| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
157
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 07:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Stitcher wrote: I disagree completely. I am defined by my choices, my decisions and my opinions, not by the complicated strip of acid in each of my cells which itself is just a careful high-fidelity copy of the one that occupied my original body which in any case became an interesting smear of organic compounds on the leading edge of a smartbomb detonation about seven years ago.
Every time a pilot clones, they prove that the body and the DNA contained with in it are completely unimportant. It's the brain-state that matters, and there is nothing stopping me from using a blank "stock" clone not seeded with my genetic profile, if I so wish. The result would be functionally identical - Verin Hakatain, the infomorph would still be walking around and doing what he does, but instead of the handsome and hirsute appearance I have chosen to maintain (which is, I freely admit, an... "enhanced" version of the original),
You may be defined by your "choices", but the choices you make depend on your genes. Your abilities and limitations, gifts and flaws, both physical and mental, all are encoded in these strips of acid. Because these strips of acid encode proteins, and these proteins govern all functions of your organism, every second you live. All effing functions. All, without exceptions. And these include enzymes to generate and decompose neuromediators, that are working in synapses of your brain. Should you alter these proteines, and chemical reaction rates will alter as well, practically changing how your mind works.
Stitcher wrote: I'd be a pale featureless everyman.
That will fit exactly into egalitarianistic gallentean gray mass. J.Roden smiles than you say stuff like this. Bleargh. Disgusting.
Stitcher wrote: Now, I have considerable respect for my ancestors, as should all Caldari. But if I don't consider my DNA to be important for anything more than maintaining a certain physical appearance that I have, again, chosen to retain, then my regard for my ancestors is NOT for the DNA they contributed to my birth body, but instead for the culture they built, the history they wrote and the legacy I'm trying to find a place in.
This DNA is the best gift they bestowed on you, and this is much more than just physical appearance! Our history, culture and legacy show us, whom we were, and what we must strive to achieve. While our DNA defines who we are.
Stitcher wrote: As I said - it's the brain-state that matters, and I've even tweaked that with neural remapping technology in the last few years. There is nothing about my physical being that is not open to modification, augmentation and improvement. Has that changed me as a person? I would argue no more so than living from day to day did. A person is not a static and unchanging thing, our reality is an ever-moving moment of subjectivity, and I'm privileged to have a tighter and more direct control over that moment than is afforded to most people. I have greater freedom to choose who I am and wish to be, and have exercised it.
I would expect a fellow infomorph to at least grasp the concept of mind/body dualism and to recognise that it is the FORMER that matters.
Mind and body are bound together. Your mind can't think when there is no body: it is just data. Your body can't think when there is no mind: it is just meat. You can think of mind as a program and a body as a hardware to run this program. Will you agree, that you can't run quality program on a flawed hardware? |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
249
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 08:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
The spiral fingered arms of helicase will mould All life and thought, all beating hearts will yield. Yet in that lover's grasp, all thoughts enfold And blossom forth, old laws appealed To find new suns, new worlds, A brighter day, And not to lose ones path along the way. |

Natalcya Katla
Naqam Shaktipat Revelators
43
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 08:56:00 -
[33] - Quote
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:Down with this sort of thing. There is a science in the bedroom all its own, and it is beautiful. Not saying those born in tubes or whatever are less worthy, but if I'm to bring a child into this world I'd rather bear it myself. Personal preference, of course. If your personal preference is to gamble with the life of your offspring, a life you do not own, you are of course within your legal rights to do so. |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
288
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 12:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Your abilities and limitations, gifts and flaws, both physical and mental, all are encoded in these strips of acid.
Maybe at first, when we are still developing. But I am no longer an embryonic being. I could choose to abandon my DNA if I so chose, and doing so would have zero noticeable impact upon my abilities, limitations, gifts and flaws.
Besides, even if we go back to my first body, even that did not have entirely natural DNA. My parents paid for a course of in-utero genegineering that fixed my maximum body fat percentage, boosted my natural muscle tone and density, compensated for family histories of myopia, bipolar disorder, aortic stenosis and diabetes mellitus, and prevented a femoral anteversion before it ever even developed. They also made damn sure I'd inherit my father's blue eyes. My siblings underwent the precise same therapy. It won't be long before such antenatal genegineering programs begin to include the genetic components necessary for capsule use.
You can continue to assert that genes are important if you wish, but repeated assertion is not a route to factual accuracy. I can demonstrate through argument and reason why my genetic heritage simply isn't important. The best you can do is continue to assert your irrational belief that it is.
Our genes aren't important: they're a tool. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Alain Colcer
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 12:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
I find it entertaining to be told we have a problem, its like being a celebrity on GalNet, if there is drama, we are there as stars...
What better outcome for a Gallentean than to always be the center of people's focus! |

Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune Celestial Imperative
68
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 15:07:00 -
[36] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Mind and body are bound together. Your mind can't think when there is no body: it is just data.
Incorrect.
We Return |

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
683
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 15:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Unit XS365BT wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Mind and body are bound together. Your mind can't think when there is no body: it is just data.
Incorrect. We Return
Do you mean "Incorrect, a meat body is not required for a mind to think and a subsitute can be used" or "Incorrect, a mind is freely capable of thinking without being tied to a physical vessel of some kind."
If the latter, I am going to have to ask to see some proof. |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
158
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 15:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Your abilities and limitations, gifts and flaws, both physical and mental, all are encoded in these strips of acid. Maybe at first, when we are still developing. But I am no longer an embryonic being. I could choose to abandon my DNA if I so chose, and doing so would have zero noticeable impact upon my abilities, limitations, gifts and flaws. Well, then I'd like to remind our 'no longer embryonic being', that the moment you abandon your DNA, generation of proteins will stop, cells will stop working, and die, and so will you. Have a nice sleep.
Stitcher wrote:You can continue to assert that genes are important if you wish, but repeated assertion is not a route to factual accuracy. I can demonstrate through argument and reason why my genetic heritage simply isn't important. The best you can do is continue to assert your irrational belief that it is. So I was trying to demonstrate too. But whatever, it's your genes, do with them whatever you want. As for me, I am proud to be who I am.
Stitcher wrote: The only hardware that counts is the brain, and that gets precisely copied and reassembled upon cloning without regard for the genetic composition of the body around it.
I think I already told you that cells can't function without DNA. DNA affects proteines, proteines affect reactions, rate of reactions affect power of apprehension. There is a number of different neuromediators, affecting different signals. Thinking is not just a couple of electrical signals, it is a complex network of different and balanced chemical reactions, catalyzed by your proteins, synthesized from your DNA. Easy like that. You can copy current state of the brain, but further evolution will depend on DNA in brain cells.
|

