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Macel	Posted - 2005.04.27 19:50:00 - [1] Edited by: Macel on 27/04/2005 19:50:54 I know nobody important ever actually reads these posts, but here's my opinion on what should be done with missiles, which in some cases are way too powerful, and in others are in serious need of a boost. The simplest solution, in my opinion, is to make torpedos/missiles a secondary weapon. Switch caldari ships to primarily hybrid weapons. Put at most one or two torpedo-sized launchers the biggest ships... This will limit them to a secondary role rather than the primary weapon of any ship, while still keeping them. If you want caldari to remain the torpedo "specialists" - make them the only ships with the option to use two launchers instead of just one or none. This way, no one will be using torps heavily enough to either A: Be considered overpowered or B: whine about their weaknesses in certain situations. They'll still be an integral part of combat, however... If you wanted to make it more interesting, you could make missiles in general do a lot more damage than they currently do - but make the ammo much more expensive, and make the launchers non-reloadable...
Meridius	Posted - 2005.04.27 20:26:00 - [2] Edited by: Meridius on 27/04/2005 20:26:19 Kind of unfair having 2 races be masters of hybrids. Lasers only get bonus's on Amarr ships, projectiles get bonus's on Minmatar ships. Train hybrid and boom you're set for Caldari and Gallente? No. Missles are unique. Killing unique things is bad. I'd much rather see CCP work on making missles balanced yet still unique. ________________________________________________________
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.04.27 23:18:00 - [3] Yup, i'd also like to see missile ballance... because some ppl did invest in those skills. Making that a secondary weapon is no good. But raven---> rail platform would solve many thing. (and i did explain this many times)
Free4You	Posted - 2005.04.27 23:32:00 - [4] Make a new type of weaponary then. It'll even give the "new" players a chance to be as good as the rest.
CDLPeacemaker	Posted - 2005.04.27 23:50:00 - [5] And all caldari exclusive pilots are now screwed.
jbob2000	Posted - 2005.04.27 23:56:00 - [6] Just give torps an arming time. Maybe ten seconds before they can actually do damage? If they hit a target within that ten seconds then the missile does no damage. ----------------------------------------------- CANADIAN
Weirda	Posted - 2005.04.28 00:44:00 - [7] Originally by: jbob2000 Just give torps an arming time. Maybe ten seconds before they can actually do damage? If they hit a target within that ten seconds then the missile does no damage. Could be wrong - but think they tried this and it was disasterous... along with non-working missile agility code... Probably wrong though... Calvert? Merdius? Allowishous? bueller? Anyone? -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSION>
Meridius	Posted - 2005.04.28 01:21:00 - [8] Originally by: Weirda Originally by: jbob2000 Just give torps an arming time. Maybe ten seconds before they can actually do damage? If they hit a target within that ten seconds then the missile does no damage. Could be wrong - but think they tried this and it was disasterous... along with non-working missile agility code... Probably wrong though... Calvert? Merdius? Allowishous? bueller? Anyone? It was quite bad yes. Missle arming times are stupid since basically anyone you fight against has a range based win button ________________________________________________________
Hyey	Posted - 2005.04.28 01:32:00 - [9] Edited by: Hyey on 28/04/2005 01:31:57 Originally by: LUKEC Yup, i'd also like to see missile ballance... because some ppl did invest in those skills. Making that a secondary weapon is no good. But raven---> rail platform would solve many thing. (and i did explain this many times) Yea you explained it many a time but the arguements had so many holes in them it made me cry. Raven cant be a railboat without screweing up mechanics with gallente, ive had many reasons why this is so as well. It wont work. BTW arming time for a torpedo is kind of stupid as it is a shortrange weapon after all... kinda destroys the entire point of it. ~~ Hyey I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
Hyey	Posted - 2005.04.28 01:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Macel Edited by: Macel on 27/04/2005 19:50:54 I know nobody important ever actually reads these posts, but here's my opinion on what should be done with missiles, which in some cases are way too powerful, and in others are in serious need of a boost. The simplest solution, in my opinion, is to make torpedos/missiles a secondary weapon. Switch caldari ships to primarily hybrid weapons. Put at most one or two torpedo-sized launchers the biggest ships... This will limit them to a secondary role rather than the primary weapon of any ship, while still keeping them. If you want caldari to remain the torpedo "specialists" - make them the only ships with the option to use two launchers instead of just one or none. This way, no one will be using torps heavily enough to either A: Be considered overpowered or B: whine about their weaknesses in certain situations. They'll still be an integral part of combat, however... If you wanted to make it more interesting, you could make missiles in general do a lot more damage than they currently do - but make the ammo much more expensive, and make the launchers non-reloadable... No they wont be an integral part of combat anymore, they arent used much as it is except by tempests and anything using defenders, torpedos are not the weapon of choice except for scorps/ravens so whats the point of making them hybrid. If you INCIST on making the raven a god damn gunboat you have to make a new weapon for caldari because having two races master in hybrid means you get a half-ass megathron, what part of this can you people NOT get through your HEADS ~~ Hyey I just payed 15 dollars this month just to be able to respond on the forums... stupid cancellation error.
OVERCOPES 1	Posted - 2005.04.28 03:08:00 - [11] Edited by: OVERCOPES 1 on 28/04/2005 03:09:56 i may be wrong,but arent caldari hybrid masters (for long range) and gallante blasters? hense the range bonus alot of the caldari ships get.
Justin Cody	Posted - 2005.04.28 05:14:00 - [12] Edited by: Justin Cody on 28/04/2005 05:15:04 caldari are rail users. both rails and blasters are types of hybrids. it is kinda weird since that would be like minmatar being pulse laser users and amarr beam laser users. Gallente are better with rails than caldari tho cause of the damage mods. Caldari are supposed to be missile users. Advantage of missiles Consistent damage variable payload no need to track the target like a turret FoF's work while dampened or jammed no cap use Disadvantage of missiles Time to target (at any range) smart bombs destroy them (best vs torps) easily evaded by turret ships (they just warp off after pounding on ya) defenders shoot down other missiles (no similar system for turret defense) Turret Advantage: Instant damage Good at any range with the right ammo more range than missiles (when boosted) Disadvantage Have to track Use cap (except projectiles) less variable payload can be jammed
Frank Horrigan	Posted - 2005.04.28 09:24:00 - [13] bah i hate hybrids.. they suck so bad its not funny... A 250mm carbide with iron L hits like 10-15 dammage its pathetic... i tried dual 250mms on a dominix and it took me hours to kill simple crusiers... No matter what kind of railgun I use they always seem to do terrible dammage.. just pitifull Im kind of angry for wasting sp on gallente bs and railguns Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Bhaal What has turned out better than expected? Everything. Remember, we're from Iceland. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) This i
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.04.28 10:06:00 - [14] Whith making Caldari ships gunboats, I have to agree that it will make Caldari, once more, part of the whole Gallente Federation concept. And hear this: we of the Gallente Federation do not want them back! As for making missiles a secondary weapon common to all, and then making Caldari a new weapon type: Hybrids -> Particle Accelerator (Gallente) Railgun (Caldari) While it is extremely unlikely and also... well... poor design, this will serve to make Gallente much more close ranged. Particle Accelerators would have close and middle range only, while railguns (and this is where bad design comes in) would have middle to long range (can you say "Amarr"?). As for the different countermeasures of missiles and turrets: Missile, high slot and missile hardpoint - Defender Turret, medium slot - Tracking Disruptor Missile, high slot - Smartbomb Turret, medium slot - ECM (and RSD) Missile (partial), medium slot - ECM (and RSD) Turret, no module - high transversal velocity Missile, no module - high escape velocity As you can see, the number of countermeasures are similar, but extremely different in execution. For instance, the speed countermeasure is exactly the opposite for missiles than for turrets. Another example is how the countermeasures are distributed, essentially countering missiles you must (hypothetically) sacrifice damage. In reality most ships that has a launcher hardpoint left tend to only have enough CPU for a rocket launcher. The best solution for missiles, in my oppinion, is to make similar changes to these: * Missiles and rockets do part kinetic and part other damage * Missiles are increased greatly in speed * Rockets (and torps) are optimized for within-web-range combat * The launchers are divided by two types: close range (rocket) and long range (missile) * The kinetic part of damage is dependant on the ships signature radius * The misc. damage is dependant on the ships actual size * Total damage is scaled in some fashion dependant on velocity compared to the missile * Heavy Rockets are introduced to take Light Missile's place in Assault Launcher (these launchers are currently completely useless) - Caldari do the primary damage they are supposed to - Caldari still do variable damage - Tacklers will not be doomed if the Raven gets a lock - Any ship sitting still will be hit for near 100% damage - Caldari get to boast with Wrecking, too! - Missiles are not made into a fourth turret - Missiles, but not rockets, can be used for ranged fighting - End of the bloody annoying "Oh, a Blasterthron, I'll just change to torps instead and PWN him" so that Caldari, too, get to decide "long or short range?" at fitting. - Target Painters also boost Caldari damage P.S. Fix Target Painters, while you are at it! They stack wrong with MWDs... -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.04.28 10:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Free4You Make a new type of weaponary then. like balanced missiles? Death to the Galante
Ralitge boyter	Posted - 2005.04.28 11:45:00 - [16] Edited by: Ralitge boyter on 28/04/2005 11:51:37 Edited by: Ralitge boyter on 28/04/2005 11:47:15 Trying to make it look like english.... To keep some reality in this plan of having missiles eighter long, short or mid ranged. The problem is that currently missiles have a certain range and they are accurate within this range longer than that range makes them go poof as they reach flight time shorter than that range and they will hit barring desturuction or being out run till their fligth time has elapsed. I think doing the following migh be a good plan, simulates reallife to some extend: This goes missile/rocket bays. - One that will hit accurate at close range but the bigger the distance the less accurate it will be and after flight time it goes poof - One that will hit accurate at mid range but close and long range chances of hitting are a lot smaller, after fligh time the thing goes poof - One that will hit good at long range but short and mid it will not be very accurate after flight time the missile goes poof Missiles will have to go past the circle of ther accurate range after that they do less and less damage... So trying to out run them within their effective range will still make the chance of a good hit the biggest instead leaving that circle will mean less chance of high damage. Now then you have a way of making the missile boat people choose before they leave and of course missiles of the T2 type will have a bigger range in which they will have a good chance of doing some damage. Every one will have the same posibility of out running defending and or running before the missile hits. Plus target painters could also benifit the missile pilots as the chance of hitting is improved if the missile can "see" the target better. It is a very simple thing to implement at least it should be and not so very impacting as any of the other proposed changes. Missiles might even be created that do mixed damage like explosive and heat but will only do half the damage for both damage types as one of the missiles dedicated to a single damage type. But that is a whole new swing of the nerfbat if you ask me.
Manyara	Posted - 2005.04.28 12:49:00 - [17] I agree something needs do be done about missiles. Ravens are the only ships i truly fear. The 'wrecking hit' theory seems to be a good one, I think the problem is fewer skills are required for a pilot to be able to use missiles and torps compared to a turret (there are several generic skills that are essential to becoming a good turret user). However upping the skill requirements will undoubtedly cause outcry. How about this: Every other weapon type has a long a short range: Amarr: lasers and pulses Minmatar: autocannons and artillary Gallente: blasters and rails. So do the same thing with missiles, with different launchers for short and long range, so caldari have and 'optimal' just like everyone else. Keep the damage the same by all means, but give torps and effectif range of 15-25 km or so and cruise missiles 50-60+ km. (numbers off the top of my head, maybe those exact ones wont work, but you get the idea) This way, missiles can get wrecking hits, and setups have to be thought about more carefuly. instead of a bunch of seige launchers and a hold full of cruises and torps, itl be either torp launchers or cruise launchers. Opinions please, not flames. ---------------- How would you like your ass?
Pagefault	Posted - 2005.04.28 13:14:00 - [18] Every1 who trained Caldari (i did) knew the advantages and disadvantages... Every1 who expected to hit other players with torps at 100km.. mh well deserves not to hit em Every1 crying for a change of rule confesses: I trained the wrong thing, now change the rules because i'm a dumbass. Thats true for every whiner crying for a nerf. Always.
bigmuff mcgraw	Posted - 2005.05.02 14:22:00 - [19] Edited by: bigmuff mcgraw on 02/05/2005 14:42:54 missiles rock!
bigmuff mcgraw	Posted - 2005.05.02 14:42:00 - [20] leave missiles alone u idiots. im sick to death of hearing people whinging n moaning about nerfs for torps, they dont pwn everything, they arent too powerful, ive seen more damage from lasers than any types of damage from torps so stfu u donkeys and train more skills or get a new ship ffs nuff said flame away anti torp donkeys, cos i dont give a xxxx!
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.05.02 15:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Frank Horrigan bah i hate hybrids.. they suck so bad its not funny... A 250mm carbide with iron L hits like 10-15 dammage its pathetic... i tried dual 250mms on a dominix and it took me hours to kill simple crusiers... No matter what kind of railgun I use they always seem to do terrible dammage.. just pitifull Im kind of angry for wasting sp on gallente bs and railguns My 425 IIs work just fine, as well as my blasters, and I've only got ~5m SP in gunnery. When I max my gunnery, I intend to be on the top of the food chain.
