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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.04.22 14:22:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Steppa on 22/04/2005 14:26:35
Edited by: Steppa on 22/04/2005 14:22:24
Let me say out of the chute that I love this game and feel its the best MMORPG to come down the pipe. There are many aspects of pvp I find immensely enjoyable. But something has GOT to be done about system scanning.
My corp is part of the Fountain Alliance. As do most people who live in 0.0 space, we frequently have hostile pvp'rs come snooping around our systems. In a fun game, you would be able to locate them (given the right gear, training, and experience) and engage them in combat.
In Eve, however, whether its a large fleet or a single frigate, sensor probes and system scanning is a long, arduous process which USUALLY ends up with the prey logging off, thus rendering a lot of wasted time and effort.
Let me reiterate. My entire point here is that intercepting and engaging hostiles inside a system needs to be easier in some way, shape, or form. The current game mechanics make it frustrating and more often than not, a waste of time and boring.
Here are my problems with the game mechanics in this regard.
1) You have zero control over how far you warp. This seems counter-intuitive. You have this massive ship with advanced control systems which can warp to a safe-spot (read as any previously bookmarked spot in space), but you can't point your ship in a given direction and warp a given, even menu driven, distance. This is rediculous. If this one thing was changed, the current system scanning and probe methods would be almost bearable.
2) Logging out. If you're in 0.0 space, or in Empire and there are members of an alliance or corp your corp/alliance is at war with is in the same system, there should be a serious delay (10 minutes maybe) from the time you leave the game and the time your ship disappears from the game. This would drastically reduce the fruitless cat-and-mouse games played in 0.0 with the intruders more often than not logging off rather than face combat.
3) If you control the system (hold all conquerable station, for instace) you should have a WEALTH of sensor data at your disposal. POS and space station sensors, simply due to size and power, should be vastly superior to ship. As long as I'm on this...FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, AT LEAST LET ME ACCESS THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY OUTSIDE THE STATION SO I CAN SEE IF ITS CLEAR TO UNDOCK!!! WHAT, THEY DON'T HAVE WINDOWS???
4) A new system of warp signatures. I would LOVE to see this implemented. Whether its through the use of certain ships with superior innate systems or mods that actively detect while operating (skills can alter ranges and accuracy), I would like to be able to see warp signatures.
In this, I mean that with the right gear or skill, you would get a "ping" on your hud or scanner, showing the entrance or exit of a warping starship. With higher skills, you may even be able to see how far and what direction the ship is going. There are any number of ways to implement this, use your imagination.
A corpmate of mine forwarded the idea that three covert ops ships, with superior innate sensors, working in some sort of linked fashion (ganged and all activating the same mod, for instance) would be able to instantly triangulate any ship they found. This would be interesting, even given the current system, and would encourage more covert ops pilots to work together.
Honestly, I don't know why we're not able to access the XYZ grid system that is already built into the game. Bookmark something and you get it's coordinates on a 3 axis grid. GREAT. Just give me a window or control that allows me to input coordinates manually and warp to them. Then, if someone in my gang gives them to me, I punch them in and off I go. This seems a lot more "real" and would definitely be more immersive.
Just make engaging enemy players more exciting and let the process bear more fruit more often.
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News
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Posted - 2005.04.22 14:40:00 -
[2]
Edited by: News on 22/04/2005 14:40:42
 Originally by: Steppa
As long as I'm on this...FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, AT LEAST LET ME ACCESS THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY OUTSIDE THE STATION SO I CAN SEE IF ITS CLEAR TO UNDOCK!!! WHAT, THEY DON'T HAVE WINDOWS???
yarr
Edited to give credit to creator of the picture. Greme ftw!
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Kitty N
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Posted - 2005.04.22 14:43:00 -
[3]
Classic! 
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Lythius Arcturnus
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Posted - 2005.04.22 14:44:00 -
[4]
Good ideas!