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
158
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 15:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
Alain Colcer wrote:I find it entertaining to be told we have a problem, its like being a celebrity on GalNet, if there is drama, we are there as stars...
What better outcome for a Gallentean than to always be the center of people's focus!
I'd really prefer to have you in a center of my gun sight.
Unit XS365BT wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Mind and body are bound together. Your mind can't think when there is no body: it is just data.
Incorrect. We Return Syntax error.
Argument not found.
Retry, abort, ignore? |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
290
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
you're either deliberately misinterpreting me for what you think is comic effect, or you just suck at basic reading comprehension.
When I say "abandon my DNA" I don't mean abandon DNA in general. I mean abandon MY DNA. The particular sequence that I had when I was born. I don't have to have it. So long as my genetic code falls inside the spectrum of the human genome, it doesn't technically matter which specific genes I inherited and from whom I inherited them, other than for reasons of nostalgia.
The fact that I have Civire genes is completely irrelevant to the good functioning of my body. They are, effectively, cosmetic. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
306
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Stitcher you realize that trying to debate anything rationally with the likes of Kim is like trying to teach a pig chemistry; destined for failure from the start?
While I applaud your efforts it's more productive to assume that her mad ramblings are simply poor attempts at trolling and to ignore them. What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
290
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
It does actually serve a purpose anyway - I receive the benefit of being able to externalise my thought process and thereby come to a greater understanding of the subject, analyse my own arguments, see which ones stand up and which ones are flawed.
It's amazing how much you can learn about chemistry by trying to teach it to a pig. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
158
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:you're either deliberately misinterpreting me for what you think is comic effect, or you just suck at basic reading comprehension.
When I say "abandon my DNA" I don't mean abandon DNA in general. I mean abandon MY DNA. The particular sequence that I had when I was born. I don't have to have it. So long as my genetic code falls inside the spectrum of the human genome, it doesn't technically matter which specific genes I inherited and from whom I inherited them, other than for reasons of nostalgia.
The fact that I have Civire genes is completely irrelevant to the good functioning of my body. They are, effectively, cosmetic. Now you didn't understand me. Genes is not that how you look. It is how your cells function. Damn. You see, your look, or phenotype, is only based on your genes, and forms with you as you develop. And these genes, that your phenotype is based on, is a very tiny and insignificant part of your genotype! Inside we are much more different than outside. Moreover, there is a very limited number of genes, that code one property. Majority of them encode several different properties, and when you modify them, you make something better, and something worse. You can't become better in everything by genetic engineering. That's why there is a belief that each person should take a place, where he can bring most of benefit. That's why we are way more efficient than gallentean grey masses. That's why we will win. |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
290
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:41:00 -
[44] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:your phenotype is based on... a very tiny and insignificant part of your genotype!
...
That's why we are way more efficient than gallentean grey masses.
You know, I bet if you tried you could compress that contradiction down into a single sentence. Although you were impressively quick about it anyway.
You're right, the genes encoding your phenotype are an absolutely miniscule proportion of the human genome. But this miniscule proportion is what I was focusing on throughout. The entire intent of my statement is that my phenotype if you wish to be technically precise, is not relevant
You see, outside of the phenotype, there are not even a handful of significant genetic differences between Calari and Gallente. In fact the only two I can think of right now are that most ethnically Civire and Deteis people can safely metabolise the Kresh toxin, and most Gallente can metabolise lactose.
We are, in short, the same damn species. Our biggest differences are cultural, idealogical and philosophical, not genetic.
The fact that I have a square jaw, dark hair and pale skin are by FAR the biggest genetic differences separating me from a red-haired, tan-skinned, high-cheekbone'd Gallentean neighbour. These differences are greatly less significant than the fact that my ideals are meritocratic and collectivist, whereas theirs will probably be democratic and individualist.
You said it yourself - the phenotype is a tiny and insignificant part of the genome. Given that it is only the phenotype which actually distinguishes the difference between any two ethnic groups, it follows that the difference between ethnic groups is also tiny and insignificant.
Ergo, it is our philosophies, opinions, decisions and ethics that define us, not the smallest and most meaningless part of our genome. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
255
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
Verin Hakatain wrote: One of the women responsible for the modern starship jump drive can only speak thanks to the medical implants in the speech centers of her brain.
She is my hero :)
Regarding the conversation on genetics;
Kim-haani is not entirely incorrect in her assessments. The rate of dendrite growth, neurotransmitter production levels both inside and outside of the neuron, dendrite and axon branching habits, and other specifics have a very large influence on the day-to-day operation of the brain. Many of these traits are epigenetic and will switch on and off as determined by the presence of other marker proteins as well. While they don't have any impact on the momentary map shape, they do affect the edge weights of the map and are critical in determining a map vector.
You are thus both correct in your own way. Verin-haan is very correct in saying that the shape of his thoughts are the same regardless of his genetics, because the shape of his neurons is already determined. Kim-haani is likewise correct in stating that the day-to-day changes of her mind are heavily influenced by her genetics, which play part in how her neurons branch and develop new synapses.
It is also worthwhile to note that, while we do have a genome distinct from the Gallenteans, this distinction is trivial. Our differences will be dominated by environment and culture.
As in many questions, the needed answer is as much a function of perspective as it is of analysis. |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
290
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:You are thus both correct in your own way. Verin-haan is very correct in saying that the shape of his thoughts are the same regardless of his genetics, because the shape of his neurons is already determined. Kim-haani is likewise correct in stating that the day-to-day changes of her mind are heavily influenced by her genetics, which play part in how her neurons branch and develop new synapses.
Indeed, though the differences between ethnic groups are so minute that if I were to, for example, have myself a genetically Thukker body assembled and were to move into it for a year, I very much doubt there would be any detectable difference in my personality after one year that was statistically distinguishable from the changes brought on by simply being alive for one year.
Not that I plan to try such an experiment. I'm not that liberal. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
255
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 16:58:00 -
[47] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Indeed, though the differences between ethnic groups are so minute that if I were to, for example, have myself a genetically Thukker body assembled and were to move into it for a year, I very much doubt there would be any detectable difference in my personality after one year that was statistically distinguishable from the changes brought on by simply being alive for one year.
Not that I plan to try such an experiment. I'm not that liberal.
That's very true! To be honest, I'd be surprised if you could manage to specify a "Thukker" genotype with any amount of clarity. The edges on our maps are sharp, but the edges in our blood are hardly edges at all. |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
158
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:27:00 -
[48] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:You said it yourself - the phenotype is a tiny and insignificant part of the genome. Given that it is only the phenotype which actually distinguishes the difference between any two ethnic groups, it follows that the difference between ethnic groups is also tiny and insignificant. No-no-no. Differences simply can't be localized in such tiny area. They are spread all across the whole genome (ref: "Basic Biochemistry for Foot Soldiers"). Of course, in some places changes are minimal, in others - much greater concentration. But would you agree, that all differences just simply can't by some sort of magic localize in a specified area of genome, the only one, that we can see? We look different because it is the small part of changing genome is seen. Much more differences are left unseen.
|

