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Hicksimus
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
49
   |
Posted - 2011.10.04 14:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't own any capital ships of any kind to save some trolling time. This is also not a post saying game balance is bad.
If the point of playing a game is to strive for the best you can get then there should be some amazing items that you just hope some day you can get. If these items don't exist in a game it becomes the equivalent of choosing the right suit(WoW).
Ex. Super Carriers and Titans are not the real issue, they are awesome ships and the equivalent to some of the amazing creations of war in real life, they should actually be buffed in some ways. This is where some parallels need to be made.
Portability: Almost none of the amazingly powerful experimental weaponry of war is more portable than its weaker counterparts but in EvE we have created the reverse, our giant weapons of war are more mobile than subcaps thanks to bridges and jump drives. So should we nerf bridges and jump drives? NO, these features should be high cost. If you want to jump a capital in to a system the cost of lighting that cyno should be large perhaps 30+ million a pop. Capital ships should not be a ship that any 1 year old toon with the skills can pilot there should be a real cost to owning a capital ship.
Cost: Not just financial/material cost, opportunity cost and time cost are completely wrong. The super capitals should be 6 month projects for large alliances(More materials, long assembly times for components, long and involved blueprint work) there shouldn't be hundreds of supercaps in the game there should be an extremely small number and training times for them should reflect how rare they are. When you see one the story should be omg I saw a ship the size of a station it was amazing not omg I shot a cruiser and 10 giant cut in half prorators appeared out of nowhere. All of the giant weapons of war have been made in 1's or 2's or 1+spare parts, this is what makes them amazing and what makes them interesting and the same would happen in EvE if the biggest weapons where awesome and rare.
This all boils down to cost in the end. The level of utility you get from owning a super capital relative to the cost of the ship is very imbalanced.
CCP is going down the slow road to destruction by taking the easiest route to satisfy whiners. The problem is that the easy route is a bandaid fix and it lowers the value of the game for many while making EvE more like WoW compared to my suggestions above which makes EvE a true player driven game that rewards goal driven players.
Don't interpret this as a post against nerfing either, fixing 90% webs by making them 1 billion isk would have been a terrible idea versus cutting down the web amount.
Anybody care to discuss?
TLDR: Nice things should be expensive not always nerfed. Do you realize they are making EvE like WoW instead of EvE like EvE? |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
147
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 14:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
How is nerfing one type of ship thats blatantly unbalanced turning Eve into WoW? People throw that comparison around way too much.
Just because its expensive doesn't mean it should be nerf proof. Hell if anything the ships should have never been added to the game, that way we don't have to go through this balancing act when it comes to supers ever 1-2 years.
You also have to realize that cost in the end won't matter, and if thats the basis then it will cause the super rich to have supreme power without anyway for someone else to counter. This is what we are seeing now and why they are being changed. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 14:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Brooks, way to end the thread before it even started! Sheesh, how are the haters gonna hate now? 
...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
315
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 14:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Because nerfs are good and commonly the best way of dealing with balance issues. It is pretty much the only solution when dealing with overpowered items.
Also, cost is not really a factor in balancing in a game with infinitely renewable resources, and becomes especially worthless in a game where you want variety in your competitive options.
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
147
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 14:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mendolus wrote:Brooks, way to end the thread before it even started! Sheesh, how are the haters gonna hate now?
His argument is actually a lot better then most I've seen. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 14:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Mendolus wrote:Brooks, way to end the thread before it even started! Sheesh, how are the haters gonna hate now? His argument is actually a lot better then most I've seen.
True, he has presented a fairly well thought out argument for sure.
...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
AureoLion
Etoilles Mortant Ltd.
Solyaris Chtonium
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 14:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Because if you have 100 competing things, 2 are overpowered and 10 are underpowered, nerfing the 2 overpowered things will bring a state of 90 competing ships, while buffing the 10 underpowered will still have 2 competing ships.
And buffing 98 things instead of nerfing 2 is ridicolous. |
Hicksimus
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
The first 3 posts are people not reading what I wrote, instead they have applied what they wanted me to say and commented on what they imagine I just said.
See the part where I said costs other than financial and material? It does not matter how rich you are you cannot buy time....yet. If you want to pay for 50 accounts and make one yourself go for it at least you have to put in some effort. I'm talking about barriers to entry, they are one of the most effective strategies for shaping consumption in real life from controlling alcohol and cigarette use to limiting the number of people who accept the free pop they have won by making them log in to your website to redeem. If you don't make people put in an effort to get something they will take all of whatever it is they can get often even when they have absolutely no use for whatever they are taking. If you take a superior ship and make it fairly easy to get in to you end up with the problem we have right now.
Also for that first comment "How is nerfing one type of ship thats blatantly unbalanced turning Eve into WoW? People throw that comparison around way too much."
Because we should have ships that are incredibly powerful, WoW is for people that want balance and friendliness. EvE is for people that really want to compete to be the best and competition is never fair. The issue is that there are too many super capitals due to a limited number of barriers to getting them. If an alliance has 2 titans instead of 100 they can still stomp 10 battleships but those 10 battleships are pretty safe because it'll take 6 months to get another titan if they happen to be bait.