I agree the current system could use some work, but at the same time I don't think it would be fair to ever allow anyone to find someone instantly. Perhaps a short amount of time, maybe 5 minutes so that the prey has to keep on the move.
Making it very dangerous for a pirate to hang around in enemy space is a good thing. Making it certain death is a bad thing. At the same time though, letting the pirate run free for large amounts of time with no way to find them is bad as well.
Just my 2 cents.
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Gift
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Posted - 2005.04.22 14:53:00 -
[5]
Originally by: News
Edited by: News on 22/04/2005 14:40:42
Originally by: Steppa
As long as I'm on this...FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, AT LEAST LET ME ACCESS THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY OUTSIDE THE STATION SO I CAN SEE IF ITS CLEAR TO UNDOCK!!! WHAT, THEY DON'T HAVE WINDOWS???
yarr
Edited to give credit to creator of the picture. Greme ftw!
nice one m8 
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Righteous Fury
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Posted - 2005.04.22 15:12:00 -
[6]
Actually its not hard to find hostile PvPers. In 0.0, assume anything not blue is hostile. Its a lot easier that way.
As for the pic, our corp knows someone out of game who quit eve because he lost a blackbird to pirates because he was too stupid to look at local. Hmm...
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Aureus
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Posted - 2005.04.22 15:15:00 -
[7]
LOL That picture is hillarious!
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Blackwin
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Posted - 2005.04.22 15:30:00 -
[8]
ROFL! wellcome to eve 
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FireFoxx80
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Posted - 2005.04.22 15:34:00 -
[9]
*****s pants*
GIANT SPACE PIRATE!
ex P-TMC
If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
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Razor Jaxx
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Posted - 2005.04.22 15:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: News
yarr
Edited to give credit to creator of the picture. Greme ftw!
Oooooooh man that made my day, thx!!
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lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.04.22 15:57:00 -
[11]
yup i would have to agree with you. It is difficult/impossible to force people into pvp. Thats why gates get camped. There simply is no realistic alternative.
However I am not sure about the 10 minute timer thing or being able to locate people instantly at ss's.
Personally I have a daughter and a partner who loves her cups of tea....
When I sit down to play I may play for 30 minutes.. then the dreaded "make a cup of tea !" shout comes from downstairs. Im then afc for 10 minutes while i get her her cuppa, biscuts etc. Or my daughter gets up and im running around for a while trying to get her back to bed.
When this happens i'll normally go to a ss and log. But I'll always say to the hostiles in local, "im going afc for 10 minutes but i will be back".
If the timer gets increased to like 10 minutes or the speed of scan probes increases to the point where you are guarnteed to be found if you log in space and some one's got probes.. well that sucks.
I'll be forced to start using ss's that are way off the grid.. or just restrict my pvp to times when I can get a couple of hours without being interupted.. thats about once a week.
What happens if its 3 am and you are trapped in a system... and you have to get up for work in 4 hours?? do you have to stay awake and keep warping between ss's untill local is clear you can log off?
By far the best sugestion is to be able to follow some ones warp trail.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2005.04.22 16:07:00 -
[12]
Quote:
yarr
-
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Zandramus
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Posted - 2005.04.22 16:23:00 -
[13]
Quote:
What happens if its 3 am and you are trapped in a system... and you have to get up for work in 4 hours?? do you have to stay awake and keep warping between ss's untill local is clear you can log off?
Well then you would have the option to either
A) enguage the enemy , win or lose at least you got to fight.
B) try to escape teh system and get to a station where you could log off safely.
I think that if you log off in space you should be able to be found for a certain amount of time.
Zandramus
Zandramus
Parking Violations Officer
Geminate Division
S.A.S
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MacDuncan
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Posted - 2005.04.22 16:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: lythos miralbar
Personally I have a daughter and a partner who loves her cups of tea....
When I sit down to play I may play for 30 minutes.. then the dreaded "make a cup of tea !" shout comes from downstairs. Im then afc for 10 minutes while i get her her cuppa, biscuts etc. Or my daughter gets up and im running around for a while trying to get her back to bed.