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
291
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
We aren't talking a locality, we're talking a percentage. A tiny, insignificant percentage.
And no, much of the genome in fact doesn't vary by any sufficiently significant amount as to cause any two ethnic groups to be more than arbitrarily biochemically different. my biochemistry works in more or less exactly the same way as yours, which in turn works in much the same way as Jacus Roden's. We are talking an allele here, a base pair there. nothing huge.
In fact, if I were to lay your genome alongside Jacus Roden's and compare them side by side then the differences between them would represent such a tiny percentage of their total information that a statistician could be forgiven for declaring them to be exactly the same. The difference would fall well inside the standard deviation considered acceptable by most fields for declaring that two seperate objects are effectively identical.
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
158
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:43:00 -
[50] - Quote
How your phenotypes are different, your other functions differ as well. Although in terms of sequences these differences are tiny and minimal, they still form your phenotype, they form rate of chemical reactions, catalyzed by your enzymes. Even a single aminoacid in enzyme can change reaction rate greatly, making it faster or slower. Or completely stopping it. Visual differences is only the tip of the iceberg. |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
291
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:47:00 -
[51] - Quote
You'll notice that I specified "Arbitrarily" different.
Are you REALLY going to claim that minor percentage changes in the reaction rate of certain processes makes more difference to a person's identity than, for example, whether they are an Atheist, a Wayist or Amarr? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
685
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:48:00 -
[52] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:How your phenotypes are different, your other functions differ as well. Although in terms of sequences these differences are tiny and minimal, they still form your phenotype, they form rate of chemical reactions, catalyzed by your enzymes. Even a single aminoacid in enzyme can change reaction rate greatly, making it faster or slower. Or completely stopping it. Visual differences is only the tip of the iceberg.
Did you know that your clones don't have your DNA until you've been in them for a while? Fun fact. I don't really understand it either, but that's the reason we can use basically any spare biomass for a clone. |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
291
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 17:52:00 -
[53] - Quote
True enough. The best clones are run up out of human cadavers, too. Seeing as the cloning companies won't tell you who it originally came from, there's every likelihood that most if not all of the clones I've worn over the years were originally of a non-Civire ethnicity. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
685
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
It also sort of indicates that the infomorph has a lot more importance to physicality than we previously assumed. It was thought that your DNA indicated, at least in part, who you were, but there appears to be something about who you are that sets your DNA, and we just weren't able to see the causal relationship in the correct direction until we figured out how to pull our minds out of our bodies and stick them in some new meat.
A whole new meaning to mind over matter? |