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ROXGenghis
Perkone
Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2011.10.04 15:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Two thoughts:
1) It has been shown repeatedly in the history of Eve that cost is not an effective balance mechanism. For serious players and alliances, ISK is nearly limitless. Devs have acknowledged this.
2) Both nerfing and buffing are required to achieve long-term balance. If nothing was ever nerfed, a constant cycle of buffing would, in the fullness of time, lead to all ships being uber uber. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
315
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:The first 3 posts are people not reading what I wrote, instead they have applied what they wanted me to say and commented on what they imagine I just said. No, you said exactly what I read that you said, and you got the answer this reading deserved.
Quote:See the part where I said costs other than financial and material? It doesn't matter. Overpowered is overpowered no matter what the cost (no, not even time), and overpowered is bad regardless. The proper response to overpowered is to nerf it.
Cost is not an excuse for leaving unbalanced things in the game.
Cost does not fix the problem that the only counter to N ships of type X is N+1 ships of type X. In fact, at that point, cost is actually a further worsening factor in the imbalance.
Quote:Because we should have ships that are incredibly powerful GǪand we do. Said ships must still be balanced with the rest of the game. The need for incredibly powerful ships (a questionable need to begin with, but let's not go there) is not a sufficient reason to have ships that are unbalanced (mainly because there are no sufficient, or even remotely good, reasons for having unbalanced ships).
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
10
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Posted - 2011.10.04 15:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:The first 3 posts are people not reading what I wrote, instead they have applied what they wanted me to say and commented on what they imagine I just said.
See the part where I said costs other than financial and material?
Even if you changed the building time to 6 months, it would only means that alliances start production 4 months earlier, and build more of them at the same time. In the end your proposal would achieve nothing.
Besides, there already exist hundreds of titans and possibly upward to a thousand supercarriers. What are you going to do about those?
Well, whatever, you can't convince CCP of adopting your POV now, because the list of capital changes was given today for approval to the CSM, and they seem to be approving. I don't have any detail (NDA and all that), but it seems the pro-elite supercap pvpers will shed many tears.
I look forward to it.
The dev blog is probably a few weeks away. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
148
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Again time and money go hand in hand when your talking about a free market and infinite materials. So long as supers can be sold openly there will be people outside of a certain alliance who will be able to make them, then turn around and sell them to those who are rich. Not only that while creating 1 super may take 6 months so long as you can make multiples at once you are in a sense removing that time barrier, since you are only limited by how much money you can invest in super production.
As far as your last comment Eve is more about Rock, Paper, Scissors. There SHOULD be balance and any one type of ship has another ship that can counter it. Your analogy to WoW again is wrong. While there is a reasonable amount of balance, there are still hardcoded limitations when it comes to balance. For example a Lvl 10 cannot kill a Lvl 60 no matter how good he is or how geared he is. Where as in Eve you can have a 100m SP pilot who's flying a BS and be killed by a 10m SP pilot in a cruiser. Why is that? Balance and the fact that more expense and bigger doesn't always mean better.
See I believe you have the same ideology that I believe CCP had when they first brought in supers. " Oh, don't worry guys they will be super expensive and take a long time to build. You won't see many of them flying around." Fast forward 6 years and we are seeing 200 man super fleets. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:...because it'll take 6 months to get another titan if they happen to be bait.
I'm sorry, but making stuff take even longer to manufacture is excessively boring sounding. This is a game, I'd rather they nerf ships so they are not so overpowered and people can continue to enjoy the game content itself as opposed to making capitals take years to build instead, thus limiting the actual ability of the subscribers to enjoy game content.
The answer should never be "Let's make super capitals take forever and a day to manufacture so fewer people can enjoy the content of the game they are paying to play"
...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2011.10.04 15:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
I still can't wrap my head around the idea that you enjoy things you HAVE as opposed
to enjoying things you DO.
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Hicksimus
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
There is a game called Supreme Commander(1 or forged alliance) not SupCom 2 it feels like a game you guys would love, all fluffy and boring. In the first 2 versions there are tiers 1-3 and experimental. It's like frigate, battlecruiser, battleship, several Nyx welded together. The game has infinite resources and assuming you hold your ground infinite time. Much like EvE.
So it's going to be a ****** game right? Because I'll make a 1 man army unit and win. Wrong, 1) it's assembled out in the open, my enemy can see it, 2) it takes 10+ minutes to construct with a well developed resource chain and puts a huge strain on the resources. This means good players rarely use them, it's a huge risk and cripples the regular production effort while it's cooking. Assuming you don't lose out on regular production resources your enemy can still see it and stop you. If you have a super ship in EvE sitting in a pos slowly getting put together in the open over 6 months you can't deny that is going to balance this bullshit about not being able to balance the rich.
EvE is too casual, there was a time when it was about having a vision but CCP constantly killed that. Things like BPO's, jump bridges, everything to cater to building power houses has been provided and the end game is a bunch of bitching and a declining player population. But instead of stopping it CCP keeps catering to the big guys and making high SP players more bored and shafted.
