut in a frigate can not do much against a Battle Cruiser. However an ECM module in a frigate with some luck can shutdown a Battle Cruiser for an extended period of time. That much random chance just does not fit with EVE combat.
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Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
50
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Posted - 2012.11.20 07:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
I like the idea of client side effects to keep you on you toes.
My 'fix' for ECM would be this:
Have a different class of ECM for non-ecm designed ships (like we have with cloaks) that are nerfed with a reactivation delay after each cycle to break locks only. This of it as an escape mechanic, not an offensive tool.
Have T1 jammer boats only capable of breaking locks, not preventing locks.
Have T2 jammer boats the same as they are now.
If you want to perma-jam, then you have to skill up and splash the isk. |
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
2959
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Posted - 2012.11.20 08:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Philpip wrote:I like the idea of client side effects to keep you on you toes.
My 'fix' for ECM would be this:
Have a different class of ECM for non-ecm designed ships (like we have with cloaks) that are nerfed with a reactivation delay after each cycle to break locks only. This of it as an escape mechanic, not an offensive tool.
Have T1 jammer boats only capable of breaking locks, not preventing locks.
Have T2 jammer boats the same as they are now.
If you want to perma-jam, then you have to skill up and splash the isk.
That's not really a fix. That's an attempt at retaining a crappy mechanic by giving people breadcrumbs and hoping they'll be satisfied with that, instead of actually fixing the issue. I don't get why you're trying to maintain the mechanic anyway. It isn't fun and just prevents actual fighting from happening. A new system only needs to retain the ability to ruin logistics and it can't possibly be worse then what we have today. |
Kamenev Drang
Sacred Templars Unclaimed.
0
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Posted - 2012.11.20 10:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
You know, in my limited career, ECM drones have helped me pull off some rather pleasant solo victories, especially against frigate pilots who like to burn into range and sit on top of my hurricane, orbiting faster than the guns can track with their scram turned on, so I'm just going to say I'm quite happy with them as they are now. Has Falcon basically shut me down at times? Yes. Have other players ECM drones allowed them to kill my lock and let them warp off? Yes. Did I cry? No. Because I don't think I'm entitled to ganks.
My proposed fix: Make it module specific. Chance of shutting down a TD, chance of shutting down the point, chance of shutting down the guns. Et al. |
unbless83
T.R.I.A.D
16
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Posted - 2012.11.20 10:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kamenev Drang wrote:You know, in my limited career, ECM drones have helped me pull off some rather pleasant solo victories, especially against frigate pilots who like to burn into range and sit on top of my hurricane, orbiting faster than the guns can track with their scram turned on, so I'm just going to say I'm quite happy with them as they are now. Has Falcon basically shut me down at times? Yes. Have other players ECM drones allowed them to kill my lock and let them warp off? Yes. Did I cry? No. Because I don't think I'm entitled to ganks.
My proposed fix: Make it module specific. Chance of shutting down a TD, chance of shutting down the point, chance of shutting down the guns. Et al.
i dont mind that idea, at least it gives players some way of countering it with skill Aussies are the unicorns of eve... rare and horny |
Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
200
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Posted - 2012.11.21 01:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
A- why would the caldari, the race that uses missiles make a anti-missile weapon. Amarr make sense as the minni's use missiles should all TD's do it? probably not. should it be a script? probably not. a new mod(like how ECM has 4) with its own scripts would be fine tho.
B- damps and ECM should be alike in some regards, the caldari and gallente were at one time the same group and much of there tech has the same roots.
The other forms of ewar fit there races fights Vs. each other Nuets and TD's stop speed tankers that get to close and make long range alpha combat hard well TP's and webs help long range combat and/or speed keep its edge. Now damps do work well Vs. the caldari combat doctrine ether forcing the enemy closer to you or making the delay between missile volleys so big its sad well pointing from ranges that caldari boats would fly from you. Now ECM dose work vs. the galente the bigger problem is that it works better Vs. minnie and ammar as they have the weaker sensor str and works against almost every thing ever for no real reason. If any thing ECM needs to be some how more usfull Vs. drones and point blank max DPS. Well how would you do that? no clue, but this crying its too good, well only proposing crap ways to make it the absolute worst helps no one. I just shows how butt hurt you are. I mean c'mon cosmetic effects? why not have it just make the enemy's hud turn a different color or a diff language and sing the helo-kitty song at the user? I'll tell you why its useless, webbs and points slow you or deny your escape and make you dead, nuets turn your ship off and/or stop you moving/doing any thing and make you dead, TP's make you more dead, and TD's make you not kill , the only idea that would even be close to right would be some type or DPS reduction or deflection and sense TD's do the reduction already all your left with is the stunn you have now or some type of hack you make you punch your self thing that would make most of you wine even more. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec. Were is the FW exclusive frigate sized ship? I see the cruiser and battle ship.......... |
Kamden Line
Eclipse Navy Get Off My Lawn
30
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Posted - 2012.11.21 04:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sean Parisi wrote:Afuran wrote:It isn't broken.
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SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
910
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Posted - 2012.11.21 05:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'll agree with this but only if Officer ECM modules turn the opposing players computer off. |
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
137
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Posted - 2012.11.21 08:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:
Contrast it to ECM where all you need to do is lock your opponent and wait, and it is clear that ECM should be removed entirely, and dampeners should be the primary type of ECM. Lock-breaking ECM is fine, and would work synergistically with damps (break lock, res damp, enemy takes 50s to re-lock, you break lock, repeat) but would not allow a single Falcon to permajam a half dozen people and turn a good fight into a frustrating, brain-melting waste of effort and ISK.
I would agree with making ECM just a lock breaker. Now what of the burst? Does everyone feel that it is balanced?
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Victua
T.R.I.A.D
8
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Posted - 2012.11.22 05:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mabe, in keeping with the Crimewatch changes, we can just keep the current mechanic and introduce a new flag: get a killmail with ECM modules used on it and for 24hrs you have a 'Little *****' flag so people know who they are dealing with ahead of time.
And don't attempt to patronize this thread with ECCM, you just look foolish as ECCM does'nt work, even with the FW implant set that boosts your sensor str. Trust me, I have tried it for real, not just in EFT, a thrasher can jam a ECCM SFI with full Jackel implants >20% of the time. And with my luck that means yes, I have had Fweddit thrasher jam my SFI 4 out of 5 consecutive cycles, by then had to run because you can't loiter that long in a single SFI.
I get the argument, in the 'Real World' ECM is a valid part of warfare, but the difference is, if you jam a tanks radio, you don't jam its guns. And if you jam his targeting system, there are backups and he is not truely dead in the water.
There have been threads ad nauseum about how to resolve this (lock breaker, or jammed ship cannot be locked because of ECM interferance, or taking damage ends the timer putting it in line with the traditional role of CC) and its clear that since its not a big fleet problem, its not really much of a CCP priority atm.
The best answer I have found is just not try and do solo work or small gang warfare without your own ECM on batphone as a 'get out of gank free' card (though I usualy fail to follow my own best answer).
But remember, its not a broken mechanic. Just one that if one party uses, ALL parties must use or lose hands down. |
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