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
291
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:01:00 -
[55] - Quote
uh... no. They just infect the body with a genegineering retrovirus cultured from your stock DNA when you order it. It takes a few months to completely finish working. Seeing as most capsuleers will be gone only a few weeks at most before needing to activate the clone, that means that most clones never become completely genetically written.
All of which is prepared alongside the surgical treatments to cosmetically configure the clone to your physical specifications when you need a new one. They put the stock clone on the operating table and infect it with the retrovirus before you're even out of the CRU facility's showers. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
685
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:04:00 -
[56] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:uh... no. They just infect the body with a genegineering retrovirus cultured from your stock DNA when you move into it. It takes a few months to completely finish working.
I didn't know that, and I retract my remarks. |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
158
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 18:12:00 -
[57] - Quote
*Throws a slim volume of "Basic Biochemistry for Foot Soldiers" at camera drone and slams a door* |

Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
256
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 19:19:00 -
[58] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:*Throws a slim volume of "Basic Biochemistry for Foot Soldiers" at camera drone and slams a door*
I have managed to read some of that! It is a lovely little overview, though perhaps a little odd in the topics it chooses to focus on. Good for you, for pursuing a rounded education! If you like the Foot Solder Science series, I would be happy to loan you some of my own. The ones that were gifted to me are:
Basic Linguistics for Foot Solders: The Speech Hierarchy Basic Physics for Foot Soldiers: Beyond Boot Camp Basic Logic for Foot Soldiers: When Two Wrongs Make Right Basic Economics for Foot Soldiers: Spoils of War Basic Sociology for Foot Soldiers: Behaviours of Victory Basic Evolution for Foot Soldiers: Descent of Man Basic Politics for Foot Soldiers: The Wages of Hedonism
|

Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
292
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 19:44:00 -
[59] - Quote
An observation: Merely being written in a book is not a guarantee of factual accuracy.
Besides which, what you're doing is telling a man with doctorate-equivalent qualifications in medical nanotechnology, microbiology and ATLS that your basic primer has given you a more rounded biochemical education. I appreciate that I am not a doctor of biochemistry, but I'm certainly better-educated on the subject than I would be if I had only read "Basic Biochemistry for Foot Soldiers". I read scientific journals over my morning coffee, for the Wind's sake.
This, in turn, is no guarantee of factual accuracy of course. It's so hard to resist the pull of the "appeal to authority" fallacy sometimes. I notice Pilot Kim did not. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
|

Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune Celestial Imperative
68
|
Posted - 2012.11.26 21:03:00 -
[60] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Unit XS365BT wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Mind and body are bound together. Your mind can't think when there is no body: it is just data.
Incorrect. We Return Syntax error. Argument not found. Retry, abort, ignore?
As it seems apparent that pilot Kim is incapable of research, we shall endeavour to explain in simple terms.
Todo Kirkinen, CEO of Zainou Biotech does not have a biological form, yet he retains conciousness and the ability to control the aforementioned corporation.
CONCORD scientists successfully created a codebreaker module that incorporated the apparently still living head of a sansha true slave.
These are two direct instances where the mind of an entity continued to function without the body. Therefore our simple statement refuting your somewhat strange claim that the mind requires a body to think was correct. Our statement did not require an argument as it was simply a fact.
We would also question your theory with a hypothetical query of our own. Pilot Kim, given that you claim that a mind without a body cannot think, do you believe that the intelectual capacity of a mind decrease if it's body loses a limb?
We Return |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |