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Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
2290
   |
Posted - 2012.11.28 16:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
I bet this will be a short thread...
CSM 7 Secretary
CSM 6 Alternate Delegate
@two_step_eve on Twitter
My Blog
|
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE
Goonswarm Federation
123
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 17:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
First mistake : you didn't named it "CSM election voting system changes", some people will wonder what it is about, others will take it as you are the center of the world and troll you. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
602
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 18:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would have thought this terrible idea was shot down sufficiently enough by now, but I guess not. Are you guys really that worried about re-election?
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
2293
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Posted - 2012.11.28 19:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
The names of *all* of the sessions came from CCP Xhagen, and he was the one that requested this session. It is perfectly permissible for the changes to be no changes at all, but we do need to discuss it.
CSM 7 Secretary
CSM 6 Alternate Delegate
@two_step_eve on Twitter
My Blog
|
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
602
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 19:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Two step wrote:The names of *all* of the sessions came from CCP Xhagen, and he was the one that requested this session. It is perfectly permissible for the changes to be no changes at all, but we do need to discuss it.
Ahh, sounds good, removed my last part then as it's irrelevant :)
I'll get it started, then.
Truthfully I'm not even sure there IS a problem. It's kind of strange to me that this CSM had the issue kickstarted, when it's probably one of the more diverse ones in history. I can't think of a single area of gameplay that isn't represented by at least one council member, save maybe Incursions. Hell, there was even one wormhole candidate whose name I can't recall for some reason who came in 2nd overall in voting, with a fairly comfortable lead over every voting bloc but one! Issler Dainze is also proof positive that even tiny candidates have a chance, and Darius III is proof that the barrier for entry to the council is so small, it's barely a raised curb. Without a few more CSM election's worth of data since CCP decided to actually listen to the CSM in the past few councils, it's really a stretch to say if there's a problem at all.
The only way I could see a problem is if CCP has some kind of survey data or somesuch that says new players aren't voting because of the voting system. I have my doubts about that as well, since they'd have just changed it on their own, and rightly so since their data on the subject would best allow them to tailor the changes to the specified problem. Crowdsourcing it gives me the impression that no such data exists (in that it wasn't ever collected, not that it says different).
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
2294
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Posted - 2012.11.28 19:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Two step wrote:The names of *all* of the sessions came from CCP Xhagen, and he was the one that requested this session. It is perfectly permissible for the changes to be no changes at all, but we do need to discuss it. Ahh, sounds good, removed my last part then as it's irrelevant :) I'll get it started, then. Truthfully I'm not even sure there IS a problem. It's kind of strange to me that this CSM had the issue kickstarted, when it's probably one of the more diverse ones in history. I can't think of a single area of gameplay that isn't represented by at least one council member, save maybe Incursions. Hell, there was even one wormhole candidate whose name I can't recall for some reason who came in 2nd overall in voting, with a fairly comfortable lead over every voting bloc but one! Issler Dainze is also proof positive that even tiny candidates have a chance, and Darius III is proof that the barrier for entry to the council is so small, it's barely a raised curb. Without a few more CSM election's worth of data since CCP decided to actually listen to the CSM in the past few councils, it's really a stretch to say if there's a problem at all. The only way I could see a problem is if CCP has some kind of survey data or somesuch that says new players aren't voting because of the voting system. I have my doubts about that as well, since they'd have just changed it on their own, and rightly so since their data on the subject would best allow them to tailor the changes to the specified problem. Crowdsourcing it gives me the impression that no such data exists (in that it wasn't ever collected, not that it says different).
My main worry is that for less organized communities like w-space or FW, having multiple candidates could mean they wouldn't be able to get anyone on the CSM. I agree with you about CSM7, but my worry is more about the future. I'm not as worried as some about blocking too many nullsec candidates from making the CSM, but I would point you to CSM6 which was nearly all nullsec folks in the top 9. I think if you asked people who were on CSM6, we would have loved to have someone like Hans who knew something about FW on the council.
So my personal preference is to change to a voting system that doesn't penalize multiple candidates from the same community from running. Diversity of playstyles turns out to be really important on the CSM.
CSM 7 Secretary
CSM 6 Alternate Delegate
@two_step_eve on Twitter
My Blog
|
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
2143
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 23:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Less organized communities need to get organized. It is that simple. Any system of attempting to do their organizing for them will be gamed.
General Discussion, Jita Park and specialist forums exist for people to announce their candidacy, policies, attract support and eventually nominate for CSM.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE
Goonswarm Federation
124
|
Posted - 2012.11.28 23:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Two step wrote:The names of *all* of the sessions came from CCP Xhagen, and he was the one that requested this session. It is perfectly permissible for the changes to be no changes at all, but we do need to discuss it.
Well then we'll need to wardec him and not you :P |
Serpentine Logic
Setenta Corp
AL3XAND3R.
2
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Posted - 2012.11.29 01:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
I like Trebor's scheme, being functionally similar to the way the Senate is elected in oz. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
604
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 04:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Serpentine Logic wrote:I like Trebor's scheme, being functionally similar to the way the Senate is elected in oz.
Trebor's system was an embarassment. Not only did it completely disenfranchise certain voters, it would have created an environment that would essentially encourage large voting blocs to run multiple candidates, which leaves even fewer seats for smaller candidates. It was myopic garbage through-and-through.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Serpentine Logic
Setenta Corp
AL3XAND3R.
3
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 07:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Do you have a link to further explanations of your points? |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
604
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 08:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Serpentine Logic wrote:Do you have a link to further explanations of your points?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896048#post1896048 (Posts 11 through 14)
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896161#post1896161
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896196#post1896196
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896248#post1896248
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896387#post1896387
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1896418#post1896418
Those are some of the better quick posts in the massive thread that point out the pretty severe flaws in his system. I linked the posts specifically as the thread degenerated into an utter **** heap after about 10 pages due to a bad combination of angry players and a CSM responding rather poorly to it all (sorry if any CSM takes this personally, but I'm being far more diplomatic about it than I could be).
If you really wanted to talk more specifics of Trebor's system, I would really suggest taking it to that thread, though. It's been discussed ad nauseam already, and there's no need to destroy yet another thread over it.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
None ofthe Above
370
|
Posted - 2012.11.29 15:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
The spoiler effect is very real, and a good reason for someone like Two step to be concerned, since it will have its biggest effect in the smaller communities like wormholers. Which could not only cause Two step to lose his seat, but also cause the WH community to lose it's representation entirely if two strong candidates knock each other out. Fairly likely to happen in the FW community this time around.
I agree with you Snow Axe, the STV (Single Transferrable Vote) variant proposed by Trebor was too easily gamed and was probably a bad idea. I understand he was trying to get the benefit of STV without causing CCP to do a lot of work to revise the voting infrastructure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote
Low Quota (Droop Quota) STV works well in elections where only one position is at stake or in parliamentary system where the goal is to allow a majority party or coalition of parties to gain a majority and be able to govern with a more unified voice.
As the CSM is more of a focus group than a governing body, I would argue that CSM needs diversity. So if STV is to be considered it should be with a higher quota. Perhaps the Hare Quota, or even treat all votes for winning candidates as fulfilled. The CSM7 is more diverse than most of it's predecessors and still gets called out for not representing the playerbase. This isn't to disenfranchise voters; large blocs deserve a seat at the table, but a crowding out smaller interests would not be as helpful for helping guide the development of EVE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_quota
I also agree with Poetic (*GASP*), that the more important and effective thing would be to find ways to increase voter participation. (Don't advocate forced voting, however; random clicks in lieu of an abstention does no one any good.)
Also support the idea that the CSM should elect ALL of its officers including the Chairman from within its ranks. Officers should always be eligible for going to the summit.
Oh and as always: a None of the Above to allow people to cast a vote against the whole group of candidates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/None_of_the_above
EVE is a sandbox; The only "end-game" content in EVE is the crap that makes you rage-quit.
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Scottish Play
Major Kong Freight
6
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 01:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
And if there are changes, do we learn about them immediately after the summit ... or do we get to hear about the changes in April, once they've already been made and it is too late to discuss and/or object to them? |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
2310
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 01:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Scottish Play wrote:And if there are changes, do we learn about them immediately after the summit ... or do we get to hear about the changes in April, once they've already been made and it is too late to discuss and/or object to them?
No *decisions* will be made about any voting system changes without involving the community. In the end, it is CCP's decision to make, but without buy in from the community it would be a bad idea.