Franken Slammer	Posted - 2005.05.03 01:54:00 - [22] Edited by: Franken Slammer on 03/05/2005 02:04:35 i have a comment: what type of inty pilot are you, if you're flying around a raven long enough for it to lock you? Careless or stupid, i reckon. Thats going to be a minimum of 10secs, right? if you're still there after he's taken that long to lock you up, you knew the risks. and you can always fire defenders until you're out of webby/ scrambler range anyway. Any missile nerf will be nearly unfeasable vs mission runners, as what are the alternatives if cruise and torps are nerfed vs small ships? whats going to happen in lvl 3 and 4 missions?
Citizen Angstrom	Posted - 2005.05.03 07:02:00 - [23] Originally by: Franken Slammer Edited by: Franken Slammer on 03/05/2005 02:04:35 ...Any missile nerf will be nearly unfeasable vs mission runners, as what are the alternatives if cruise and torps are nerfed vs small ships? whats going to happen in lvl 3 and 4 missions? Good point Franken, and one which rarely gets a mention. The thing is, Eve is essentially two games under one roof. PvP and PvE are so radically different, that it's getting hard for CCP to hold it together. Let's look at an example or two. The Pulse laser nerf hit me slightly, as I had a pair of them strapped to my Raven as secondary weapons. They did useful duty because they had just enough range to hit NPC Rats. The nerf against them was introduced because of gate-ganking I understand - strictly a PvP thing - so I had to take them off and replace them with Dual Heavy Modulated beams instead. No biggie. Then there was the MWD/AB nerf. I like speed in EVE, relying on it as my chief defensive method. I could get ~1.5km/s from my Raven pre-nerf, and had a hard time adapting to the change. Why did the change happen? Dual-MWD Ravens were touring 0.0 ganking everything that moved and being un-hittable at 3km/s+. You see the pattern? Lastly let's examine the possible changes to missiles and torps. I engage Level 4 agent NPCs at ~60km warp-in range, and move out to ~90km to get out of their return fire range. In particularly big fights, against multiple groups, I will engage with my torps at ~120km when returning to the spawn point. To counter the webbing or jamming Interceptors, I have to move mighty fast, targetting and allocating torpedo fire at them as a priority. Firing my guns or lasers at them just makes them mad. Changes like those discussed above will greatly effect me and all other NPC-fighting PvE players... CCP must be careful not to 'fix' missiles so well for PvP, that they dismay and discourage PvE happy carebears like me!
Ishmael Hansen	Posted - 2005.05.03 13:14:00 - [24] While the Caldari State may not be nearly as big as that of the Gallenteans, let alone the Amarrians, they are still universally feared and admired. Their economy is strong, and their military might parallel to that of the larger empires. Coupled to the fact that they are more unscrupulous than the Gallenteans and more combative than the Amarrians, this makes them in many ways the most meddlesome of all the empires. Caldari society is steeped in military tradition. As a people, its members had to fight a long and bloody war to gain their independence, and even had to surrender their home planet to their hated enemies, the Gallenteans. It was at this time that the corporations established themselves as the driving force behind creating and maintaining the new Caldari State. Even if the Caldari have not engaged in war for many decades, they still strive to be at the cutting edge of military technology and their vessels, weapons and fighting methods are inferior to none but the enigmatic Jovians. Why do people always want to balance things? If the torps were just so uber everyone would start training them and flying ravens. Think not. There are good and bad things about every setup/module in eve. For every nerf people will just adapt and find another way around it.
Ishmael Hansen	Posted - 2005.05.03 13:40:00 - [25] Edited by: Ishmael Hansen on 03/05/2005 13:58:30 Things I think that need balancing: - Balance every character attribute at the start of the game, or better, max attributes to all of them. - Give Caldari a ship that can: Fit 8 miner's II Fit 8 damage mods Can armor tank from here to eternity Use 15 heavy drones Snipe and insta kill ships at 150km away (well scorp might do it)... get my picture? heck, we can just balance everything that we can only use one ship with the same setup to every one, and have the same skills as all the other players. THAT would be some balancing. Everything would be fair then. If I look hard enough I'll bet I find a post that says that every module is overpowered and another saying the opposite. I like to live with the diferences, I know missiles are a no-brain boring and effective gun, hey that's why I trained them
Manyanga	Posted - 2005.05.03 13:40:00 - [26] Edited by: Manyanga on 03/05/2005 13:40:49 oops

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