How about you guys that believe making them slightly worse explain how this is going to make balance as more and more players get in them and the blobs just get bigger? This is the end game of your solution and it's useless. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
The problem is that your supposed elite players are self-deprecating.
Your solution can only support so many subscribers and CCP has already exceeded that level of subscriptions years ago, not only in overhead costs, but investitures.
Your solution is no longer possible, get over it.
...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
148
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
You do realize that supers do take months to build and are in things called CSAAs which are clearly visible? Add to the fact that POSs can be destroyed? Thats just to build the ship itself. We aren't even talking about doing the research on the BPOS, building all the Cap Components, or doing all the logistics to move it out to the POS. All of which takes a large amount of time and effort.
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Cozmik R5
Dock 94
27
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Posted - 2011.10.04 15:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Because everything is overpowered in this game. Even money.
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
385
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:
Anybody care to discuss?
TLDR: Nice things should be expensive not always nerfed. Do you realize they are making EvE like WoW instead of EvE like EvE?
Sure. Things get buffed as well, but people take the buffs for granted within 24 hours of them going live, yet they hold a grudge about the nerfs forever.
For instance, with respect to supercapitals, even after the worst proposed nerf they'll still be far better than they were before the buff in 2009.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Hicksimus
Mom's Friendly Spaceship Company
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 15:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
This is interesting.
Do you guys actually believe that if it takes 12 super carriers next year to do exactly what 10 do this year they will have somehow have fixed the imbalance? Especially because as you've said resources are infinite.....your own arguments confirm that your own balance idea is terrible.
Oh well, I'll watch CCP ignore how humans act and how other problems with humans are fixed while the average server population dies off from lack of interest created via poor industrial mechanics masked as the need to nerf everything while ignoring the actual cause of the problem.
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Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
148
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thats why they should be removed(changed to tier 2 caps) or create a effective counter towards them. Nerfing them is just a short term solution.
|
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
96
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
irrc the goal is to make super carriers not rofl stomp anything at all, super carriers should be carriers with more fire power and tank, currently super carriers have the most fire power and 2nd most tank
100 battleships should be able to take on 10 super carriers. right now i dont think its possible because the endly supercarrier RR chain and the what, 150 heavy drones that a super cap can release at one time will kill even the best BS pilots. |
Karim alRashid
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:11:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think you're slightly exaggerating with those 150 heavy drones. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:This is interesting.
Do you guys actually believe that if it takes 12 super carriers next year to do exactly what 10 do this year they will have somehow have fixed the imbalance? Especially because as you've said resources are infinite.....your own arguments confirm that your own balance idea is terrible.
Oh well, I'll watch CCP ignore how humans act and how other problems with humans are fixed while the average server population dies off from lack of interest created via poor industrial mechanics masked as the need to nerf everything while ignoring the actual cause of the problem.
I'm gonna have to file you under the same crowd that believed the nano nerf would kill the game.
Enjoy being wrong.
...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
315
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hicksimus wrote:How about you guys that believe making them slightly worse explain how this is going to make balance as more and more players get in them and the blobs just get bigger? Because making them worse means more people can get in them without making the fleet all that much better. Making supers worse instead lets all those people choose other things and, in fact, makes not choosing them and instead going for a varied and well-mixed fleet a better choice.
Quote:Do you guys actually believe that if it takes 12 super carriers next year to do exactly what 10 do this year they will have somehow have fixed the imbalance? No, but then that is not what changing them is about. The trick is rather the opposite: 10 then could probably do what 10 can do now without causing much problem GÇö the real meat is in what others can do to those 10 ships now compared to in the futureGǪ
Quote:This is the end game of your solution and it's useless. Fun fact: there is no end-game in EVE.
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
60
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Because nerfs are good and commonly the best way of dealing with balance issues. It is pretty much the only solution when dealing with overpowered items. Also, cost is not really a factor in balancing in a game with infinitely renewable resources, and becomes especially worthless in a game where you want variety in your competitive options.
I don't concur that nerf is always the best option. It is the easiest way out tho, but some balancing issues require a much, much more complex solution than nerf.
that said, the OP sounds like he's quite mad about supers nerf.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote]
ain't that right |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
148
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Fun fact: there is no end-game in EVE.
Oh but there is. Many just haven't realized it yet.
Ill give you a clue.. WarGames.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
316
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Tippia wrote:Fun fact: there is no end-game in EVE. Oh but there is. Many just haven't realized it yet. Ill give you a clue.. WarGames. That is not an end-game GÇö that's how you win. Completely different thingGǪ 
GÇöGÇöGÇö
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum
148
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:Tippia wrote:Fun fact: there is no end-game in EVE. Oh but there is. Many just haven't realized it yet. Ill give you a clue.. WarGames. That is not an end-game GÇö that's how you win. Completely different thingGǪ
Generally speaking reaching the endgame means you've won. 
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
388
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 16:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Karim alRashid wrote:I think you're slightly exaggerating with those 150 heavy drones.
He's actually understating. 10 Nyx could theoretically deploy 250 heavy drones between them.
EDIT: Oh, sorry, he switched to "a supercap" for that part.
Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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