CSM 7 Secretary
CSM 6 Alternate Delegate
@two_step_eve on Twitter
My Blog
|
Scottish Play
Major Kong Freight
6
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 02:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Two step wrote:Scottish Play wrote:And if there are changes, do we learn about them immediately after the summit ... or do we get to hear about the changes in April, once they've already been made and it is too late to discuss and/or object to them? No *decisions* will be made about any voting system changes without involving the community. In the end, it is CCP's decision to make, but without buy in from the community it would be a bad idea. Sounds good, then. Thanks for the quick response.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
The Unthinkables
2183
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 02:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
some people think that certain regions are being cruelly suppressed by 0.0
so this is thread where they can registered those complaints to two step
the non-0.0 candidate who received the most votes out of anyone currently on the CSM |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks
Executive Outcomes
543
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 10:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
I still think tghe best solution is:
All players get to vote for 1 candidate, top 14 candidates are elected to the CSM.
Then there is a run off election where the players get to vote for 1 person each for who they want to be on the "main" CSM. The top 7 people are the "main" ones and the others are the deputies or whatever terminology is used for them.
That way then everyone gets some say in the makeup of the CSM even if their candidate isn't elected by avoids really rubbish and easily gamed voting systems like suggested in the past.
Details of why are in the stickied thread, I wrote a lot of :words: there :(
"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
5291
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 20:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Less organized communities need to get organized. It is that simple. Any system of attempting to do their organizing for them will be gamed.
General Discussion, Jita Park and specialist forums exist for people to announce their candidacy, policies, attract support and eventually nominate for CSM.
Precisely. FW got an able and valuable CSM member because they rallied around a single candidate. If people who focus on a single aspect of the game want to get a candidate on the CSM, then that's what they need to do.
Give the low barrier to entry (you only need a candidate who is more plausible thatn Darius III), I'd say that it's reasonable to assume that any fraction of the game that doesn't do this simply isn't motivated enough to. That is, their concerns aren't as deeply felt. CSM 6 was 0.0 heavy because 0.0 focused collectively felt that their part of the game was in danger of collapsing, so they did something about it. "Hi-sec" doesn't feel the same urgency, almost certainly because hi-sec has received a lot of dev attention in the last couple of years, and simply doesn't suffer any issues as serious as the ones that provoked the 0.0-heavy CSM.
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1068
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 08:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:CSM 6 was 0.0 heavy because 0.0 focused collectively felt that their part of the game was in danger of collapsing, so they did something about it. "Hi-sec" doesn't feel the same urgency, almost certainly because hi-sec has received a lot of dev attention in the last couple of years, and simply doesn't suffer any issues as serious as the ones that provoked the 0.0-heavy CSM.
The 0.0-dominated CSM6 was a direct response to the Empire-dominated CSM5 and their extensive discussions on ways to make nullsec sov even more soul-crushingly terrible than it already is.
Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Anna Shoul
18
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 08:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
My 0.02 ISK.
There is a problem with CSM not being very representative of Eve population, completely missing out on many known categories of players, that much is obvious. It's been worse in the past, but the current CSM is not really substantially different. However, the root of this problem isn't the voting system itself, but player awareness. I.e. voter participation, as has been said numerous times in the past.
The root of that problem, in turn, is that there are no information channels which would unify every Eve player, or even a majority of Eve players. They just don't exist. Not the official site, nor these forums are actually universal. (Otherwise, I wouldn't consistently be the first to hear random Eve news in every group I've ever been a member of, no matter how small or large.) The intra-alliance channels for large alliances might cover really large chunks of the population, but that instead leads to the same kind of unfair representation when these are used for campaigning.
The obvious solution of nagging people through the client has the obvious counterargument that people don't like nagging and will probably just abstain to get rid of whatever popup that shows up.
Well, don't nag them. What is needed instead is some kind of a working in-client news service, that would serve as a platform for candidates campaigning, announcing election events, live events, NPC universe flavour, major player activity reports, presented as some kind of a constantly running, unobtrusive feed ticker, which would provide links to in-depth stories, something that everyone could not avoid hearing about by the virtue of being exposed to it more or less constantly, or at least often and for extended periods, but nobody would have to study in depth unless they are so inclined. I'd even say 'a built-in talk radio humming in the background', but there are obvious technical reasons not to do that. If the Incarna had some kind of social environment, playing that feed on video displays in it would do, but it doesn't. Put that ticker on the ship spinning screen then, everyone spends a lot of time docked anyway... At the moment, whatever feeds exist are only visible on the main site, cleverly hidden out of sight and not promoting player awareness in any way.
Until that, the discussion of various voting policies is largely academic and will have comparatively little effect on the end result. |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
631
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 08:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Anna Shoul wrote:There is a problem with CSM not being very representative of Eve population, completely missing out on many known categories of players, that much is obvious.
Name three.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
923
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 09:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Anna Shoul wrote:There is a problem with CSM not being very representative of Eve population, completely missing out on many known categories of players, that much is obvious. Such as?
I think they meant "There is a problem with CSM not being very representative of Eve population's wants and needs, completely missing out on many known categories of players, that much is obvious."
And before you say it, have you seen anyone champion Mission running? So many people do it and it is suicidally boring, It needs a major fix and has barely ever had any resources spent on it.
Frankly it effects more people than Null and has had a lot less spent on it so far and it is so boring.
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
631
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 10:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:And before you say it, have you seen anyone champion Mission running? So many people do it and it is suicidally boring, It needs a major fix and has barely ever had any resources spent on it.
Issler was supposed to. Maybe bug her about it? Or Kelduum for that matter - no way a guy running a highsec corp as big as his doesn't have mission runners.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
5297
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 10:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Snow Axe wrote:Anna Shoul wrote:There is a problem with CSM not being very representative of Eve population, completely missing out on many known categories of players, that much is obvious. Such as? I think they meant "There is a problem with CSM not being very representative of the majority of Eve population's wants and needs, completely missing out on many known categories of players, that much is obvious." And before you say it, have you seen anyone champion Mission running? So many people do it and it is suicidally boring, It needs a major fix and has barely ever had any resources spent on it. Frankly it effects more people than Null and has had a lot less spent on it so far and it is so boring.
Fun fact: people in null run missions too.
I have made quite a few posts saying that missions need to be radically improved (along with the rest of EVE's horrible PvE)
MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
K162
2312
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 14:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
I don't run missions, but I do tend to be one of the folks that bugs CCP about PvE, both in highsec and nullsec. If the mission runners in the game had something specific to be unhappy about, they should organize themselves and get a rep onto the CSM. Have there even been any serious mission runner candidates? If there were, I didn't know about them.
CSM 7 Secretary
CSM 6 Alternate Delegate
@two_step_eve on Twitter
My Blog
|
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
924
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 22:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Frying Doom wrote:And before you say it, have you seen anyone champion Mission running? So many people do it and it is suicidally boring, It needs a major fix and has barely ever had any resources spent on it. Issler was supposed to. Maybe bug her about it? Or Kelduum for that matter - no way a guy running a highsec corp as big as his doesn't have mission runners. Remember, there's a massive difference between the council not having representatives for a style at all vs. the council having underperforming or inadequate representatives.
But no one actually champions it is my point, even Two Step says He bugs CCP about PVE but there is a lot that covers PVE.
As to the candidates maybe you can show me a post were anyone in the peramble to the last election was going out for missions.
As I said missions are sad, probably so sad no one knows where to begin. Not to mention other areas of the game in need of help.
But as usual the main focus for fixes is being pushed for a small amount of the population. Yeah go Null. Go far far away.
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
250
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
There is no need to change the voting system at present.
The problems with a lack of a diverse CSM are three fold. First is voter education. Most voters are unaware of the CSM, what it does, and why it is important. The second reason is voter apathy. Those that are aware of the CSM, but chose not to vote since their game experience is not being impacted by any problems, or anoyances that can't be easily worked around. Finally there is choice paralysis. Yes some candidates were joke run, but the shear dearth of choices for a person to choose a representative from, their diverse views some of which conform to your own in certain aspects but don't in others, is staggering.
This is why Nullsec has had a "presence" in the CSM. They have delt with choice paralysis by only fielding one or a few candidates per alliance or even coalition. Voter apathy is almost non existant since every nullsec resident deals with the problems and anoyances of null (plus CSM 5 showed that apathy tword the CSM had "concequences"), and voter education is facilitated by social media outside of game with forums, jabber broadcasts, tweets, facebook, and even voice comms.
"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
640
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:As to the candidates maybe you can show me a post were anyone in the peramble to the last election was going out for missions..
I'm not going to bother digging out Issler's candidacy post (I have the feeling you're having one of those convenient blank spots, considering you were practically stumping for her), but she was going to be the champion for high sec bears - "hear the bears roar", and all of that. Mining and Missions were two prominently mentioned categories.
Again, the problem is not one of actual representation, it's of poor representation. You can't make the system compensate for poor representation.
"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
649
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 23:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
As has been said many times before, and in other threads by myself. Voter participation is the issue. CCP needs to take major steps to better communicate the CSM elections, as well as make it easier to research than "read persons thread".
Organized player groups can tip the election because they are organized. So the only way you are going to see the system work properly is to lower the bar substantially for the average EVE player to participate.
Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal |
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