Oh.....i know these situations.....our loved ones are always coming within the perfect situations e.g. big fleet-engagments...they do have a sixth sense for this...
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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2005.04.22 16:37:00 -
[15]
I agree with the topic ideas. This is an important issue.
Right now it's just too easy to avoid PvP even if there is a big enemy fleet in same system as you. There need to be tools to make it easier to force a fight on your enemy. Of course one shouldn't go overboard by making it too easy. Some people have valid reasons to be away from computer at certain times and they shouldn't lose a ship for that. Such balance shouldn't be that hard to achieve.
I'd say, if people have to be away from computer for more than 3 minutes, they should just log off. In this case, it should be very hard, tho not impossible, to locate and kill them.
But when there are a bunch of people in system who try to hide from hostiles but not willing to log either, then it should be much harder for them to avoid a fight against properly prepared intelligent enemy.
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Ikvar
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Posted - 2005.04.22 16:52:00 -
[16]
Good ideas.
Another thing that annoys me is huge time before you can lock someone who has just come out of warp. I'm not saying remove it totally but this is just rediculous:
First lock attempt on an instajumping ship that would take me 3 seconds to lock:
2005.04.22 16:47:34notifyInterference from the warp Darkov Sİİİİİp is preventing your sensors from getting a target lock on them.
Last lock attempt (and I'm just sitting there repeatedly control clicking) as it jumps:
2005.04.22 16:47:43notifyUnable to target that as it is no longer present.
10 seconds!?
_________________
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SidViciousSG
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Posted - 2005.04.22 16:55:00 -
[17]
Here is a simple solution that does'nt require any changes in the game's mechanics :
-Hide sensor probes from the ship's scanner to prevent targets from logging when they catch a glimpse of a launched probe on their scanner.
Make sense ?
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Miner's Bane
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Posted - 2005.04.22 17:10:00 -
[18]
If someone is not warp scrambled and they log, the current game mechanics are fine. They could warp from safespot to safespot and be completely safe, so nothing is changed by them not being in-game.
If someone logs warp scrambled, then if they escape it is only by virtue of the logoff mechanic, which changes the outcome of the encounter.
Hence logging while scrambled in combat is bad, and logging normally is not.
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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.04.22 18:16:00 -
[19]
I still think instituting manual input of grid coordinates would be both useful and fun. Also, allowing me to point my ship wherever I want it and warp to a distance I want, even if shorter than my cap will allow, should be put in the game. Neither of these things would necessarily change the mechanics of the game too terribly.
Great pic, btw.
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Shamis Orzoz
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Posted - 2005.04.22 18:19:00 -
[20]
Removing local solves a lot of problems. It's impossible to get the jump on anybody these days whether you are the pirate hunting prey, or you are the noble pirate hunter.
When I enter local in 0.0 most miners/npc'ers either insta-log or imediately warp to a safespot.
When I camp a gate, as soon as I see the 20 man blob jump into local to attack me and my 3 cronies, we immediately warp to a safespot.
Removing local means that people will fight, because they won't know what is going on fast enough to be able to log out or warp to a safespot before some sort of engagement occurs.
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Zandramus
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Posted - 2005.04.22 18:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Removing local solves a lot of problems. It's impossible to get the jump on anybody these days whether you are the pirate hunting prey, or you are the noble pirate hunter.
When I enter local in 0.0 most miners/npc'ers either insta-log or imediately warp to a safespot.
When I camp a gate, as soon as I see the 20 man blob jump into local to attack me and my 3 cronies, we immediately warp to a safespot.
Removing local means that people will fight, because they won't know what is going on fast enough to be able to log out or warp to a safespot before some sort of engagement occurs.
Yes I believe Local is a big problem and that problem is this....
There is no fog of war because of it...
the all seeing local lets everyone know you are there before you even uncloak at the gate.
CCP even on a battlefield you should be able to sneak up on someone to a point where they caould see you....
Do not show people in local unless
1. they talk in the local channel
2. they are within scanner range.
These 2 combined would make pvp much more interesting.
Right now all someone has to do is put you in their buddylist and they are instantly notified when you jump into local with the big green dot.
Zandramus
Zandramus
Parking Violations Officer
Geminate Division
S.A.S
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.04.22 18:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ikvar
Good ideas.
Another thing that annoys me is huge time before you can lock someone who has just come out of warp. I'm not saying remove it totally but this is just rediculous:
First lock attempt on an instajumping ship that would take me 3 seconds to lock:
2005.04.22 16:47:34notifyInterference from the warp Darkov Sİİİİİp is preventing your sensors from getting a target lock on them.
Last lock attempt (and I'm just sitting there repeatedly control clicking) as it jumps:
2005.04.22 16:47:43notifyUnable to target that as it is no longer present.
10 seconds!?
I don't even bother with them if they are coming to my gate and appear to be on insta. Ofc I've got my f1 to fwhatever rolled and my disruptor\webber is flashing as well....in the odd case that they are actually at the gate to fight as opposed to just clicking through on their insta. I give a token effort to target in that case because you never know, they might get nervous and click the gate too early themselves, thus requiring the to wait a short number of seconds.
Of course if they come to the gate without and insta.... 
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.04.22 19:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Zandramus
Originally by: Shamis Orzoz
Removing local solves a lot of problems. It's impossible to get the jump on anybody these days whether you are the pirate hunting prey, or you are the noble pirate hunter.
When I enter local in 0.0 most miners/npc'ers either insta-log or imediately warp to a safespot.
When I camp a gate, as soon as I see the 20 man blob jump into local to attack me and my 3 cronies, we immediately warp to a safespot.
Removing local means that people will fight, because they won't know what is going on fast enough to be able to log out or warp to a safespot before some sort of engagement occurs.
Yes I believe Local is a big problem and that problem is this....
There is no fog of war because of it...
the all seeing local lets everyone know you are there before you even uncloak at the gate.
CCP even on a battlefield you should be able to sneak up on someone to a point where they caould see you....
Do not show people in local unless
1. they talk in the local channel
2. they are within scanner range.
These 2 combined would make pvp much more interesting.
Right now all someone has to do is put you in their buddylist and they are instantly notified when you jump into local with the big green dot.
Zandramus
Just hypothetically speaking here, if local is removed, shouldn't people be able to fit cloaks with no penalties in regards to recal times etc? The point being, there has or should be a countersetup or tactic for everything in Eve. Keep setup and tactic King......
I think the trend towards "chance based" factoring of things and that deciding who wins isn't the smart move.
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2005.04.22 19:11:00 -
[24]
In the American Civil War, entire armies would sometimes march right past eachother, simply because they didn't know they were there.
If the "fog of war" is turned up to high, then it simply won't be possible to find and engage *anyone*. Right now you at least know when you've found a system with hostiles in it. Pull local, and you'll have to check every belt, every station and every planet and moon in every system the opposition claims. You won't be able to find anything at all.
Harry Voyager
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Zoner Diode
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Posted - 2005.04.22 19:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Steppa
4) A new system of warp signatures. I would LOVE to see this implemented. Whether its through the use of certain ships with superior innate systems or mods that actively detect while operating (skills can alter ranges and accuracy), I would like to be able to see warp signatures.
In this, I mean that with the right gear or skill, you would get a "ping" on your hud or scanner, showing the entrance or exit of a warping starship. With higher skills, you may even be able to see how far and what direction the ship is going. There are any number of ways to implement this, use your imagination.
A corpmate of mine forwarded the idea that three covert ops ships, with superior innate sensors, working in some sort of linked fashion (ganged and all activating the same mod, for instance) would be able to instantly triangulate any ship they found. This would be interesting, even given the current system, and would encourage more covert ops pilots to work together.
Imagine taking this one a step further and saying that covert ops ships could "generate" or "mask" the warp signatures.
Take a few coverts with you and create the signatures of 5 battleships. The opposing side would see, on their new scanners, that it appears that there is a fleet of like 7 ships coming into the system.
Meanwhile another fleet might actually have 5 battleships, but the coverts in that group are masking them to look like 5 frigates.
Now they would have to scramble some scouts to see if it really is 7 ships, or a decoy. Meanwhile the real assault fleet is moving in on the real target.
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Sparhawk
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Posted - 2005.04.22 19:28:00 -
[26]
Some Ideas:
You could limit the visibility of pilots by requiring you are within scan range, or they type in local chat. Perhaps an additional idea would be that as pilots within your group come in contact with more pilots and scan they appear in local only for those pilots within your gang. I would also like the option to block all local chats or convos like I can "auto reject" invitations. This would allow me to kill the chatter from safe spotted pilots.
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Muthsera
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Posted - 2005.04.22 19:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: News
Edited by: News on 22/04/2005 14:40:42
Originally by: Steppa
As long as I'm on this...FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, AT LEAST LET ME ACCESS THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY OUTSIDE THE STATION SO I CAN SEE IF ITS CLEAR TO UNDOCK!!! WHAT, THEY DON'T HAVE WINDOWS???
yarr
Edited to give credit to creator of the picture. Greme ftw!
Hahahahahahahahahahahah
SoonÖ
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Zandramus
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Posted - 2005.04.22 19:50:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Zandramus on 22/04/2005 19:52:28
Quote:
Just hypothetically speaking here, if local is removed, shouldn't people be able to fit cloaks with no penalties in regards to recal times etc? The point being, there has or should be a countersetup or tactic for everything in Eve. Keep setup and tactic King......
Actually I think there should be some kind of device that can de-cloak a cloaked ship.
Quote:
If the "fog of war" is turned up to high, then it simply won't be possible to find and engage *anyone*. Right now you at least know when you've found a system with hostiles in it. Pull local, and you'll have to check every belt, every station and every planet and moon in every system the opposition claims. You won't be able to find anything at all.
Turn it down too low and now you cant get anyone to engage you because you have 1 more ship than me. remember I said until within scanner range. so you could get your cov ops guy in the system who shouldnt show up on the scanner at all so he would never show in local, to start scanning belts and stations and such then based on his intel you warp your battlegroup in to the fight.
Zandramus
Zandramus
Parking Violations Officer
Geminate Division
S.A.S
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Steppa
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Posted - 2005.04.22 21:22:00 -
[29]
Surely. A mod that, when activated, sends out a "ping" like sonar, and reveals all cloaked items within its radius. Skills could increase this radius.
I really like the idea of a mod that would spoof scanners and such into believing that the ship is a different class than what it really is. If you really want to, make it a rule that you can only spoof bigger (frig appearing as cruiser) not smaller, although maybe the tech II versions could go down one class.
Also, I'd like to see something the size of an industrial, and about as slow, with an area of effect cloak. Something about the size of a medium warp bubble that cloaks all ships inside unless they activate ANY on/off mods, including boosters and such. Silent running, you know.
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Jayad
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Posted - 2005.04.22 22:05:00 -
[30]
Removing local really is the end game in ccp plans for decreased 0.0 intell.
They have lowered the power of the map already, thats a first step....more steps have to be taken. It would be unwise to shock the system too much therefore steps should be taken with increments.
Dont get me wrong I would love to see local modified for 0.0 and it appears like ccp want this too.
Think about alliance regional control
If local doesnt show 'silent' people in space then there must be solutions for alliances controling an area, AKA, System Scanners.
I find it therapeutic to discuss these 'imaginary' stuctures....sorry :). If Alliances want an intelligence network then these critical structures should be hard to locate by opposing forces.
1) They should be anchor-able anywhere
2) Use simple tiny amounts of fuel
3) Practically defenceless
4) Have an ok cost (20mill or something)
5) Provide acurate map data for owning alliance
That would be my perfect system scanner :) As far as im concerned that structure must be avilable before local is modified to show 'vocal pilots only'.
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